What are your headcanons for F&B and TWOIAF?

[Floki of the Ironborn]

50 minutes ago, James Steller said:

If Marston Waters hadn’t died during the Secret Siege, Aegon would have taken him up on his offer and ordered him to fall on his sword once he came of age. 

That's a pretty horrific headcanon, you should seek help.
Still, I woudn't have minded that much if Aegon did something as psychopathic as that, because he'd never have commanded the loyalty of the Kingsguard ever again. I'd give it a fortnight before Aegon was quietly murdered and Viserys was put on the throne instead.

Edited December 27, 2023 by Floki of the Ironborn

[Lord Varys]

2 minutes ago, James Steller said:

Much as I love the notion of Aegon purging his Kingsguard and starting from scratch, I doubt that ended up happening. Surely we would have heard rumblings of it by now.

No, I don't think he did it in the story we got. I meant he would have done it if Fell and/or Waters had lasted until the end of the Regency.

But there is still potential for him to sack one of them as a pretext to restore Ser Robert Darklyn ... or not, as we are not actually clear if the KG is up to their Seven when Aegon III comes of age. But the remnants of Aegon II's reign are gone now, as are other KG with Greenish leanings or such beholden to Peake. If I remember correctly, Fell and Waters (plus, perhaps, that Wormwood fellow who may or may not have been a KG) were the only Greens on the KG at the beginning of the Regency, the vacant spots being filled with Blacks. Then we have some deaths which cause Peake to put his cronies in ... and then they are killed in turn, with the new guys brought in likely being loyal to the new king without any old Green affiliations.

I also do expect that Sandoq the Shadow is going to wear a white cloak sooner rather than later. After what he did during the Secret Siege it seems obvious that he will the most crucial instrument of the new government to instill terror in their enemies (and friends). Even if that would not happen for some reason, I do expect the guy to not go back to Lys with Larra, but rather to stay back in KL, then as a sworn shield to Viserys or (some of) his children.

[The hairy bear]

Not that I really believe it, but I often like to imagine that Viserys II is an horrible, horrible person.

I see him as someone who is always trying to rule from the sidelines. The deaths of the three kings that preceded him are suspicious: Aegon III's early death at 36 may have not been entirely natural, the Young Dragon's murderers were immediately forgiven, and Baelor the Blessed's death was widely rumored to have been Viserys's work.

He could also have manipulated his brother into eliminating all dragons out of spite, since he didn't have one. He would have been the one to oversee the education of the princes in ways that ensured that they had no offspring and/or died an early death (war and zealous religious fervor). His would be the idea to close Baelor's sisters in the maidenvault, preventing them from gaining allies and ensuring that they did not marry. After Daena's three escapes, Viserys feared that she would elope and marry someone powerful, so he sent his son Aegon to ensure that a potential rival for the throne suffered public shame and disgrace.

Her wife would know the kind of men he was, and would eventually leave him. Angered by that, Viserys send poisoners to kill her in the Free Cities. His son Aegon would come out the way he came due to all this trauma, not daring to out his father but feeling guilty for all crimes of his sire.

Edited December 27, 2023 by The hairy bear

[Lord Varys]

35 minutes ago, The hairy bear said:

Not that I really believe it, but I often like to imagine that Viserys II is an horrible, horrible person.

I see him as someone who is always trying to rule from the sidelines. The deaths of the three kings that preceded him are suspicious: Aegon III's early death at 36 could not have been entirely natural, the Young Dragon's murderers were immediately forgiven, and Baelor the Blessed's death was widely rumored to have been Viserys's work.

He could also have manipulated his brother into eliminating all dragons out of spite, since he didn't have one. He would have been the one to oversee the education of the princes education in ways that ensured that they had no offspring and/or died an early death (war and zealous religious fervor). His would be the idea to close Baelor's sisters in the maidenvault, preventing them from gaining allies and ensuring that they did not marry. After Daena's three escapes, Viserys feared that she would elope and marry someone powerful, so he sent his son Aegon to ensure that a potential rival for the throne suffered public shame and disgrace.

Her wife would know the kind of men he was, and would eventually leave him. Angered by that, Viserys send poisoners to kill her ind the Free Cities. His son Aegon would come out the way he came due to all this trauma, not daring to out his father but feeling guilty for all crimes of his sire.

