The Meereenese Blot

[SeanF]

 

 

Untangling the Meereenese Knot, Part I: Who Poisoned the Locusts?

Meereen. The mere word probably makes you groan. It’s considered to be the weakest, most frustrating plotline in ADWD, and perhaps in in the whole series. It’s thought to be where GRRM …

https://meereeneseblot.wordpress.com/2013/09/27/untangling-the-meereenese-knot-part-i-who-poisoned-the-locusts/

 

This was a  series of essays published by Adam Feldman, almost ten years ago, which have subsequently had a great deal of influence, when discussing Daenerys' Meereenese storyline.  What do I disagree with? Almost everything, really.

1. The essays come close to being an apologetic for slavery. The author considers that the Sons of the Harpy have legitimate grievances, after having seen their slaves freed,  the slave trade disrupted, and 163 of their number put to death, following the city's fall. In his words, they have “seen their way of life destroyed.” The author sees it as a positive development that slavery is restored, outside Meereenese territory, in return for a precarious peace in Meereen. A big strength of the essays is that Feldman has great empathy towards the slavers, enabling us to understand their motives. A big weakness is that he has very little for the slaves and freedmen. It’s rather like reading a very old-fashioned historian of the Roman Empire, imagining himself as a senator, while ignoring the plight of the typical imperial inhabitant.
2. The author sees Hizdahr and the Green Grace as honest brokers, rather than the leaders of a vicious terrorist movement. One thing worth noting is that a cousin of hers tries to claim a share of the earnings of a group of weavers that he used to own, on the ground that he trained them. Daenerys rightly dismisses the claim, but we learn later that weavers are targeted for murder by the Harpies. The implication is that she directed this as spiteful piece of retaliation. Feldman thinks the Green Grace speaks for the author, in advocating peace with Yunkai as “the pearl beyond price”, and that we’d be very sympathetic to her, if we had her POV.  But, the Harpies are really the equivalent of the original Ku Klux Klan. They murder not just soldiers, but also any freedman who prospers. In no sense, should they be viewed as a sympathetic movement.
3. The author almost ignores the Volantene invasion. Volantis is the regional Big Brother to the slavers. It’s also on the brink of revolution by the slaves. Their leaders see free Mereen as an existential threat, emboldening their own slaves. Meereen has to be destroyed. And Yunkai sent envoys to Volantis to negotiate for them to destroy Meereen, something mentioned both at the end of A Storm of Swords, and in Tyrion's chapters in Volantis. Grazdan Mo Eraz travelled to Volantis, offering lavish bribes of money and prostitutes, to persuade them to attack. Yet, at no point during their negotiations with Daenerys do they mention their double-dealing, nor is there any suggestion that any envoys were sent subsequently to Volantis, to advise that there was now a peace treaty in place.  This destroys Feldman’s claim that the peace with Yunkai was genuine. Tyrion notes that the Yunkish lords are waiting for the Volantenes’ arrival, before joining the assault.
4. In the final essay, sees Dany’s choice as being between violence and good sex with Dasrio, or peace and bad sex with Hizdahr. Set aside the sexism with which this chapter is framed. Hizdahr represents a different type of violence to Dasrio. Dario’s violence is that of the soldier, who slays in battle. Hizdahr represents the violence of the refined sadist, who gets aroused by seeing dwarves torn apart by lions.

[Aldarion]

Yeah, I agree with your criticism... but here is a thing: just because one side is evil does not mean the other side is good. I could name you multiple antifascist movements that were just as evil as the fascists they fought against.

And he is correct that Daenaerys did literally everything wrong... just not in what she did wrong.

[SeanF]

1 minute ago, Aldarion said:

Yeah, I agree with your criticism... but here is a thing: just because one side is evil does not mean the other side is good. I could name you multiple antifascist movements that were just as evil as the fascists they fought against.

And he is correct that Daenaerys did literally everything wrong... just not in what she did wrong.

Well, of course, Cleon is a piece of scum.  

Nobody who wages war, however justified, has clean hands.  But, there are conflicts in which one side is plainly, a lot more in the right than the other, such as Ukraine/Russia.  And, this is one of them.

