Who Fathered Maegor the Cruel?

[Hippocras]

The offical story that he was fathered by Aegon I remains possible but, signs suggest Aegon was infertile. So who do you think did the deed?

My top candidate? Robin Darklyn. Named to the first Kingsguard in 10 AC (Maegor was born in 12 AC). From the Crownlands so sworn directly to Aegon and Visenya. Proximity to Harrenhal? Check. Loyal to Maegor? Check. Vague dark magic suggestion? Check. Valyrian descent? .... We have no confirmation of Valyrian descent. But....

We do have confirmation that the Darklyns of Duskendale and Mootons of Maidenpool did not yield easily to Aegon, which suggests at the very least that they did not see why Aegon should take precedence over them. In other words they felt they had as much or more right to rule as Aegon did and were proud. We also have been told that the Celtigars of the time were of Valyrian descent. Their island lies just off of Crackclaw Point which the Celtigars claim dominion over, and which is also historically associated with the coastal road, the long way between Maidenpool and Duskendale. In other words, chances are reasonable that the Celtigars of the time shared blood with the Mootons and/or Darklyns. What remains unclear is their relationship to House Hoare, who may have still been overlords of Duskendale at the time of the conquest. It is unlikely, based on what we know of the history, that Darklyns were Andals or anything more than superficial followers of the Fot7. So part-Valyrian certainly seems possible if not explicitly indicated.

I find their history against House Bar Emmon to be particularly interesting. House Bar Emmon was zealously Andal, and at the time of the conquest clearly linked in some vague way by blood to Houses Targaryen and Velaryon. If the early history post-conquest is setting up hints of opposing branches, as represented by the descendants of Rhaenys vs. the "descendants" (influence shadow) of Visenya, then this is the root of it IMO.

My best guess, based on other thought-branches explored elsewhere which I will not get into here, is that the Darklyns may very well have descended from a passed-over female branch of House Targaryen.

Edited February 6 by Hippocras

[James Steller]

Considering that Maegor’s offspring proved to be unnatural monstrosities (if the records can be believed) and considering how strangely powerful and strong he was from an early age, and also how unstable and psychopathic he was, my guess is that he had no “father” in that sense. Visenya doesn’t strike me as someone who’d sleep around like Rhaenys did. I’m guessing that she used some kind of sorcery and black magic to create the perfect heir, and it came with consequences that she didn’t anticipate.

[Hippocras]

5 minutes ago, James Steller said:

Considering that Maegor’s offspring proved to be unnatural monstrosities (if the records can be believed) and considering how strangely powerful and strong he was from an early age, and also how unstable and psychopathic he was, my guess is that he had no “father” in that sense. Visenya doesn’t strike me as someone who’d sleep around like Rhaenys did. I’m guessing that she used some kind of sorcery and black magic to create the perfect heir, and it came with consequences that she didn’t anticipate.

I agree and disagree. The use of magic to conceive is likely. Conception without sperm.... less so.

[TheLastWolf]

3 minutes ago, Hippocras said:

I agree and disagree. The use of magic to conceive is likely. Conception without sperm.... less so.

Even the shadow baby requires Stannis to stick it 

[Landis]

Gargon Qoherys

[Hippocras]

The early Targ tree is vague but the suggestion of branches certainly exists. Aenar arrived on Dragonstone with more than one wife, some siblings (some of whom may have been his wives) and an unspecified number of children. His two co-heirs on Dragonstone Gaemon and Daenys are indicated of course, but he could easily have had more. I consider it very possible that he had other family members who he installed via marriages in the vicinity of Dragonstone.

Split 1: Securing Island(s) (Previous House on Dragonstone, possibly Velaryon, possibly Celtigar)

Daenys then had a son Aegon, a daughter Elaena, and another daughter who married some lord. This is the first explicit indication of an out-of-family marriage alliance with a family in Westeros. Which Lord? These two may have had more children as well.

Split 2: Mainland footholds Massey's Hook (Bar Emmon?)

