The elephant in the room

[astarkchoice]

The golden company has brought some of these beasts with them so how do we think theyl be used in westeros.

It strikes me the ancient game of cryvasse foreshadows their useage and probably emerged as a way to teach highborn the use of different units in battle

[PrettyLittlePsycho]

Obviously, Hannibal comes to mind, but even though he was a pretty successful military leader his Elephants were more for show than actually useful in battle.

Don´t think the ones of the GC will be more effective.

[astarkchoice]

2 hours ago, PrettyLittlePsycho said:

Obviously, Hannibal comes to mind, but even though he was a pretty successful military leader his Elephants were more for show than actually useful in battle.

Don´t think the ones of the GC will be more effective.

Hannibal used them quite well although they didnt survive long in rome anyway and at zama his back was agaisnt the wall.

Generaly they were a devastating weapon used in the west more as a charge unit at battles opening (or when fully engaged)  whereas in india/asia  they were integrated into a combined arms approach. Id expect the gc know how to deploy them correctly

[Loose Bolt]

We know that winter is coming to Westeros. So I assume that most of elephants will be wiped out by either elements or diseases and rest of them will starve to death. After all feeding those animals would be hard even during ideal conditions and totally impossible during harsh winter.

[astarkchoice]

3 hours ago, Loose Bolt said:

We know that winter is coming to Westeros. So I assume that most of elephants will be wiped out by either elements or diseases and rest of them will starve to death. After all feeding those animals would be hard even during ideal conditions and totally impossible during harsh winter.

To be fair thats everything if westerod was real

[Jaenara Belarys]

With the fact that spear-men and pike-men are mentioned a lot, alongside archers, they probably won't pose that much of a threat. Getting continuously bombarded by arrows and stabbed with pikes and spears would probably injure/freak out the elephants to the point where they pose no true military threat. That's my relatively uninformed opinion. 

[Aebram]

I recall some text in the story stating that horses will not stand against elephants. The mere sight, sound, and smell of them might be sufficient to severely disrupt an assault by mounted enemies.

[The Lord of the Crossing]

Cyvasse is a literary vehicle to show which of the schemers and players are good at it.  Arrianne is an awful player and certain to muck up her father's plans.  She will drag Aegon into her schemes and get the both of them killed.  I would love to see Dany play the game.  I think Dany will be great at cyvasse. 

[Alester Florent]

Based on real-world events, at least, elephants were frequently devastating against opponents unused to dealing with them, especially cavalry. The actual equipment used by the guys on the receiving end didn't necessarily matter if morale and cohesion failed, as it often did when you have such a huge creature bearing down on you and you haven't been inoculated through training and experience.

The most effective troops the Romans eventually found against them were light infantry, particularly with javelins, who could harass the elephants [i]away from the main line[/i] and shepherd them back towards their own troops. That's something I suspect Westeros is deficient in, not that it would necessarily matter if they were unprepared anyway. I'm not sure whether archers would have the same effect or whether they would simply enrage the elephants into a more furious charge.

I suspect the elephants will have a powerful impact in their first few battles, but that they won't be decisive as time goes on, for narrative reasons as much as anything else. It might be interesting to see them up against the Dothraki, though... a pure cavalry army up against animals that horses struggle to cope with.

[astarkchoice]

8 hours ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

With the fact that spear-men and pike-men are mentioned a lot, alongside archers, they probably won't pose that much of a threat. Getting continuously bombarded by arrows and stabbed with pikes and spears would probably injure/freak out the elephants to the point where they pose no true military threat. That's my relatively uninformed opinion. 

Nope they were used in combat efffective esp in india until gunpowder made them obsolete. 

Like any unit its WHEN and HOW to use them. Spread out missle troops wil bother them yes ......packed together cavalry and infantry will obviously be devastated (but if the enemy can turn them just right that counts both ways!!)