Daenerys' big error was trying to abort her revolution, rather than adopting Macchiavelli's maxim that if you have to harm someone, you must strike them so hard that you need never fear their revenge.  

[astarkchoice]

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

Well, of course, Cleon is a piece of scum.  

Nobody who wages war, however justified, has clean hands.  But, there are conflicts in which one side is plainly, a lot more in the right than the other, such as Ukraine/Russia.  And, this is one of them.

Daenerys' big error was trying to abort her revolution, rather than adopting Macchiavelli's maxim that if you have to harm someone, you must strike them so hard that you need never fear their revenge.  

Yeah shes done a lot wrong trying to do right ! She never should have left astopor without ensuring it was as stable as possible but her failures in mereen have been breathtakingly bad.

She ends slavery without pushing it to be replaced with basic capitalism ie pay the former slaves for the same job they previously did for free and watch them spend the money in mereen! She randomly killed some leaders  who could have been allies , she cuts off the fighting pit tourism which not only is one of their main financial pillars but has religious significance AND frees up lots of well trained killers to be used as guerilla fighters.

On top of it all across the water there was always  the might new ghis (feels like grmm thought up new ghis later on) so from day one she should have been assembling a force capable of meeting them in open battle! 

[SeanF]

22 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

Yeah shes done a lot wrong trying to do right ! She never should have left astopor without ensuring it was as stable as possible but her failures in mereen have been breathtakingly bad.

She ends slavery without pushing it to be replaced with basic capitalism ie pay the former slaves for the same job they previously did for free and watch them spend the money in mereen! She randomly killed some leaders  who could have been allies , she cuts off the fighting pit tourism which not only is one of their main financial pillars but has religious significance AND frees up lots of well trained killers to be used as guerilla fighters.

On top of it all across the water there was always  the might new ghis (feels like grmm thought up new ghis later on) so from day one she should have been assembling a force capable of meeting them in open battle! 

Had she stayed in Astapor, she'd have faced an invasion by the slavers, but this time including the resources of Meereen.  I don't think it would have ended well.  Her mistake was not leaving a garrison behind.

We see that some freedmen do prosper.  She orders they be admitted to the guilds.  She promotes agriculture, and weaving, and building,  and the freedmen do now receive wages, if low ones.  I'd criticise her more for not redistributing the wealth of the masters. 

The Great Masters had nailed up 163 slave children.  That was a calculated, open, deliberate atrocity, by a ruling class that was collectively bloodying its hands. It's similar to Crassus crucifying 6,000 on the Appian Way.  The entire Senate was guilty of that act, not just Crassus, for they empowered him.  My criticism is not that any of the 163 masters were innocent (how could they be?).  Rather, that the majority of the guilty walked free.

WRT the fighting pits, what the afficionados really enjoy is seeing dwarves, children, and slaves being torn to pieces.  I don't blame her for closing them.  The moment she reopened them, Hizdahr was trying to feed Tyrion and Penny to lions.

Her best decision in Meereen is actually recruiting a standing army, who are trained by the Unsullied.  I assume that will be an important element in victory over the slavers, if we ever get TWOW.

Edited March 1 by SeanF

[astarkchoice]

2 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Had she stayed in Astapor, she'd have faced an invasion, but this time including the resources of Meereen.  I don't think it would have ended well.  Her mistake was not leaving a garrison behind.

We see that some freedmen do prosper.  She orders they be admitted to the guilds.  She promotes agriculture, and weaving, and building,  and the freedmen do now receive wages, if low ones.  I'd criticise her more for not redistributing the wealth of the masters. 

The Great Masters had nailed up 163 slave children.  That was a calculated, open, deliberate atrocity, by a ruling class that was collectively bloodying its hands. It's similar to Crassus crucifying 6,000 on the Appian Way.  The entire Senate was guilty of that act, not just Crassus, for they empowered him.  My criticism is not that any of the 163 masters were innocent (how could they be?).  Rather, that the guilty walked free.

WRT the fighting pits, what the afficionados really enjoy is seeing dwarves, children, and slaves being torn to pieces.  I don't blame her for closing them.  The moment she reopened them, Hizdahr was trying to feed Tyrion and Penny to lions.

