Direwolves vs Lions

[Texas Hold Em]

Hope depends on Bran, Tyrion, and Dany working out a treaty for peaceful coexistence.  They are the third children of their respective houses.  I know Jon is a bastard and there are Sansa and Arya ahead of Bran.  Sansa has turned away from her birth family.  Arya turned away from humanity.  I think Arya will die before the last chapters.  It falls on Bran to carry on the family duties.  Jaime and Cersei, no need to say more because they are disasters.  Rhaegar and Viserys are gone and their job falls to Dany to fulfill.  

[Club-foot cleft-lips]

6 minutes ago, Texas Hold Em said:

Hope depends on Bran, Tyrion, and Dany working out a treaty for peaceful coexistence.  They are the third children of their respective houses.  I know Jon is a bastard and there are Sansa and Arya ahead of Bran.  Sansa has turned away from her birth family.  Arya turned away from humanity.  I think Arya will die before the last chapters.  It falls on Bran to carry on the family duties.  Jaime and Cersei, no need to say more because they are disasters.  Rhaegar and Viserys are gone and their job falls to Dany to fulfill.  

if R+L+J is true, doesnt that mean jon is also a third child? might fit better than bran in the list is all im sayin'

[Here's Looking At You, Kid]

The sigils rank the families in order of power hierarchy.  Power usually determine social and political rank in any place. Smaller houses can still punch above their weight with magic. The Reeds are destitute and lack what is considered formal education but their magic allows them to survive in the tough environs of the swamp.  

[Club-foot cleft-lips]

1 hour ago, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

The sigils rank the families in order of power hierarchy.  Power usually determine social and political rank in any place. Smaller houses can still punch above their weight with magic. The Reeds are destitute and lack what is considered formal education but their magic allows them to survive in the tough environs of the swamp.  

not to quibble, but destitute would imply that they lack the basic necessities of life. The Reeds are poor for a noble house, but are better off than most small folk.

okay, quibbling done

[the trees have eyes]

14 hours ago, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

The sigils rank the families in order of power hierarchy.  Power usually determine social and political rank in any place.

The sigils are evocative and have stories attached to them relating to the House, it's history and it's place in it's ancestral lands (Grapes for Redwynes, Towers for Freys or Hightowers, the leaping trout of the Tullys of Riverrun, the Giant of The Umbers, the Falcon of the Arryns, etc...).  Any power hierarchy is a droll but meaningless kind of user-driven game of top trumps or more likely, a kind of e-sports team cheering exercise (our sigil is way better than yours, mwahaha, losers!).

The Rose of the Tyrells and the Green hand of the Gardeners are far less imposing than more martial sigils and that has no bearing on relative power.  Different regions have different traditions too: the North has a lot of animal symbols in it's heraldry - Bull Moose of Hornwoods, Direwolf of Starks, Bear of Mormonts - while the Reach has a lot of farming / growing symbols - Golden Rose of Tyrells, Grapes of Redwyne, Red / Green Apples of the Fossoways.  Obviously the Reach is larger and more powerful militarily; all the sigils do is give a bit of texture and colour to the landscape and history. 

[Son of Man]

The power pyramid applies to the ruling classes of Westeros.  House Targaryen is the top of the pyramid and the great houses are lesser than they and forms the lower parts of the pyramid.  The empires to the far east have their own social divisions that we have not been told about.  I am expecting there are empires in other continents but are not going to have a role in this part of the story. 

[Moiraine Sedai]

On 3/27/2024 at 12:16 AM, Evolett said:

Well, according to the CotF, the great lions have all been slain but Cersei does mention a couple of caged lions down in the depths of Casterly Rock. Now, imagine trotting these out against wild Nymeria. My bet would definitely be on the direwolf!

Lions beat direwolves. 

[Alden Rothack]

22 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

Lions beat direwolves. 

not the westerosi kind they don't

[Club-foot cleft-lips]

so i just though id throw this out their, but the lions of westeros, called the great lions of the western hills, probably arn't the same type of lions we see in Africa. im willing to bet they are either the extinct cave lion (native to Europe) or extinct American lion, both special of which are between 12-20% larger than African lions, which is pretty damn big.

(great) lions they are their own sort of (dire) wolf, and i would not make any easy assumptions about either in a fight. both are pack animals, and dangerous in their own territory.

 

[Alden Rothack]

28 minutes ago, Club-foot cleft-lips said:

so i just though id throw this out their, but the lions of westeros, called the great lions of the western hills, probably arn't the same type of lions we see in Africa. im willing to bet they are either the extinct cave lion (native to Europe) or extinct American lion, both special of which are between 12-20% larger than African lions, which is pretty damn big.

(great) lions they are their own sort of (dire) wolf, and i would not make any easy assumptions about either in a fight. both are pack animals, and dangerous in their own territory.

 

a cave lion is bigger than a real direwolf, its still tiny compared to the direwolves of westeros

[Club-foot cleft-lips]

18 hours ago, Alden Rothack said:

a cave lion is bigger than a real direwolf, its still tiny compared to the direwolves of westeros

no, not really

if a westerosi direwolf is around the size or even somewhat bigger than a pony, and lets for example use a scottish highland pony as a prototype (or another of the largest pony breeds), that would put it in a size range of 130-150 cm in height, and approximately 170-195 centimeter length range. given the average proportions and weight of real wolves, that would put a direwolf in the weight range of 90-100kg. maybe up to 100-120kg a bit more with that big head and all. generously we could go up to 200 kg. 4x the weight if an Irish wolfhound, direwolves only every being described as more than twice the size of a large hound.