Next comes the first clear indication of a first-born's children possibly being passed over. Maegon was Lord before his brother Aerys but either had no children, only daughters, or a son still an infant when his father died. The name is similar to Maegor so this IMO is the strongest candidate for founder of the branch that eventually provided a father for Maegor.

Split 3: Crackclaw Point and environs foothold (Darklyn?)

In the next generation not one but TWO older brothers were Lords of Dragonstone without their children inheriting. Aelyx and Baelon also could easily have had one or more daughters who married into other Houses, and who are not yet indicated on the tree. By this point, any extra girls/cousins would most likely be marrying into Houses that already had a drop of Targ blood from previous splits, however those Houses would have spread their own descendants through their regions and trade networks and could potentially have been quite far flung by this point. For example a single (productive) early marriage into House Bar Emmon could have resulted in drops of Targ blood being passed to Houses Massey, Tarth, Estermont, and other mainland coastal Houses of the Stormlands and the Vale, as well as back in to House Velaryon of course.

Similarly a single early marriage into House Celtigar could have resulted easily in indirect spread all over the Northern Crownlands and to the regions where the Celtigars travelled and traded.

  

32 minutes ago, Landis said:

Gargon Qoherys

I was tempted by this too, and I very much think House Qoherys has a role in the influence shadow of Visenya, just IMO less directly.

I think this house is linked to the creation of the swords Blackfyre and Dark Sister. I also think House Harroway descended from them, and that descendants of Harroways remained after Maegor's purge under different names.

But Gargon was fat, foolish, and a very poor candidate for fathering a potential King which was, after all, Visenya's goal. He doesn't seem like someone Visenya would have trusted with such an important secret.

 

Edited February 6 by Hippocras

[Landis]

22 minutes ago, Landis said:

Gargon Qoherys

Should also add: Visenya arranged a double marriage between the Blackwoods and the Brackens, both of which were vassals of Harrenhal during the Conquest. Gargon’s famed practice of the lord’s right to the first night might have originated at this time, when he was newly come to his role as Lord of Harrenhal (9 AC).
 

Theoretically, Gargon would have taken the first night of the Bracken husband, and Visenya used this as a means to gauge Gargon’s fertility (we can safely assume, I think, that both of his parents were at the very least Valyrian). The Blackwood woman bore a “Bracken” child, and so she then immediately went about getting herself pregnant via Gargon as well, perhaps disguising herself. 
 

This would also provide a lens through which to read the relationships between Maegor and the two Brackens living during his time, at least one of which (Olyvar, perhaps), might have been his half-brother. That both Bracken boys ultimately turned on him would also be conceivable if it was understood that their claim to Stone Hedge had been usurped by Visenya allowing Gargon to father a bastard on their Blackwood mother.

[Hippocras]

@Landis sorry my edits came a bit too late. See above why I don't have him top of list or even very close.

 

Also, I don't think the Blackwood/Bracken lands are all that close to there. Fairmarket is the general point of friction between the two, so represents where they meet/cross. The closest Houses to Harrenhal would have been Strong (original seat), Harroway (original seat), Darry, Butterwell and Mooton for sure, and a few others more vaguely. So those are the suspects for Gargon's exploits.

Edited February 6 by Hippocras

[Landis]

12 minutes ago, Hippocras said:

But Gargon was fat, foolish, and a very poor candidate for fathering a potential King which was, after all, Visenya's goal. He doesn't seem like someone Visenya would have trusted with such an important secret.

 

He would become fat and foolish nearer to his death, for sure, but at the time his grandfather came to power at Harrenhal, he was just described as “plump”. I would also caution that F&B has a well-worn habit of using weight as a means of telegraphing judgement of greedy, evil characters (common allegory elsewhere as well). This is true of Maegor to a degree, it’s true of Rhaenyra, Aegon IV, etc. It may be that he was fat his whole life, but I think it’s perfectly within the realm of belief to suggest this is a storytelling device that is exaggerated by the maester for the purposes of moralizing on the gluttony that would ultimately result in his death. 
 