Her best decision in Meereen is actually recruiting a standing army, who are trained by the Unsullied.  I assume that will be an important element in victory over the slavers, if we ever get TWOW.

She could have stayed longer then still  moved to knock yunkai out of the game proper but yeah a garrison would have been a good shout..maybe exiled jorah there to keep things in hand when he had been revealed to her outside mereen as a wsy of building trust again.

Yeah talking a large part of their wealth to rebuild and give the former slaves start up money for various enterprises but also speak to the wealthy and talk them into investing their remianing vast wealth  in things like taverns , restaurants ,ships , and building homes  as a way to get the money they lost back!

The 163 were picked at random was a mistake  she should have waited until she knew the exact master or masters who pushed for that.

The fighting pits we are told are  a staple of the econonmy there drawing trade and 1/10 of all profits made are paid as a tax.  Mereens old economy is basicaly dying so the pits are basicaly a major  tourist attraction propping it up! Not to mention the religigious significance and again the danger of making so many trained killers oit of  work at once!

Yeah the brazen beasts are a good idea but in wayy too small numbers to counter the enemy across the sea, seems likr a grmm after thought! It doesnt make sene that no one said to her hey theres 6 legions of enemies very nearby 

[SeanF]

50 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

She could have stayed longer then still  moved to knock yunkai out of the game proper but yeah a garrison would have been a good shout..maybe exiled jorah there to keep things in hand when he had been revealed to her outside mereen as a wsy of building trust again.

Yeah talking a large part of their wealth to rebuild and give the former slaves start up money for various enterprises but also speak to the wealthy and talk them into investing their remianing vast wealth  in things like taverns , restaurants ,ships , and building homes  as a way to get the money they lost back!

The 163 were picked at random was a mistake  she should have waited until she knew the exact master or masters who pushed for that.

The fighting pits we are told are  a staple of the econonmy there drawing trade and 1/10 of all profits made are paid as a tax.  Mereens old economy is basicaly dying so the pits are basicaly a major  tourist attraction propping it up! Not to mention the religigious significance and again the danger of making so many trained killers oit of  work at once!

Yeah the brazen beasts are a good idea but in wayy too small numbers to counter the enemy across the sea, seems likr a grmm after thought! It doesnt make sene that no one said to her hey theres 6 legions of enemies very nearby 

There are thousands of freedmen, however, trained as soldiers by the Unsullied.  That’s in addition to the Brazen Beasts.

Making use of Meereen’s walls, and letting the besiegers rot, due to disease, and drinking river water, makes sense.

Edited March 1 by SeanF

[astarkchoice]

40 minutes ago, SeanF said:

There are thousands of freedmen, however, trained as soldiers by the Unsullied.  That’s in addition to the Brazen Beasts.

Making use of Meereen’s walls, and letting the besiegers rot, due to disease, and drinking river water, makes sense.

Hmm were are you getting its in the region if 10s of thousands  though?  If she knew mew ghis existed she should have been prepping for war with them by building a similar sized force

It makes sense as they are bottled in, otherwise being trapped in a single walled city and besiged by much larger forces would be dire. The fact the slavers have been soo grossly incompentent/arrogant is the only reason its now  clesrly going to be been reversed.

Edited March 1 by astarkchoice

[Many-Faced Votary]

Understanding the high-level political context surrounding the highly complex theater of Slaver's Bay, and of Dany's abolitionist crusade, is much better done through Steven Atwell's well-researched and beautifully argued A Laboratory of Politics series -- in particular, his excellent conclusion on unjust "peace" and just war, vis-à-vis the political and historical reference of American Reconstruction.

As for what The Meereenese Blot got "right," that would presumably be in reference to what it actually discussed on the basis of published material that wasn't baseless and problematic speculation, which is to say: Dany's internal conflict of peace vs. war throughout ADWD, her repeated compromises in pursuit of peace, and the stunning conclusion that she will take a dark turn in TWOW -- like every other character.