Even when you do have good tactics to use vs them they can still be a nightmare....ceasers legions knew how to handle them but still found it such a frigging battle the 5th legion who engaged them altered their shield to rememver the ferocious battle they had with them!

 

Overall id say a vetran like jon knows how to deploy them..hel fix his opp into packed blocks of men/cavalry then introduce them to elephants

Edited March 7 by astarkchoice

[Jaenara Belarys]

8 hours ago, astarkchoice said:

Nope they were used in combat efffective esp in india until gunpowder made them obsolete. 

 

Were they? I remember reading that the Romans and Macedonians were able to deal with them, and scaring them off sounds like it worked pretty well. 

[House Cambodia]

They were significant weapons of war over here in Cambodia. The Khmers even had a bespoke double-crossbow mounted on them.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballista_elephant

https://weaponsandwarfare.com/2020/05/30/khmer-war-elephants/

[House Cambodia]

23 hours ago, Loose Bolt said:

We know that winter is coming to Westeros. So I assume that most of elephants will be wiped out by either elements or diseases and rest of them will starve to death. After all feeding those animals would be hard even during ideal conditions and totally impossible during harsh winter.

Lucky the wildlings have plenty of mammoths then!

[astarkchoice]

2 hours ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

Were they? I remember reading that the Romans and Macedonians were able to deal with them, and scaring them off sounds like it worked pretty well. 

The macedonians and romans had to deal with them yes but it was never easy or fun..alexanders army remeber told him.'nope' to going further into india where they could end up facing hundreds of them.

[Universal Sword Donor]

22 hours ago, astarkchoice said:

The macedonians and romans had to deal with them yes but it was never easy or fun..alexanders army remeber told him.'nope' to going further into india where they could end up facing hundreds of them.

Right but they’d also marched like 10k km and hadn’t seen home in a decade (or whatever). Less about elephants — they didn’t a pretty good job of engaging them when they had to — and more about wanting to bang their wives and see their children 

[astarkchoice]

2 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Right but they’d also marched like 10k km and hadn’t seen home in a decade (or whatever). Less about elephants — they didn’t a pretty good job of engaging them when they had to — and more about wanting to bang their wives and see their children 

Which wives and kids they had gained a few on the road.

 

But overall  elephants when used right are a battle changer.

[Universal Sword Donor]

14 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

Which wives and kids they had gained a few on the road.

 

But overall  elephants when used right are a battle changer.

They can be. Scipio, Alexander, and others easily negated their effects with rather mundane strategies desensitizing the horses and animals or opening ranks to let the elephants charge through 

[astarkchoice]

11 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

They can be. Scipio, Alexander, and others easily negated their effects with rather mundane strategies desensitizing the horses and animals or opening ranks to let the elephants charge through 

Hmm well sorta. At zama hannibal was forced to cobble together dregs including young poorly trained elephants. It allowed scipios tactic of using the traditional  javelin barrages  as well  as using horns , shield bashing against weapons  (which also let the legion know to open gaps) to startle a few back through the ranks. That said while many went through the gaps as planned a lot still trampled velites and slammed into the hastati line causing reportedly heavy casulties before being driven off!

Alexander adapted to fighting them too but never had it easy they still caused great loss...its simply never easy to face the beasts! 

Plus again bear in mind theres a difference in western and eastern use of the brutes. In most western conflicts they were simply charged at the enemy like a wrecking ball and where possible trained to not be affected by battle.noise....the far east like india we hear of them trained from birth then  armoured and towered with spearmen+ archers and mkre integrated into a combined arms approach!

 

Overall.in regards to the golden company i think they could be used by jon con quite well. From a writing persoective it does seem to be set up that westerosi lords look down on mercs and that many of westeros leaders  still believe in the lordly knights charging en masse  being the deciding factor on a battlefield.....it would be such a grmm thing to see the shock and awe in the lordlings when their heavy cavalry is shattered by elephants and 'lowly mercs' utterly rout them, a sort of harrowing introduction to more a modern battlefield for them!