Aside from which, I’m not convinced Visenya especially cares whether the father of her son is chiseled. Frankly, I don’t know that there is any evidence she cares much for men at all; her concern, I’d argue, would be more about blood, and it is conceivable that regardless of his appetites (appetites that in this scenario, she may herself have fostered), he was one of the most pure-blooded Valyrian (and possibly Targaryen, via female line) dudes in the realm. Given that we know Visenya is pretty stringent about ensuring the survival of the female bloodline (not just in her own case, but in the case of Rhaena as well)… idk, I think it’s worth keeping the dummy on the list.
 

I also don’t think Visenya would trust *anyone* with that kind of secret to be frank, and nor would Aegon, assuming he was aware of his condition. If we are running with the idea that Maegor and Aenys were not Aegon’s sons, I would say that 100% Visenya and Rhaenys either did that in disguise, or had the men in question murdered immediately. Especially Visenya.

[Willam Stark]

Aegon I is his father, I don't think he was infertile but Visenya was and she used sorcery to become fertile.

[Hippocras]

19 minutes ago, Landis said:

He would become fat and foolish nearer to his death, for sure, but at the time his grandfather came to power at Harrenhal, he was just described as “plump”. I would also caution that F&B has a well-worn habit of using weight as a means of telegraphing judgement of greedy, evil characters (common allegory elsewhere as well). This is true of Maegor to a degree, it’s true of Rhaenyra, Aegon IV, etc. It may be that he was fat his whole life, but I think it’s perfectly within the realm of belief to suggest this is a storytelling device that is exaggerated by the maester for the purposes of moralizing on the gluttony that would ultimately result in his death. 
 

Aside from which, I’m not convinced Visenya especially cares whether the father of her son is chiseled. Frankly, I don’t know that there is any evidence she cares much for men at all; her concern, I’d argue, would be more about blood, and it is conceivable that regardless of his appetites (appetites that in this scenario, she may herself have fostered), he was one of the most pure-blooded Valyrian (and possibly Targaryen, via female line) dudes in the realm. Given that we know Visenya is pretty stringent about ensuring the survival of the female bloodline (not just in her own case, but in the case of Rhaena as well)… idk, I think it’s worth keeping the dummy on the list.
 

I also don’t think Visenya would trust *anyone* with that kind of secret to be frank, and nor would Aegon, assuming he was aware of his condition. If we are running with the idea that Maegor and Aenys were not Aegon’s sons, I would say that 100% Visenya and Rhaenys either did that in disguise, or had the men in question murdered immediately. Especially Visenya.

Sure, but while Gargon was Lord of Harrenhal, being of such a character would mean it is unlikely that he would have been appointed to any sort of important role in King's Landing or on Dragonstone, where Visenya was spending her time. There is certainly no mention of it, nor any reason to believe it. So while Gargon and Visenya might have crossed paths, that is a very different sort of access to the kind a knight of the (brand new) Kingsguard or a member of the Small Council would have had.

I think that while House Qoherys certainly had ties to dark magic, Visenya had her own ties and did not need them for that. So there is really no strong argument of access, magic, OR attraction to be found in this direction.

HOWEVER

If I am correct, then the Harroways were descendants of House Qoherys, female line. Then "Maegor Towers" was in fact the concealed child of Viserys Targaryen, who, married or not, produced a child at Harrenhal before dying at 17 years of age. Either Maegor's mother or the mother of his child was a Harroway either by the female or bastard route. So IMO Qoherys blood definitely comes in to the picture. I just do not see a strong case for as the father of King Maegor.

Edited February 6 by Hippocras

[Hippocras]

5 minutes ago, Willam Stark said:

Aegon I is his father, I don't think he was infertile but Visenya was and she used sorcery to become fertile.

Remains possible.

Just doesn't make for much of a discussion.

[Landis]

17 hours ago, Hippocras said:

We do have confirmation that the Darklyns of Duskendale and Mootons of Maidenpool did not yield easily to Aegon, which suggests at the very least that they did not see why Aegon should take precedence over them. In other words they felt they had as much or more right to rule as Aegon did and were proud. We also have been told that the Celtigars of the time were of Valyrian descent.