[SeanF]

7 minutes ago, Many-Faced Votary said:

Understanding the high-level political context surrounding the highly complex theater of Slaver's Bay, and of Dany's abolitionist crusade, is much better done through Steven Atwell's well-researched and beautifully argued A Laboratory of Politics series -- in particular, his excellent conclusion on unjust "peace" and just war, vis-à-vis the political and historical reference of American Reconstruction.

As for what The Meereenese Blot got "right," that would presumably be in reference to what it actually discussed on the basis of published material that wasn't baseless and problematic speculation, which is to say: Dany's internal conflict of peace vs. war throughout ADWD, her repeated compromises in pursuit of peace, and the stunning conclusion that she will take a dark turn in TWOW -- like every other character.

Steven Attwell’s analysis is vastly superior to Adam Feldman’s.

[thehandwipes]

"Apologetic for slavery?"  Give me a break.  Your criticism isn't of Adam Feltman, its of GRRM.

GRRM: "I read those (the Meereenese Blot essays) when someone pointed them out to me, and I was really pleased with them, because at least one guy got it. He got it completely, he knew exactly what I was trying to do there, and evidently I did it well enough for people who were paying attention."

Has GRRM ever said anything like that about anything you've written?

[Many-Faced Votary]

4 hours ago, thehandwipes said:

GRRM: "I read those (the Meereenese Blot essays) when someone pointed them out to me, and I was really pleased with them, because at least one guy got it. He got it completely, he knew exactly what I was trying to do there, and evidently I did it well enough for people who were paying attention."

Yes, Mr. Feldman understood the themes of the narrative, the interplay and conflict of peace vs. war, and Dany's rejection of peace by embracing Fire and Blood at the end. Probably most importantly, because there was an outright erroneous conclusion to the contrary that was common among the fandom at the time, he realized that Dany administered Meereen capably and to the best of her ability and compassion, given the constraints of the "peace" that existed and her compromises to maintain it.

Nothing about what he Mr. Martin said suggests that the conclusions of the essay were correct. That was based on the false premise that the peace was just and nonviolent. It also involved speculation on Mr. Feldman's part, speculation characterized by heavily classist and misogynistic views, combined with vile slaver apologia and the lionization of slavers over former slaves.

[thehandwipes]

39 minutes ago, Many-Faced Votary said:

Yes, Mr. Feldman understood the themes of the narrative, the interplay and conflict of peace vs. war, and Dany's rejection of peace by embracing Fire and Blood at the end. Probably most importantly, because there was an outright erroneous conclusion to the contrary that was common among the fandom at the time, he realized that Dany administered Meereen capably and to the best of her ability and compassion, given the constraints of the "peace" that existed and her compromises to maintain it.

Nothing about what he Mr. Martin said suggests that the conclusions of the essay were correct. That was based on the false premise that the peace was just and nonviolent. It also involved speculation on Mr. Feldman's part, speculation characterized by heavily classist and misogynistic views, combined with vile slaver apologia and the lionization of slavers over former slaves.

Yeah, sure, "he got it exactly, he knew exactly what I was trying to do" means he completely misunderstood the point of the narrative and reached conclusions that were not only wrong, but misogynistic and pro-slavery.  Don't believe your lying eyes.

[Many-Faced Votary]

8 minutes ago, thehandwipes said:

Yeah, sure, "he got it exactly, he knew exactly what I was trying to do" means he completely misunderstood the point of the narrative and reached conclusions that were not only wrong, but misogynistic and pro-slavery.  Don't believe your lying eyes.

Go to! It's telling how your first instinct is to defend those lens rather than reexamine them.

It's a lot easier to perceive the problem if you compare his essays on Tyrion, Doran, and especially Jon to the one on Dany. There is a pretty clear double standard at play when you contrast the conclusion of The Meereenese Blot with that of Other Wars, with some horrific gender-based interpretations and eyebrow-raising inferences that could only be achieved by valuing the slaver over the slave.  

Forgive me for not having much respect for slavery apologia and misogyny. 

