Your Most Hated ASOIAF theory

[Gilbert Green]

2 hours ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

I'm cheering for the good ones.

Are there good wights in the story?

I'm suspicious of them all.    Even Beric.   Yeah, he seemed semi-ok at first.  But then he created Lady Stoneheart. 

Maybe I'm prejudiced by my Christian background, with its prohibitions of necromancy.  Also by old-school stories of this type, where waking the dead is always bad news.  "The Monkey's Paw, "Herbert West - Reanimator", "Pet Sematary".   There's also a great piece of forgotten Victorian literature called "Wake Not the Dead", where a man resurrects his wife.  The story goes on and on and ON, and things just keep getting worse and WORSE and WORSE.  I found it hilarious.

Edited January 15 by Gilbert Green

[LongRider]

On 1/12/2024 at 1:42 PM, kissdbyfire said:

Ice wights VS fire wights

Let them fight!

On 1/12/2024 at 1:40 PM, kissdbyfire said:

So something happened there, either during the wightification process

Well, what is the wightification process though?  How do the run of the mill wights behind Wall go from being dead to being walking dead?  Are they associated with the Others or not?  It's not clear how wights get animated, and if they are actually under Other control.  Who controls Coldhands?  The CotF know some about him, and that's where we get our info on him.  Is it accurate?    All these dead heads running around and hardly anything is known about them. 

[kissdbyfire]

11 minutes ago, LongRider said:

Let them fight!

Well, what is the wightification process though?  How do the run of the mill wights behind Wall go from being dead to being walking dead?  Are they associated with the Others or not?  It's not clear how wights get animated, and if they are actually under Other control. 

All very good questions that we will know the answers to when Mr. Martin is good and ready to make the reveal.

11 minutes ago, LongRider said:

Who controls Coldhands?  The CotF know some about him, and that's where we get our info on him. 

I don’t think anyone/anything controls him. I think he is truly aligned w/ Bloodraven and the CotF. 

11 minutes ago, LongRider said:

Is it accurate?    All these dead heads running around and hardly anything is known about them. 

I think what little we learn about him from the CotF is accurate. But it’s so very little that it really doesn’t amount to anything major; perhaps the most - or only - truly relevant bit of info we get from the CotF is that Coldhands “died long ago”. 

[Mourning Star]

On 1/14/2024 at 7:53 AM, SaffronLady said:

 

Bran III, ADWD.

At least, Bran thinks BR is 3EC. POV style writing conveniently gives GRRM wiggle room that Bran is wrong.

Pretty disingenuous quoting if I'm honest... even if it wasn't intended.

Quote

The sight of him still frightened Bran—the weirwood roots snaking in and out of his withered flesh, the mushrooms sprouting from his cheeks, the white wooden worm that grew from the socket where one eye had been. He liked it better when the torches were put out. In the dark he could pretend that it was the three-eyed crow who whispered to him and not some grisly talking corpse.
One day I will be like him. The thought filled Bran with dread. Bad enough that he was broken, with his useless legs. Was he doomed to lose the rest too, to spend all of his years with a weirwood growing in him and through him? Lord Brynden drew his life from the tree, Leaf told them. He did not eat, he did not drink. He slept, he dreamed, he watched. I was going to be a knight, Bran remembered. I used to run and climb and fight. It seemed a thousand years ago.
What was he now? Only Bran the broken boy, Brandon of House Stark, prince of a lost kingdom, lord of a burned castle, heir to ruins. He had thought the three-eyed crow would be a sorcerer, a wise old wizard who could fix his legs, but that was some stupid child's dream, he realized now. I am too old for such fancies, he told himself. A thousand eyes, a hundred skins, wisdom deep as the roots of ancient trees. That was as good as being a knight. Almost as good, anyway.

Sort of left out the important leading line where Bran is pretty clear BR isn't the 3EC.

Edited January 16 by Mourning Star

[SaffronLady]

7 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

Sort of left out the important leading line where Bran is pretty clear BR isn't the 3EC.

And I must say this leading line is where Bran makes it clear he does not like seeing corpses. He is still a boy, after all, nothing shows he either grew out of death revulsion or could discern between what he sees with waking eyes and what he sees in dreams.

[Mourning Star]

4 hours ago, SaffronLady said:

And I must say this leading line is where Bran makes it clear he does not like seeing corpses. He is still a boy, after all, nothing shows he either grew out of death revulsion or could discern between what he sees with waking eyes and what he sees in dreams.

A three-eyed crow should have three eyes. He has only one, and that one red. 

I think Bran gives the reader repeated hints that BR isn't the Three Eyed Crow.