Most of that sounds like really weird theorizing, especially since Viserys II's road to the throne is right there, for you or George to take, but they fail to do so:

1. Simply murder Aegon III before he fathers his first child (very easy indeed as Aegon apparently trusted Viserys completely).

If that doesn't work for some strange reason:

2. Remarry to Daena Targaryen 

Viserys is a widower as early as 145 AC, and perhaps technically eligible to remarry from the day Larra left as his was technically a foreign marriage and could thus be easily set aside (it was even part of Alyn's agreement with the Rogares that the marriage would not be set aside for any reason, indicating that this would have been done easily).

By marrying Aegon's eldest daughter it should have been very easy to usurp the throne in 157 AC after his brother's death, with no reason to bother with two demented nephews for 14 more years.

Things like Viserys not insisting on a regency government for the minor Young Dragon or him not actually running the show during the reigns of his nephew strongly indicates the guy was capable as an administrator but not actually all that keen to be in charge.

[SaffronLady]

40 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Things like Viserys not insisting on a regency government for the minor Young Dragon or him not actually running the show during the reigns of his nephew strongly indicates the guy was capable as an administrator but not actually all that keen to be in charge.

I think the hairy bear is just tossing a (funny?) headcanon out instead of really trying to push for it.

[KingAerys_II]

Viserys II warned Daeron he had no dragons to conquer Dorne, Daeron proved to be very competent , more than Orys, Aegon,Rhaenys and Visenya, I mean...Julius Caesar is better than William the Conqueror.

Viserys wanted dornish hostages to die after Daeron death, he disinherited Daena and her sisters to be king, he acknowledged Aegon II as true king . He was very competent,Baelor the blessed was a mad man who destroyed Barth writings

Edited December 27, 2023 by KingAerys_II

[Lord Varys]

3 hours ago, SaffronLady said:

I think the hairy bear is just tossing a (funny?) headcanon out instead of really trying to push for it.

Yeah, I know. I just wanted to point out what's wrong with that idea.

Also, I think a more ruthless Viserys wouldn't have killed any of his nephews necessarily, but his lousy excuse for a son. Viserys must have known long before his death that if there was a danger for the dynasty in the family itself, it was his own eldest son and heir. If anyone might fuck up things for them all, cause another succession war or even a general uprising against House Targaryen it would be Aegon the Unworthy.

[SaffronLady]

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

If anyone might fuck up things for them all, cause another succession war or even a general uprising against House Targaryen it would be Aegon the Unworthy.

And that he certainly did ...

[Alester Florent]

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Yeah, I know. I just wanted to point out what's wrong with that idea.

Also, I think a more ruthless Viserys wouldn't have killed any of his nephews necessarily, but his lousy excuse for a son. Viserys must have known long before his death that if there was a danger for the dynasty in the family itself, it was his own eldest son and heir. If anyone might fuck up things for them all, cause another succession war or even a general uprising against House Targaryen it would be Aegon the Unworthy.

Indeed, especially since Daeron was already of age by that point. Skip straight over an inevitably awful king to perhaps the most capable of the post-Dance era, and no chance for Aegon to fuck things up even more with his beneficence towards Daemon.

[Lord Varys]

41 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

Indeed, especially since Daeron was already of age by that point. Skip straight over an inevitably awful king to perhaps the most capable of the post-Dance era, and no chance for Aegon to fuck things up even more with his beneficence towards Daemon.

I think there is pretty good chance that George will go with that idea, revealing in FaB II that Viserys II never actually names Aegon Prince of Dragonstone but secretly plans to pass over the wastrel for his grandson.

As there is no precedent for this and Daeron married to a Dornish princess, he would tread carefully and slowly with such a plan to have enough support before announcing it publicly.

But then Aegon finds out and has him poisoned.

Could make things more complex and also explain why Aegon would have his cronies besmirch his father's honor posthumously.

Also, Aegon doing that in 'self-defense' would make him more three-dimensional than if he just coveted the throne (I don't think a party prince like him was that keen to rule), not to mention it would also set up a perfect motivation for Aegon's own issues with his son. Him knowing his father 'loved' Daeron more than him could be a great root for suppressed jealousy and anger.