I’m struggling to understand why the Darklyns and Mootons, who draw their pride from being First Men petty kings, would consider Valyrianness something that is required to validate one’s right to rule? It strikes me as quite a stretch to suggest that houses like these would say “No, you can’t rule us, we’re more Valyrian than you are” unless you want to make an argument that there is a preexisting culture of divine right around the Valyrian race in Westeros that predates the Targaryens, which I fundamentally disagree with. 
 

More than anything else, I would argue that the initial resistance of the Darklyns to the Targaryens is more indicative of there being opposition to Valyrian penetration in the area, and I would argue that the Celtigars are probably the key reason why there was resistance, as it appears they have been attempting to claim the First Men-dominated Crackclaw Point as their own source of income for ages, and meeting with violent resistance for that fact. The Darklyns might be potential competitors with the Celtigars for Crackclaw Point, but I don’t know of anything that would suggest the two houses were friends at all. The Velaryons, on the other hand, appear to have been far more diplomatic as assimilationist in contrast, something that almost certainly aided in their greater stability, wealth, and alliance networks, especially after the Conquest. 
 

Please elaborate on why you think Robin Darklyn specifically, about whom we know next to nothing, is the most likely candidate. His only connection to Visenya is that she picked him for the first Kingsguard, and the information we have about him personally is the same we have for Ser Richard Roote, and Sers Gregor and Griffith Goode. Why would Visenya choose Robin Darklyn instead of, say, LC Corlys Velaryon, who would have had both Velaryon and Targaryen blood? Or Ser Humphrey the Mummer, whose mere name implies a pattern of pretending to be a person he isn’t? Or even Ser Addison Hill, a bastard who would conceivably have been blonde through a Lannister connection for House Swyft, and who would increase in importance over the course of his term to eventually replace Corlys as Lord Commander?

I guess I am not finding anything in your argument so far that makes this guy stand out as being of any actual importance to Visenya personally for any reason at all, and certainly in contrast to Gargon Qoherys. Like let’s just break it down, Gargon would have had many of the same Valyrian blood purity claims as Corlys; he had an added benefit of being raised in the Targaryen household on Dragonstone prior to the Conquest; his grandfather and predecessor Quenton was, in all likelihood, the person who taught Visenya how to fight (and of all three of the Conquerors, Visenya is the one that is most adept at arms, only further strengthening the likelihood of a personal bond with House Qoherys specifically). If we run on your own theory that Houses Harroway and Towers are branches of House Qoherys, this only strengthens the contention that Visenya is intent on ensuring the melding of the Targaryen line with House Qoherys, and she personally officiates her son’s marriage to Alys Harroway despite knowing it will mean his exile and enduring excommunication by the Faith, and when that doesn’t work, you have suggested that yet another secret Qoherys is brought in so Viserys can father Maegor Towers. 

And that’s before getting into everything around Rhaena, Lucamore Strong, and Jocelyn Baratheon.

[Hippocras]

@Landis

My thinking is not really about a Valyrian supremacy belief. There are various reasons for believing Valyrian blood, and Targ blood in particular has spread around more than people assume but that has to do with politics and a particular kind of magic, not supremacy. People simply discount the female line when talking about House heritage.

The reason I assume Maegor’s father was certainly at least part Valyrian is that I doubt Visenya would have risked a pregnancy, specifically designed to produce a King, where there was a chance the child could not pass as Aegon’s heir. 

As for the Darklyns, you are right that the root of their pride is mainly in being Kings themselves of their region. It is just that AS Kings, they made alliances in order to fend off various threats. If they did in fact manage to free themselves from Harren Hoare’s rule then they did so by alliance with other powerful Houses who were not at that point under Hoare’s thumb. Yet, probably not Andal Houses. Also, the wealth of Duskendale was based in trade as was the case with all of the port cities. Trade relations ALSO would have resulted in occasional trade alliances across the Narrow Sea and along their trading path. I think it is important to remember that the Valyrian island outposts, of which Dragonstone was simply the newest, were established 200 years or more before the conquest. LOTS of time for mingling.