But, again this isn't crazy deep or new, plenty of people have been saying this since Dance released. I'm just always surprised that the BR=3EC theory persists. Largely I think it can be attributed to the depiction of the three eyed raven in the tv show.

[SaffronLady]

5 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

A three-eyed crow should have three eyes. He has only one, and that one red. 

I think Bran gives the reader repeated hints that BR isn't the Three Eyed Crow.

You interpret this as GRRM hinting BR isn't 3EC. Perhaps you are even correct.

But Bran being startled by broken expectations is just as valid. He, as a child, expected a friendly-looking miracle. BR is neither. And that may be all there is to the sentence you quoted.

And just for context I never watched the show as far as seeing BR on-screen.

[sifth]

2 hours ago, SaffronLady said:

You interpret this as GRRM hinting BR isn't 3EC. Perhaps you are even correct.

But Bran being startled by broken expectations is just as valid. He, as a child, expected a friendly-looking miracle. BR is neither. And that may be all there is to the sentence you quoted.

And just for context I never watched the show as far as seeing BR on-screen.

On the show, Bloodraven is the Three Eyed Raven. Why they changed the bird from a crow to a raven, I'll never know. Heck they never even give you Bloodraven's real name on the show, he's just always refereed to as The Three Eyed Raven, who has a million eyes and one.

[SaffronLady]

18 minutes ago, sifth said:

On the show, Bloodraven is the Three Eyed Raven. Why they changed the bird from a crow to a raven, I'll never know. Heck they never even give you Bloodraven's real name on the show, he's just always refereed to as The Three Eyed Raven, who has a million eyes and one.

I meant I stopped watching after the Red Wedding. It was too much.

[Phylum of Alexandria]

20 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

I think Bran gives the reader repeated hints that BR isn't the Three Eyed Crow.

This is my take that I wrote upon a re-read (tldr: it's debatable!)

Fly, a voice whispered in the darkness, but Bran did not know how to fly, so all he could do was fall.”

Who is the Three Eyed Crow? What seemed so obvious in earlier books was complicated somewhat by Bran’s second chapter in ADWD:

"Come now. It is warmer down deep, and no one will hurt you there. He is waiting for you."

"The three-eyed crow?" asked Meera.

"The greenseer." And with that she was off, and they had no choice but to follow. 

"Are you the three-eyed crow?" Bran heard himself say. A three-eyed crow should have three eyes. He has only one, and that one red. Bran could feel the eye staring at him, shining like a pool of blood in the torchlight. Where his other eye should have been, a thin white root grew from an empty socket, down his cheek, and into his neck.

"A … crow?" The pale lord's voice was dry. His lips moved slowly, as if they had forgotten how to form words. "Once, aye. Black of garb and black of blood." The clothes he wore were rotten and faded, spotted with moss and eaten through with worms, but once they had been black. "I have been many things, Bran. Now I am as you see me, and now you will understand why I could not come to you … except in dreams. I have watched you for a long time, watched you with a thousand eyes and one. I saw your birth, and that of your lord father before you. I saw your first step, heard your first word, was part of your first dream. I was watching when you fell. And now you are come to me at last, Brandon Stark, though the hour is late.”

Some people take the uncertainty about the crow in these scenes to suggest that someone other than Bloodraven will be revealed as the real three-eyed crow. Of course, this unorthodox interpretation raises the question of how Bloodraven would know of Bran and be awaiting his arrival if he didn’t communicate with him in his dreams. And it doesn’t jive with Bloodraven’s own statement above that he indeed visited Bran in dreams. My inclination is to believe the greenseer when he tells us that he was doing greenseer stuff.

But it is nevertheless a perfectly appropriate question to ask, why did GRRM decide to add those complicating details with respect to the identity of the three-eyed crow? Why not simply have Leaf and Bloodraven answer with a “Yes, Bran!” and be done with it?

One possibility is that GRRM wants to amplify feelings of uncertainty and unknowability when depicting magic and other weird phenomena. If you’ve read A Song for Lya, think back to the question of whether the Greeshka was unconscious, or whether its consciousness simply eluded the human telepaths. The question is left unresolved, even by the story’s end. There will likely be some aspects to ASOIAF’s magic that are similarly left ambiguous to keep readers scratching their heads. The consciousness and agency of weirwoods is one possible example, and exactly how green dreams work is another.

Another possibility is that there is a known structure to psy magic that will eventually be revealed in the story, and the ambiguity here is setting up some sort of plot function. It was after all a dream in which Bran talked to the 3EC, rather than a direct observation or communication. It might be that any message a greenseer sends to a dreamer manifests in ways that the greenseer doesn’t know and cannot see. If this sort of “refraction” mechanic ends up playing a role in green dreams, then I can’t completely discount the possibility that another greenseer—including a time-tampering Bran—could also be interfering with these dreams, at least sometimes. I don’t lean strongly that way, but I can’t reject it out of hand either. 

