What is Cersei's pettiest action ?

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

1 hour ago, Alester Florent said:

I can't remember whether it's in the book and honestly I can't really be bothered to dig out my copy of ASoS to check, especially as I imagine it would have been in AFFC rather than ASoS but did Cersei overrule Margaery on the wedding food going to the poor and redirect it to the kennels in the books, or was that just a show thing? Because if she did, for pure pettiness, I think that's got to be up there.

This one I did happen to look at recently. Craving Peaches is right: it's Melara who suggests that if they never tell anyone, it won't come true. Which makes sense, because Maggy's prophecy about Melara was much worse than about Cersei. Cersei came away thinking she'd still marry Rhaegar, and confused about what the prophecy meant for her children, but that's all in the future anyway. Melara was told she was going to die imminently: she's the one who'll have been terrified. Cersei may later have justified her killing of Melara by saying she needed to keep her quiet, but the way she thinks about her suggests her actual motive at the time was jealousy: she thinks about Melara as "a greedy little schemer with ideas above her station", which can only refer to her dreams of marrying Jaime, and gloats about how "she wasn't quiet in the well".

Of course, both Cersei and Melara were dreaming of marrying up, as girls in that situation do. Even accepting that social status is a valid factor in these things, Melara was just as entitled to dream of marrying Jaime as Cersei was of Rhaegar. But that's not how Cersei thinks, of course.

I don't know, I see it mentioned a lot by people who aren't Jaime fans. "Jaime can't be on a redemption arc because what he did to Bran was so terrible!" was a common response to threads about Jaime's redemption arc back when those happened more frequently, completely ignoring what both "redemption" and "arc" mean, of course.

Even I, an unapologetic Jaime fan, bring it up quite a lot when talking about him, because I think it's an important moment in his character development. Firstly because it's the worst thing he ever does, and therefore the nadir from which he has to climb back to acceptability, but also because - even unwittingly, given that as noted above GRRM's thoughts on Jaime changed during the writing process - there's the fascinating detail that his first instinct was to save Bran and it's only after Cersei pipes up that he pushes him: as clear an illustration of Cersei's being the devil on his shoulder as we get.

Eh, this "greedy little schemer" line is not convincing me at all. It's obvious the whole of the evidence, and it doesn't convince me. I just don't think that the suggestion is Cersei killed Melara because she liked Jaime, and I don't think there is compelling evidence at all that that is the case. No one has convinced me here. It doesn't stop killing your close friend from being a horrible thing...just I don't think it was a motive of jealousy. Again, why wasn't she killing women left and right then? Do you know how many people liked Jaime? Probably a huge number, like a gigantic number. 

Also, the part about Cersei being a devil on Jaime's shoulder...I actually think she does have a bad influence on him...however, nope. Jaime threw Bran becaues Jaime decided to throw Bran. Hmmm, let's put it this way. I am a former alcoholic. I hung out with a lot of people who encouraged my alcoholism. However, in the end, things were always my decision. No one forced me to take the next drink. And now, I actually am able to be around alcohol (some alcoholics cannot) without problem. The change was not that there aren't still people who encourage me to drink more, it is my refusal to ...do just that. And Cersei did not...tell Jaime to throw Bran. He made the decision. It would be like me saying I got trashed because another person said, "I want to drink more," and I gleefully yelled, "Okay," yet somehow blamed that person for me drinking more. It's frankly, ridiculous. 

I like Jaime. I like Jaime's redemption arc, but...as typical in this forum...people have a tendency to either vilify everything a character they dislike does (ie make Cersei's actions worse than they actually were or jump to massive conclusions based..on pretty much nothing that make's her look worse) and excuse/downgrade everything a character they do like does (ie say that somehow it is Cersei's fault that Jaime threw a child out a window despite the fact she has said REPEATEDLY that she DIDN'T want Jaime to do that). 

Listen, Cersei is evil enough on her own, she doesn't need us making up more things to make her worse from random throw-away lines and 0 other evidence. And Jaime has a redemption arc...directly because he was a douche at first. He didn't just throw Bran, he did other horrible things. He kills Jory (and Eddard's other men)...essentially out of spite. It's one of the most evil scenes in the first book as well. He doesn't give a flying fuck about Cleos Frey (both alive and dead)...and constantly talks down to him despite Cleos honestly seeming to be an okay dude. Jaime has many of the same troubling traits as his sister and brother (passed down from their father)....he just also starts questioning some of that shit (and that's what makes his turn inspiring). I love Theon Greyjoy, like absolutely love his arc. But I don't need to defend who he was in ACOK. He was an absoute douche-pickel. He betrayed his ...semi-brother (and other semi-family members) and had people killed that he once supposedly cared about (or at least had a relationship with). But that isn't why I love him. A true redemption arc requires you start out...kind of unlikable (or at least partially unlikable), otherwise it doesn't work.