It just so happens that Claw Isle, Dragonstone and Driftmark are all on Duskendale's trading path. It would have been very difficult for Duskendale to prosper without these Valyrian outposts consenting to letting ships pass through to and from Duskendale. Deiftmark could have blocked them from trade towards anything South of Pentos, and the Celtigars could have blocked trade to their port from further North, including Braavos, Ib, etc. If they desired. This is why a Celtigar and/or Velaryon alliance at some not-too-distant point before the conquest was in fact very likely.

From here my thinking is more speculative: I suspect many of the First Men Houses subscribed to a certain amount of matrilineal thinking, and that this was related to whatever form of magic they may have possessed. While it may have been difficult still for them to pass inheritance to daughters, particlarly after the Andal conquests, I think these Houses made clear efforts to reabsorb as quickly as possible the descendants of daughters, particularly if the daughters were the eldest.

So, if you imagine that Maegon Targaryen had a daughter but no son, and this was the reason Dragonstone passed to his brother. The daughter was married off to get her out of contention for Dragonstone and to establish a mainland political alliance. Then that daughter’s direct line of descent following only order of birth, not gender, led to House Darklyn at the time of the conquest. In this case, the Darklyns were not only historically Kings of their regions in their own right, but they also by their logic stood AHEAD of Aegon even in the Targaryen succession and in their own succession logic as well.

The reason this is worth speculating about is that it would tie in very very well to the general dynamics surrounding Harrenhal, which has a consistent theme of female leaders, passed over royal lines, and darker forms of magic.

 

As for candidates for Maegor’s father, I picked Darklyn because he seems to tie the threads together best, thematically. I agree there is no particular relationship specified between Darkrobin and Visenya except for the fact that he was one of the very first Kingsguard knights, and she was the one to create the Kingsguard. Really I consider anyone who might conceivably have had some Valyrian blood as well as being present in KL or at Dragonstone at the right point in time to be a contender.

But the name Dark MUST mean something. The House’s historic control of the region East of Harrenhal must mean something. Their repeated defiance must mean something, as must the fact that those Lords and Houses including Darklyn who were very strongly loyal to Maegor until the very end were nearly all based in this part of the Crownlands, between Maidenpool and Duskendale, and along both main and coastal roads in between. This unwavering loyalty suggests relationships, both to each other, and to Maegor.

Edited February 7 by Hippocras

[Landis]

@Hippocras
 

I’m not convinced that the Darklyns are connected to the Targaryens at all. Velaryons I can see being a thing, and as I’ve stated elsewhere, it’s hardly a stretch to understand that there are Valyrian marriages being made between coastal regions of Westeros and in the Riverlands with what would later become the Free Cities going back hundreds of years before the Targaryens arrive. 
 

But for the Darklyns specifically, I guess my sense is that, as petty kings, their main thing is that they try to practice a kind of Third Way politics in order to jockey for position between the major kingdoms in Westeros, but a lot of that is something more likely to be grounded in land-based warrior class politics than trade: the Velaryons and the Celtigars might be wealthy, but they can’t muster the kind of armies the Darklyns need to protect their borders from encroaching land forces of the Hoares, the Storm Kings, or the Arryns. So more than anything, I would argue that the Darklyns are looking at relationships that would preserve their autonomy in that context, and the Targaryens don’t appear to have been really interested in participating in the domestic politics in Westeros on their arrival, despite their dragons—until the Conquest. 
 

As far as the name “Darkrobin”: the more likely scenario in my mind seems to be that the Darklyns had marriages of convenience with the Storm Kings of a similar kind to the Blackwoods, but that this broke down during the Century of Blood as the Hoares reasserted Ironborn control through the Riverlands, resulting in the Darklyns pivoting to the Arryns instead, something only further supported by the fact that Robin is more an Andal name than anything else, and is associated with the Arryns’ bird sigil. It is even with the Arryns that we have another attestation of the diminutive name construction we are looking at here, with “Darkrobin” being mirrored in Robert Arryn’s nickname: “Sweetrobin”. Doesn’t it make more sense that a sister, cousin, or aunt of Sharra Arryn was Robin Darklyn’s mother, and had named him after a prominent Robin Arryn of the not-so-distant past (a father, brother, grandfather), but another boy born relatively contemporaneously was given the name Robin in the Arryn clan as well? As a part Arryn, Robin Darklyn gets fostered at the Eyrie, and to differentiate with his cousin Robin Arryn, they call him “Darkrobin” — meaning both the Darklyn Robin, but also the Darklyn born of an Arryn.