[Gilbert Green]

On 1/15/2024 at 7:00 PM, kissdbyfire said:

I don’t think anyone/anything controls him. I think he is truly aligned w/ Bloodraven and the CotF.

He is, I guess, a dead thing, and is aligned with the forces of Death.

And, I guess, Bloodraven and the CotF are aligned with HIM.

It is not generally good news, when you have zombie associates.  But maybe I'm too much of a traditionalist.

Edited January 17 by Gilbert Green

[Mourning Star]

18 hours ago, SaffronLady said:

You interpret this as GRRM hinting BR isn't 3EC. Perhaps you are even correct.

There are many hints/reasons to believe this, yes.

18 hours ago, SaffronLady said:

But Bran being startled by broken expectations is just as valid.

I disagree. 

Not only are they not equivalent, but right here Bran’s expectation is: “He had thought the three-eyed crow would be a sorcerer, a wise old wizard who could fix his legs, but that was some stupid child's dream, he realized now.”

And, Bloodraven is a wise old wizard!  And the three eyed crow was from a child’s dream… this line screams irony!

18 hours ago, SaffronLady said:

He, as a child, expected a friendly-looking miracle. BR is neither. And that may be all there is to the sentence you quoted.

It doesn’t explain Bran asking Bloodraven point blank and BR not even understanding the question.

This hand waving away all the little details and ignoring the complete story is exactly what I mean when I say I’m shocked that it isn’t accepted by the fandom that BR is not the 3EC.

18 hours ago, SaffronLady said:

And just for context I never watched the show as far as seeing BR on-screen.

Fair enough.

3 hours ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

Of course, this unorthodox interpretation raises the question of how Bloodraven would know of Bran and be awaiting his arrival if he didn’t communicate with him in his dreams. And it doesn’t jive with Bloodraven’s own statement above that he indeed visited Bran in dreams. My inclination is to believe the greenseer when he tells us that he was doing greenseer stuff.

Hard disagree, in fact Bloodraven never claims to have spoken to Bran in his dreams, and the crow is not the only being who appears in Bran’s dreams.

Now I am as you see me, and now you will understand why I could not come to you … except in dreams. I have watched you for a long time, watched you with a thousand eyes and one. I saw your birth, and that of your lord father before you. I saw your first step, heard your first word, was part of your first dream. I was watching when you fell. And now you are come to me at last, Brandon Stark, though the hour is late."

BR watches, he saw, was part of, was watching… never claims that he spoke to Bran.

BR was probably the brooding Weirwood, who appeared in Bran’s falling dream and again later in his dreams, and was clearly distinct from the crow. Melisandre’s vision of Bran and BR also aligns with this image of him. 

From the first falling dream:

At the heart of the godswood, the great white weirwood brooded over its reflection in the black pool, its leaves rustling in a chill wind. When it felt Bran watching, it lifted its eyes from the still waters and stared back at him knowingly.

And, from Bran later:

And there's dreams where the crow comes and tells me to fly. Sometimes the tree is in those dreams too, calling my name. That frightens me. But the worst dreams are when I fall." 

And from Melisandre:

A wooden face, corpse white. Was this the enemy? A thousand red eyes floated in the rising flames. He sees me. Beside him, a boy with a wolf's face threw back his head and howled.

Edited January 17 by Mourning Star

[Phylum of Alexandria]

30 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

Hard disagree, in fact Bloodraven never claims to have spoken to Bran in his dreams, and the crow is not the only being who appears in Bran’s dreams.

If you read my whole comment, I concede that it's possible someone else is part of the dream mix. So it sounds like a softer disagree than you are saying.

I still don't quite buy it, but I can acknowledge that there's room for that interpretation, and at very least it was written ambiguously by GRRM.

[Mourning Star]

2 minutes ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

If you read my whole comment, I concede that it's possible someone else is part of the dream mix. So it sounds like a softer disagree than you are saying.

I still don't quite buy it, but I can acknowledge that there's room for that interpretation, and at very least it was written ambiguously by GRRM.

I think it’s ambiguous who the three eyed crow is still (although I have my opinions), but it’s pretty clearly not Bloodraven, and that’s why I’m always surprised and hate the theories about him being the three eyed crow.

Fun fact, GRRM invented the phrase, the crow calls the raven black, and uses it in some form in every book (as well as dunk and egg).

Raven’s and crows also don’t get along.

When the ravens came the crows would scatter, only to return the moment the larger birds were gone.

And I love this conversation between Aemon and Jon so much but this is the part to highlight here:

"The crow is the raven's poor cousin. They are both beggars in black, hated and misunderstood."