 

Here's a significantly more valuable quote from George R. R. Martin himself, for your perusal:

"I never held much with slavery [...] You can’t just go... usin’ another kind of people, like they wasn’t people at all. Know what I mean? Got to end, sooner or later. Better if it ends peaceful, but it’s got to end even if it has to be with fire and blood, you see? Maybe that’s what them abolitionists been sayin’ all along. You try to be reasonable, that’s only right, but if it don’t work, you got to be ready. Some things is just wrong. They got to be ended."

~ Abner Marsh, Fevre Dream

[SeanF]

6 hours ago, thehandwipes said:

"Apologetic for slavery?"  Give me a break.  Your criticism isn't of Adam Feltman, its of GRRM.

GRRM: "I read those (the Meereenese Blot essays) when someone pointed them out to me, and I was really pleased with them, because at least one guy got it. He got it completely, he knew exactly what I was trying to do there, and evidently I did it well enough for people who were paying attention."

Has GRRM ever said anything like that about anything you've written?

Not that I am aware of.

But, i stand by criticisms of the essays.  The text does not support Feldman’s thesis, that the peace was real, the slavers are reasonable people, nor that Danaerys is choosing between good and bad sex.  Nor that Ghiscari slavery is anything other than extremely evil.

Edited March 3 by SeanF

[thehandwipes]

14 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Not that I am aware of.

But, i stand by criticisms of the essays.  The text does not support Feldman’s thesis, that the peace was real, the slavers are reasonable people, nor that Danaerys is choosing between good and bad sex.  Nor that Ghiscari slavery is anything other than extremely evil.

If that's what you took away from the essays I'd recommend a re-read.  

[SeanF]

11 minutes ago, thehandwipes said:

If that's what you took away from the essays I'd recommend a re-read.  

I’ve read the essays more than once.

Have you?

[Lord Varys]

The essays are quite weird indeed, I only read them once a many years ago.

They do miss/ignore crucial tidbits a close reading of the text would reveal what is actually going on, for instance, Hizdahr actually liking spicy food ... which betrays his lie when Barristan accuses him of being complicit in the poisoning. Or the Green Grace's cousin's dismissed claim to profit from the weaver business leading to the Sons of the Harpy killing the weavers ... which indicates that Galazza Galare herself is coordinating the attacks of the Sons.

With such clues you can't build theories which have Hizdahr or Galazza as honest peace brokers ... and of course all the Yunkai'i want is bathe in Dany's blood (but under Yurkhaz and while Yezzan was still alive they were willing to just demand Dany's head and leave Meereen unsacked and Hizdahr in charge). Not to mention that Skahaz has no reason to not be totally in team Dany.

The only time when the Meereenese elite were still cautious was while the dragons were still a real factor and Dany had not yet shown her willingness to compromise everything in exchange for the promise of peace. Then they smelled weakness and blood in the water and decided to destroy her one cut a time.

[Ran]

As the source of the quote, George did praise the Mereenese Blot essays, and I think what he praised foremost was that the piece picked up the themes he was exploring and grappling with, but I don't think it should be taken that George necessarily meant that the actual plot accuracy and predictions the essays make are right.

I'm sure I have the full recording somewhere still, but I'm pretty sure we got to that because the topic of how sometimes George's themes are misunderstood by people, which makes him wonder if it's a failure on his part or not.

Edited March 3 by Ran

[Lord Varys]

3 hours ago, Ran said:

As the source of the quote, George did praise the Mereenese Blot essays, and I think what he praised foremost was that the piece picked up the themes he was exploring and grappling with, but I don't think it should be taken that George necessarily meant that the actual plot accuracy and predictions the essays make are right.

Theme-wise, the essays certainly focused on a part of ADwD many other readers - and many of them even on this board - never got or ignored. Namely, Dany's real struggle to create a lasting peace and be the just queen of both (former) slavers and slaves, and how that involves compromises and mistakes. But the actual analysis and prognosis of future plots is severe lacking.

Crushing the slaver culture completely is not bad. Fire and blood is no bad approach there, it is the only thing facilitating lasting change. In ASoS she started as the Conqueror, turned herself into Aenys in ADwD, barely avoiding the poison ... and to finish this thing she needs one or two pages out of Maegor's book. If the plot had her settle in Slaver's Bay for good she would have to become Jaehaerys eventually ... but that isn't the plot.