Gilbert Green Posted January 14 Share Posted January 14 6 hours ago, Him of Many Faces said: Blue winter roses are associated in text with Lyanna, Rhaegar, death, and a newborn child. Yes, that's it, that's the evidence. Also I don't think I should copy paste all of this https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Jon_Snow/Theories#Lyanna_Stark_and_Rhaegar_Targaryen here As an arguable clue in favor of R+L=J, it is a pretty good one. As an argument that no other theories should be allowed, it is pretty awful. We don't even know if GRRM intends this as a clue, or merely as foreshadowing. And we have no idea where the characters will be at the end of the story. Also, blue roses are strongly associated with Lyanna. They are less strongly associated with Rhaegar, except that he knew Lyanna liked blue roses, and gave her some. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gilbert Green Posted January 14 Share Posted January 14 3 hours ago, Him of Many Faces said: Not all interpretations are valid and no text has unlimited ways of being interpreted. There comes a point where you are no longer interpreting text but writing fan fiction in your head. Like I said before, I do see L+R=J as a mystery that can be solved, not one of many possibilities to theorize, because a certain POV makes no sense without it. And this is why I do not like the parentage theories regarding Jon. I do not consider any other possibility than Lyanna and Rhaegar valid. The difference between you and me is not that I write fan fiction and you do not. The difference is that I am humble about what I know and do not now, and see many possibilities. 3 hours ago, Him of Many Faces said: don't really know what else to say about this. I am not open to change my point of view unless someone can rethink the entire blue winter rose motif and symbolism. That we maybe don't know what the blue rose signifies, and won't know till the series ends, seems to me a perfectly reasonable possibility. What's your idea? That Jon is a blue rose? Maybe. Maybe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Him of Many Faces Posted January 14 Author Share Posted January 14 21 minutes ago, Gilbert Green said: The difference between you and me is not that I write fan fiction and you do not. The difference is that I am humble about what I know and do not now, and see many possibilities. My comment about fanfiction was broader and not targeted at you. But yes, I am not humble and not open to every interpretation of this story. 22 minutes ago, Gilbert Green said: That we maybe don't know what the blue rose signifies, and won't know till the series ends, seems to me a perfectly reasonable possibility. We do know what it signifies. 23 minutes ago, Gilbert Green said: What's your idea? That Jon is a blue rose? Maybe. Maybe. Like I've said before, the blue roses are a motif, but yes, you could say that they are symbolically Jon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gilbert Green Posted January 14 Share Posted January 14 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Him of Many Faces said: But yes, I am not humble and not open to every interpretation of this story. If you enjoy argument, argue. If you don't enjoy argument, let others be. And when future books come out, feel free to say "I told you so". As long as you are not too mean spirited about it, a little gloating is fine. My personal opinion is that Jon is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, but was not the child born at the TOJ. But I am wrong about that, feel free to say "I told you so" when future books come out. I can certainly imagine myself being wrong. Edited January 14 by Gilbert Green Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Him of Many Faces Posted January 14 Author Share Posted January 14 3 minutes ago, Gilbert Green said: If you enjoy argument, argue. If you don't enjoy argument, let others be. You have clearly misunderstood my comment about people needing to move on as me trying to send everyone who disagrees with R+L=J to a concentration camp to reread AGoT or something. Remind you, we are in a thread about theories we hate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaffronLady Posted January 14 Share Posted January 14 4 hours ago, Him of Many Faces said: I do see L+R=J as a mystery that can be solved, not one of many possibilities to theorize, because a certain POV makes no sense without it. On to a more specific point, do you have an idea when Jon was born? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Him of Many Faces Posted January 14 Author Share Posted January 14 2 minutes ago, SaffronLady said: On to a more specific point, do you have an idea when Jon was born? He was born near the end of Robert's rebellion. kissdbyfire 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaffronLady Posted January 14 Share Posted January 14 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Him of Many Faces said: He was born near the end of Robert's rebellion. So you stand with the ToJ version of R+L=J. I see. Not that I understand "present day" (280~300AC) theories that well, just that I have seen "R+L=J, but Jon was born shortly after Robert's Rebellion started". Edited January 14 by SaffronLady Clarification Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Him of Many Faces Posted January 14 Author Share Posted January 14 1 minute ago, SaffronLady