Jon wished he understood what they were talking about, and why. What did he care about ravens and doves? If the old man had something to say to him, why couldn't he just say it?

[Gilbert Green]

37 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

I think it’s ambiguous who the three eyed crow is still (although I have my opinions), but it’s pretty clearly not Bloodraven, and that’s why I’m always surprised and hate the theories about him being the three eyed crow.

I don't think Bran realizes that BR is not the 3EC.  I think @SaffronLady is correct, that all the clues that suggest BR is not the 3EC can be read as Bran's opinion that BR is a disappointing 3EC.

If Bran actually realizes your position, he ought to be reacting more strongly.  He ought to be warning his companions that they have been intercepted by a potential enemy, and are being diverted from their quest.

Hence, to the extent that Bran's opinions can be identified with the surface position of the text; I think it is fair to say that "BR=3EC" is surface text; and "BR=/=3EC" is theory.

That said, I am down with the theory.

[SaffronLady]

5 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

Not only are they not equivalent, but right here Bran’s expectation is: “He had thought the three-eyed crow would be a sorcerer, a wise old wizard who could fix his legs, but that was some stupid child's dream, he realized now.”

And, Bloodraven is a wise old wizard!  And the three eyed crow was from a child’s dream… this line screams irony!

Tis' about as ironic as the Tragedy of Darth Plagueis the Wise. BR is not a wise old wizard who could fix his legs. Bran chastises himself about being a child for having stupid dreams. End of story.

5 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

It doesn’t explain Bran asking Bloodraven point blank and BR not even understanding the question.

This hand waving away all the little details and ignoring the complete story is exactly what I mean when I say I’m shocked that it isn’t accepted by the fandom that BR is not the 3EC.

Do we know how "dream-crossing" works in ASOIAF magic? Is it a given that not only there are permanent "dream-selves", but the "dream-crosser" knows what their "dream-selves" look like? If not, it remains possible BR is both the tree and the crow. If not, it is entirely reasonable BR does not understand when Bran outright asks him "Are you the 3EC" without further clarification.

Quote

"Are you the three-eyed crow?" Bran heard himself say. A three-eyed crow should have three eyes. He has only one, and that one red. Bran could feel the eye staring at him, shining like a pool of blood in the torchlight. Where his other eye should have been, a thin white root grew from an empty socket, down his cheek, and into his neck.

"A … crow?" The pale lord's voice was dry. His lips moved slowly, as if they had forgotten how to form words. "Once, aye. Black of garb and black of blood."

Seriously, if your theory is not convincing people, ask before you defend. At least know why you're not persuading people to your position before you handwave all the little holes in your sieve of a theory away.

I fail to see from the lines you quote that shows Bran knows BR isn't the 3EC.

[sifth]

GRRM literally said in an interview, that he planned for the Three Eyed Crow to be a character connected to House Targaryen back in the first book. This alone confirmed it for me. Well that and the fact that Bran literally tells us that BR turns into a crow, while training him in his dreams. He even says the iconic line, that he will teach Bran how to fly.

[Gilbert Green]

2 hours ago, SaffronLady said:

I fail to see from the lines you quote that shows Bran knows BR isn't the 3EC.

Sure, but ...

This preoccupation with what Bran subjectively BELIEVES is rather distracting us from the question of whether Bloodraven actually IS the 3EC.

Because if you go by what Bran objectively sees and hears, there is plenty of room for doubt, and plenty that seems to point towards the opposite conclusion. @Mourning Star has shown that much, at least.

Bran even talks about shutting his eyes so he can pretend.  How relevant, then, can his beliefs really be?

[SaffronLady]

1 hour ago, Gilbert Green said:

Sure, but ...

This preoccupation with what Bran subjectively BELIEVES is rather distracting us from the question of whether Bloodraven actually IS the 3EC.

Because if you go by what Bran objectively sees and hears, there is plenty of room for doubt, and plenty that seems to point towards the opposite conclusion. @Mourning Star has shown that much, at least.

Bran even talks about shutting his eyes so he can pretend.  How relevant, then, can his beliefs really be?

Given the structure of ASOIAF, povs are everything.

But as a personal preference, my pet theory of the 3EC's true identity is

Spoiler

Howland Reed

because, most importantly, he isn't a Targ.

[Gilbert Green]

5 hours ago, SaffronLady said:

Given the structure of ASOIAF, povs are everything.

POVs (collectively) may be everything.  But it does not follow that a POV's beliefs, as distinguished from that POV's objective observations, are everything.  That was the distinction I drew, and you're kinda ignoring what I actually said.

Jon Snow might not be Ned's bastard, even if a POV believes it.

Edited January 18 by Gilbert Green