Above I just meant that a monstrous Viserys might have done away with Aegon when the boy was still very young, so Aemon would be his heir and no motivation for KG nonsense. Say, around the time of the Stokeworth scandal. Or at the latest when he had to deal with Merry Meg. While Aegon III yet ruled, the Unworthy must have been a constant embarrassment to Viserys at court.

[maesternewton]

On 12/26/2023 at 8:14 PM, Alester Florent said:

There are a lot of unique names in the Stark tree and we only have a handful of names from before Lynara. Cregan is the first Cregan on the tree: does that mean that his name was introduced from elsewhere?

Of course, they are a lot of unique names in the Stark tree, like Cregan, there difference being those individuals don't have sketchy backgrounds like Lynara Stark. 

On 12/26/2023 at 8:14 PM, Alester Florent said:

More likely, Lynara is a fairly traditional Stark name (or variant of a traditional Stark name; messing around with names to make them slightly different seems to be a Westerosi thing) and this Lynara is merely the first one we know about.

The name is similar to Lianna Velayron.

 

On 12/26/2023 at 8:14 PM, Alester Florent said:

With regard to Sara Snow, the only source for her existence at all is Mushroom, and he is not the most reliable of sources. And unlike his Crownlands gossip, he wasn't within a thousand miles of Winterfell when the supposed affair between Jace and Sara went down, nor did he probably ever even lay eyes on Sara. I think there's a limit to how much weight we can place on this when theorising.

Why would GRRM waste time coming up with this character that doesn't exist? It served no purpose in the plot, so why? The only logic conclusion is that she exists. 

[Willam Stark]

1 hour ago, maesternewton said:

Of course, they are a lot of unique names in the Stark tree, like Cregan, there difference being those individuals don't have sketchy backgrounds like Lynara Stark. 

What do you mean by "sketchy"?

1 hour ago, maesternewton said:

The name is similar to Lianna Velayron.

Not that much.

1 hour ago, maesternewton said:

Why would GRRM waste time coming up with this character that doesn't exist?

Show that Mushroom is not completely reliable and we should take his ramblings with a grain of salt. As Alester Florent said, he wasn't at Winterfell so we have even less reasons to give him credit for what may have happened there.

[Alester Florent]

6 hours ago, maesternewton said:

Why would GRRM waste time coming up with this character that doesn't exist? It served no purpose in the plot, so why? The only logic conclusion is that she exists. 

It may not even have been GRRM who came up with the character. The section of Mushroom's story that talks about Sara Snow may have been written by his co-authors, with GRRM then shedding doubt on that when it comes to his Gyldayn bit.

It also adds historical verisimilitude: there's a lot of stuff in FaB that's mutually contradictory or is just baseless rumour, to make it seem more like a real history, and to encourage us to doubt what we're reading. And as I've mentioned elsewhere, GRRM has never been one to shy away from extraneous, plot-irrelevant detail in ASoIaF in any case.

[Lord Varys]

On 12/28/2023 at 6:09 PM, Alester Florent said:

It may not even have been GRRM who came up with the character. The section of Mushroom's story that talks about Sara Snow may have been written by his co-authors, with GRRM then shedding doubt on that when it comes to his Gyldayn bit.

No, Sara Snow comes directly from the FaB manuscript.

On 12/28/2023 at 6:09 PM, Alester Florent said:

It also adds historical verisimilitude: there's a lot of stuff in FaB that's mutually contradictory or is just baseless rumour, to make it seem more like a real history, and to encourage us to doubt what we're reading. And as I've mentioned elsewhere, GRRM has never been one to shy away from extraneous, plot-irrelevant detail in ASoIaF in any case.

The problem with the idea of Sara Snow being fictional is similar to nobody knowing how exactly Ceryse Hightower died. The KG involved lived on and was eventually tried by Jaehaerys I in the longer, more detailed history of his early reign. It is hard to imagine that this wasn't actually properly investigated since there would be many (potential) witnesses from Maegor's court yet alive. And if it had been investigated, historians would have reported it. It was the death of a queen, after all. 

If Aegon III's reign is covered in similar detail as the Regency era and if the narrator follows Black Aly and Cregan in a similar way he did back in the Regency era ... then we should see a decent enough coverage of Winterfell, perhaps even involving a royal visit there (or a visit of Viserys, Baela, or Rhaena, at least). And if we have that, then Cregan's bastard sister should be there, too. The character is not so obscure as she was not a hidden bastard, supposedly, but one who got to interact with Jacaerys Velaryon. That means she was more visible at Winterfell than Jon Snow was during Robert's visit - where he was not treated as a proper member of the family and had to eat with the lesser guests, etc.