I think this comes down though...to perhaps our fundamental difference in how we see people. See I think EVERYONE could have a redemption arc. Everyone could have the right circumstances that causes them to start making better decisions/less evil ones/have more empathy for others. Yes, we all do have some legacies from our upbringing...and perhaps our natures...but we can still learn to be better given the right circumstances. Jaime can both have done one of the most evil actions in the books, and be a hero later in the books. He can be both. 

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

1 hour ago, Alester Florent said:

I can't remember whether it's in the book and honestly I can't really be bothered to dig out my copy of ASoS to check, especially as I imagine it would have been in AFFC rather than ASoS but did Cersei overrule Margaery on the wedding food going to the poor and redirect it to the kennels in the books, or was that just a show thing? Because if she did, for pure pettiness, I think that's got to be up there.

I think this is exclusively show. Actually this was the only thing I could come up with that I would really call 'petty' when I was trying to think up an answer for this. Most of her actions are monstrous. It's her motives that are petty and small.

[Craving Peaches]

22 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Again, why wasn't she killing women left and right then?

She also has a maid at CR who had Robert's children sold to slavers out of spite?

I would not underestimate how spiteful Cersei can be...

[Alester Florent]

39 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Eh, this "greedy little schemer" line is not convincing me at all. It's obvious the whole of the evidence, and it doesn't convince me. I just don't think that the suggestion is Cersei killed Melara because she liked Jaime, and I don't think there is compelling evidence at all that that is the case. No one has convinced me here. It doesn't stop killing your close friend from being a horrible thing...just I don't think it was a motive of jealousy. Again, why wasn't she killing women left and right then? Do you know how many people liked Jaime? Probably a huge number, like a gigantic number. 

I think because while she probably suspected, she didn't know. And for much of the period between the Maggy incident and Jaime becoming Kingsguard, she and Jaime were physically separated so the people in her immediate circle wouldn't have had the same opportunity to see and swoon over Jaime.

Also because when Melara said that, there was actually a possibility, albeit remote, of its happening. Melara is from a respectable, if not noble, family, she knows Jaime, it's not inconceivable that she could have somehow manipulated a situation where she married him. It's about the same level of possibility as Robb marrying Jeyne Poole: probably not going to happen, but it could. There's also the question as to the extent of Cersei and Jaime's relationship at the time: they're only ten, so old enough that Cersei has the awakening interest in boys (she has fallen for Rhaegar, after all), but they might not actually be shagging yet (yes, they were messing about when they were younger, but I imagine there was a bit of a gap after Joanna had them separated and before they reached sexual maturity). Their relationship is close but Cersei might not yet be fully confident that Jaime is exlusively hers. So she hears Melara expressing a desire to be with Jaime, even an innocent, fairly childish one, and immediately marks her as a threat - we know Cersei has no tolerance for those.

But once Jaime is Kingsguard, those jealousies will fall away or change in nature because he's officially off the market. Even if other women want him, they can never have him. At that point, allowing them to live, admiring Jaime but never being able to have him, becomes a power move, something she can take satisfaction in.

[Daena the Defiant]

On 12/5/2023 at 7:06 AM, sifth said:

Killing Lady. First off I love dogs, second she knew full well Lady was not the pup that hurt her son, third she also knew that Sansa helped her cover for Joff's behavior, when confronting Robert. So simply because Robert is unwilling to chop off Arya's arm, for the "crime" of hitting Joff with a stick, when he pulled a sword on an innocent boy, Sansa has to lose Lady.

 

This is, of course, the correct answer.

[KingMaekarWasHere]

On 12/4/2023 at 1:23 PM, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

Amongst the many many petty, spiteful, cruel and vindicative actions and crimes comitted by Cersei, which one would you say is truly her pettiest, lowest action that really shows how vile, childish and twisted she is as person ? 

 

Off the top of my head...not giving Robert even just one legitimate child. Not only would it have been easy for her to do, it also would have ensured her and her other children's safety in the long run, but it also may have meant that such a son or daughter would have become king/queen by the end of the series. Thus Cersei may have actually won the Game of Thrones.  

Edited January 3 by KingMaekarWasHere

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

On 12/4/2023 at 1:23 PM, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

Amongst the many many petty, spiteful, cruel and vindicative actions and crimes comitted by Cersei, which one would you say is truly her pettiest, lowest action that really shows how vile, childish and twisted she is as person ? 

One candidate I have in mind and that is less known than her most famous crimes and schemes is how she reacted to a puppet show that portrayed her family, under the form of lion puppets, taking over the kingdom of animals (basically Westeros) only to be devoured by a dragon at the end. Her response was to have two of the puppeteers executed, while having the remaining two, who were females, given to Qyburn so he could use them as test subjects for his inhuman experiments. Not only that but she also ordered that those who watched the show have to pay half of their wealth, or to lose an eye if they don't have money, for treason. 

That's one of her actions that really make me want to see her having the most humiliating downfall and a very slow and excruciating death.

Killing Robert's child that he had with the servant girl from Casterley Rock and selling it's mother .