[Hippocras]

@Landis you are certainly right that land armies would have been a prime consideration for the Darklyns. But before King’s Landing was founded and supplanted them, Duskendale was also the most busy and prosperous port for hundreds of miles around, so their relationships along sea routes really should not be discounted. I would even argue that the sea and the coastal road through Crackclaw Point was the main source of their ability to circumvent whatever overlord they were nominally beholden to at any one point in time.

Your point is well taken regarding Arryns etc. It is a confusing and layered history and we really don’t know where they stood in terms of relationships with Andal Houses by the time of the conquest. It is further complicated by the fact that the Andals were not particularly unified. The time period we are talking about here would be while Ronnel Arryn ran the Vale (married to a Stark) and he would have reached majority by then. Possibly he and his brother swayed different directions on the Faith Militant and this was part of the tension that led to the 37 Vale rebellion.

But let’s say Darklyns did make an alliance with the Arryns, and maybe even their historic enemies the Bar Emmons in order to resist/undermine House Hoare. This of course was an option for them because of their position as a significant port. This speculation brings us back to the hints of vague family connections at conquest between House Targaryen and House Bar Emmon (probably passing through House Velaryon first). Bar Emmon of course had natural affinity for the Andals of the Vale and likely did have multiple family connections there. So once again we end up trying to untangle the extent to which the known Valyrian 3 hand inter-married already by that point with families along the coast (including in Gulltown) in the 200 years before conquest, and how far descendants had spread within regions from their coastal points of origin, with the basic Velaryon alliance with House Bar Emmon as a primary source.

Still, a point against any recent Andal alliance for House Darklyn during Maegor’s reign would be how firmly they fought against the Faith Millitant. This was even probably the primary reason why they were such firm supporters of Maegor; the enemy of my enemy….

Houses that were core supporters of Maegor until the end:

Bar Emmon
Stokeworth
Darklyn
Celtigar
Harte
Rosby
Buckwell
Hayford
Rollingford
Staunton
Towers

There are more. Point being that most these have clear geographic and territorial relationships to one another. Whichever one provided the father (if not Aegon) all the others were nevertheless likely some degree of kin.

Note: Lucifer Massey fought for Maegor, but he may have been seen as a « traitor » to the rest of his family if I am interpreting the name correctly, so I don’t take his story as evidence House Massey sided with Maegor.


 

Edited February 8 by Hippocras

[Hippocras]

Interesting titbit:

I know that TV shows are hardly the authority on all things ASOIAF, but HotD is run by GRRM's chosen guy and does take pains to be faithful to the intent, if not specific details of things. When Daemon is plotting in E10 in reaction to the Green coup he says they will send ravens to their closest allies, and then lists them:

Massey
Darklyn
Bar Emmon

It is a pretty short and specific list, and worth wondering why Darklyn was included when the other two have clearly known connections from the time of the Conquest. Of course the Dance was more than 100 years later again, so any Darklyn alliance suggested here could have been much more recent than necessary to be relevant to Maegor's birth. I just found this VERY short list interesting.

Edited February 8 by Hippocras

[KingAerys_II]

Balerion, she probably used the same magic ritual to create dragonlords

Edited February 8 by KingAerys_II

[Hippocras]

On 2/8/2024 at 1:47 PM, KingAerys_II said:

Balerion, she probably used the same magic ritual to create dragonlords

Doesn't seem like GRRM's style to use a magical cop-out when juicy politics are to be found in non-magical alternatives. Besides, Balerion and Aegon were "one". 

No, I think understanding this issue is related to understanding the undercurrents of the Crownlands through to Harrenhal. Something is going on in the background there and has been since the beginning.