It would not surprise me if the line about Sara Snow perhaps not having existed is going to be cut from future editions if George feels like featuring her in FaB II.

[Lord Varys]

What I do like as theories - 'head canon' is a silly name/concept as it implies that he person 'who has one' does really believe or think that an idea or theory is 'true' rather than just liking the idea - are the following.

1. Aenys and Maegor are both not the Conqueror's biological children.

2. Septon Mattheus is a Florent by birth.

3. The Stinger is the eldest son of Lord Lyman Beesbury and it is a testament of his friendship with Jaehaerys I that he was okay with his end.

3. When Jaehaerys I was approaching death he sent Lord Lyman to Volantis to ask Saera to come back so her father could beg her forgiveness. Since he left only shortly before the Old King dies, he is still away when Viserys I takes the throne which is why Daemon can be named Master of Coin for a time.

4. Mysaria is Saera's firstborn child.

5. Saera's three male bastards at the Great Council remain or return to Westeros, but none of them are ever legitimized. The youngest boy doesn't take ship back to Volantis but joins the Citadel in Oldtown and eventually grows into Maester Gerardys of Dragonstone (the name is so Valyrian that a foreign background makes sense here). This creates a slight problem with Gerardys not trying to mount a dragon, apparently, but one could easily explain that away by him feeling bound by his maester's vows or, perhaps a bit funny, with him being really afraid of heights. The son of the triarch is the eldest son, he and his half-brother return from Volantis with Lord Lyman. Viserys I makes the former his own ward and he eventually becomes Tyland Lannister's immediate predecessor as Master of Ships (his father, the (former) triarch, attends the anniversary tourney of 111 AC and presents the king with 20 Volantene war ships). The latter attaches himself to Daemon, becomes his squire, gets knighted by him, and accompanies him on various Stepstones campaigns. He becomes Daemon's immediate successor as King of the Narrow Sea. Both die some time before the Dance, the Master of Ships a bit later as it makes sense that Tyland would only join the Small Council in the later 120s.

6. I'd include most of Viserys I's character traits and interests from HotD that don't contradict his FaB description.

[maesternewton]

On 12/30/2023 at 7:38 PM, Lord Varys said:

4. Mysaria is Saera's firstborn child.

Why do you think so?

[KingStoneheart]

I don’t think any of mine (that I can think of) are particularly crazy or a hot take as they’re relatively popular theories but for me -

1. Oberyn 100% poisoned Tywin and he was literally away to die within the next couple of hours if Tyrion didn’t kill him

2. Robert is Littlefinger’s bastard

3. The faceless man have something to do with wargs/greensight. Not necessarily all of them but they target greenseers and wargs for their trainees

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

Targaryens and other Valyrian Dragonlords actually have the blood of the dragon inside them, as they have dragon DNA due to some extremely dark and twisted magical experiments and breeding done by Valyria Blood Mages to allow Valyrians to tame and control dragons more easily and faster than with regular taming or dragon horns and other magic artifacts that recquire sacrifices.

This has some side effects, especially  when Targaryens are exposed to blood magic again, and is the source of the horrific disformations of individuals such as Maelys the Monstruous and dragon-hybrid appearances of valyrian babies killed by miscarriages.

 

Before she died Tyanna actually told Maegor that dark truth or that he was born thanks to Visenya having used blood magic to give birth to him, or both. This reveal crushed Maegor and caused him to become depressed and to be so lethargic at dealing with Jaehaerys and Rogar Baratheon, until he eventually killed himself.

[Lord Varys]

On 1/28/2024 at 10:20 PM, maesternewton said:

Why do you think so?

Because Mysaria seems to have an independent connection to the Targaryens. When she accuses Nettles of treason, she wears black-and-red despite the fact that she has no right to wear the royal colors, unless...

In Westeros retainers wear their own colors or none at all. And Mysaria is her very own woman with a pretty loose connection to Rhaenyra.

It is just a guess but could help better with her weird motivation than simple jealousy. Also, the moniker 'Worm' also can allude to a dragon, so there might be something to this.