said: So you stand with the ToJ version of R+L=J. I see. Not that I understand "present day" (280~300AC) theories that well, just that I have seen "R+L=J, but Jon was born shortly after Robert's Rebellion started". Yeah, I believe that child born in the tower is Jon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gilbert Green Posted January 14 Share Posted January 14 23 minutes ago, Him of Many Faces said: You have clearly misunderstood my comment about people needing to move on as me trying to send everyone who disagrees with R+L=J to a concentration camp to reread AGoT or something. Remind you, we are in a thread about theories we hate. Well, I don't hate any theories. I merely agree or disagree. Nor do I think people need to move on merely because they disagree with my theories. I never said anything about concentrations camps either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gilbert Green Posted January 14 Share Posted January 14 Another person's theory is nothing more than his guess about where the story is headed. And it's not up to him. It's up to GRRM. The only reason to be upset by someone else's guess, is because you are terrified that it is correct. So I guess it makes sense that the most hated theories always have some evidence supporting them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted January 14 Share Posted January 14 4 hours ago, kissdbyfire said: Or Sansa will resume her marriage to Tyrion, and ask his forgiveness for not consummating their marriage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mourning Star Posted January 14 Share Posted January 14 8 hours ago, sifth said: Again, Bran literally tells us Bloodraven takes the form of a three eyed crow, in the final Bran chapter published. Bran also tells us he's training him in this form, in that chapter. I don't know how more on the nose George can be with this. this does not happen 8 hours ago, sifth said: Listen, I get it, it's been nearly 13 years since the last book. We're all looking for things we might have missed from these novels, but sometimes a spade is a spade. this isn't a new idea Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted January 14 Share Posted January 14 2 hours ago, SeanF said: Or Sansa will resume her marriage to Tyrion, and ask his forgiveness for not consummating their marriage. That’s even worse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted January 14 Share Posted January 14 22 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said: That’s even worse. Not as bad as Sansa saying she’d have remained “a little bird”, if it weren’t for Ramsay raping her. Or Tyrion’s “first they came for the slave traders, and I did not speak up …” speech. The show took every bad idea and theory, and then they ran with it. kissdbyfire, Aldarion and Him of Many Faces 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted January 14 Share Posted January 14 2 hours ago, SeanF said: Or Tyrion’s “first they came for the slave traders, and I did not speak up …” speech. Daenerys was acting like a proto-fascist by the end of that but not because she killed the slavers. Aldarion and SeanF 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted January 14 Share Posted January 14 7 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said: Daenerys was acting like a proto-fascist by the end of that but not because she killed the slavers. It is such an appallingly bad take on history, for D & D to apply Niemoller’s prose poem to an anti-slavery campaign Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Him of Many Faces Posted January 14 Author Share Posted January 14 (edited) Actually let's just leave this be. Edited January 14 by Him of Many Faces decided to stop kissdbyfire 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gilbert Green Posted January 14 Share Posted January 14 (edited) 15 minutes ago, Him of Many Faces said: No one who hates a silly theory like the Daario=Benjen whatever is afraid it's actually true. Nobody hates Daario = Benjen. It's a joke. I don't believe you. The one people hate is Daario = Euron. But that one is indeed supported by evidence. Hence the hate. There are things I will probably dislike if GRRM writes them. Like Jon finding out his sister is not really his sister so he can eff her. I remember an old Fantasy Island episode like that, and it made me gag. But I'm prepared for the eventuality. Because GRRM might not feel about it the same way as I do, and it is not as though it is not supported by some evidence. Edited January 14 by Gilbert Green Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaffronLady Posted January 14 Share Posted January 14 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Gilbert Green said: Nobody hates ... a joke. Well, not for the first time. But you know, if someone insists that "Cersei is a loving mother", makes comparisons to other characters of entirely different scope and magnitude of evil just to prove she is a loving mother, and posts over a dozen threads to that end, even jokes could run the full course of funny to annoying to hated. Edited January 14 by SaffronLady Just so we are clear, I'm not saying you are the one posting these threads. But this is the hate vent thread, and your post happened to be relevant to my hate, so I replied to you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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