Some cave lions on the other hand have been found to have reached a length of 250 cm in length. its height range is also similar to a westerosi direwolf, with records of reaching the 130+ centimeter range. next comes in weight, with the average male cave lion being in the 300+ kg range, which is not an negligible weight difference, especially when that is muscle and not fat. this should not be surprising, as the closest feliform is size to modern wolves, the cougar, on average doubles the weight of wolves. we should also not neglect what this means for the possible paw strength of this cave lions, being larger than tigers that are capable of cracking the skulls of bears with a single strike, and are capable of far greater expression of dexterity and movement than caniforms. an alpha male cave lion could probably live spatchcock the average direwolf.

Which does bring up my next point, this is of course a male cave lion. females on average are smaller, and if direwolves are on average more size uniform between male and female, in a pack fight they might have a better chance.

finally, I feel it worth noting that if westrosi direwolves are larger than real direwolves, one might also expect westerosi great lions to be larger than real world cave lions, but like the great lions being cave lions itself, it really is only speculation.

really neither should want to fight the other unless they are competing over territory, otherwise, the risk of the fight is too great for a wild animal to be worth it. out of 36 stratagems, running away is still often the best move.

Edited April 7 by Club-foot cleft-lips

[Alden Rothack]

7 hours ago, Club-foot cleft-lips said:

no, not really

if a westerosi direwolf is around the size or even somewhat bigger than a pony, and lets for example use a scottish highland pony as a prototype (or another of the largest pony breeds), that would put it in a size range of 130-150 cm in height, and approximately 170-195 centimeter length range. given the average proportions and weight of real wolves, that would put a direwolf in the weight range of 90-100kg. maybe up to 100-120kg a bit more with that big head and all. generously we could go up to 200 kg. 4x the weight if an Irish wolfhound, direwolves only every being described as more than twice the size of a large hound.

Some cave lions on the other hand have been found to have reached a length of 250 cm in length. its height range is also similar to a westerosi direwolf, with records of reaching the 130+ centimeter range. next comes in weight, with the average male cave lion being in the 300+ kg range, which is not an negligible weight difference, especially when that is muscle and not fat. this should not be surprising, as the closest feliform is size to modern wolves, the cougar, on average doubles the weight of wolves. we should also not neglect what this means for the possible paw strength of this cave lions, being larger than tigers that are capable of cracking the skulls of bears with a single strike, and are capable of far greater expression of dexterity and movement than caniforms. an alpha male cave lion could probably live spatchcock the average direwolf.

Which does bring up my next point, this is of course a male cave lion. females on average are smaller, and if direwolves are on average more size uniform between male and female, in a pack fight they might have a better chance.

finally, I feel it worth noting that if westrosi direwolves are larger than real direwolves, one might also expect westerosi great lions to be larger than real world cave lions, but like the great lions being cave lions itself, it really is only speculation.

really neither should want to fight the other unless they are competing over territory, otherwise, the risk of the fight is too great for a wild animal to be worth it. out of 36 stratagems, running away is still often the best move.

the exactly measurement of the direwolves are complex however the direwolf mother was bigger than a pony and very unlikely to be as lightly built as a wolfhound which is one of the lightest built 'large' dogs in existence, however we also need to consider whether Bran means by weight or by size, Because this makes a huge difference, for example the largest wolfhounds sit between the size of the common grey wolf and the real direwolf.

if the direwolf is twice the weight of a wolfhound then its at least 300lbs, however if its bgger than a pony then its at least double that

wolves do kill lions, they do so despite being on average four times smaller and being less well adapted for it than direwolves were

I'm still betting on the direwolf

[Club-foot cleft-lips]

1 hour ago, Alden Rothack said:

the exactly measurement of the direwolves are complex however the direwolf mother was bigger than a pony and very unlikely to be as lightly built as a wolfhound which is one of the lightest built 'large' dogs in existence, however we also need to consider whether Bran means by weight or by size, Because this makes a huge difference, for example the largest wolfhounds sit between the size of the common grey wolf and the real direwolf.

if the direwolf is twice the weight of a wolfhound then its at least 300lbs, however if its bgger than a pony then its at least double that

wolves do kill lions, they do so despite being on average four times smaller and being less well adapted for it than direwolves were

I'm still betting on the direwolf

Irish wolfhounds are are in a competitive weight with seven of the fifteen heaviest dog breeds, none in that range gaining more than 15 pounds on them at the heaviest end.  Even if we measure direwolves by four times the average weight of the heaviest dog breed, the mastiffs, we are still only getting to just as heavy as cave lions. And by all accounts, they are not built like mastiff's but like large headed wolves, gaunt like ghost, with the initial weight I provided by being correctly proportional to the weight of real wolves, converted to the size proportionality of the largest breeds of pony. If it was much bigger, say as big as a destrier, Bran would have said so. Based on size and skeletal limitations, its unlikely a Dire wolf could weigh more than 500 lbs, more likely being somewhere in the 400 lbs (or 200 kg) range, at the highest.

And Bran was obviously describing the size. You don't eyeball something's weight. He's a child after all. 

Twice the weight of a wolfhound wouldn't be 300 lbs would be 240 at the highest. But even so, at 600 lbs like you proposed, its still less than a cave lions weight, which average in the 700+ lbs range. 

And their are no recorded instances of a wolves ever predating or killing healthy adult lions in the wild, and especially no cases of single wolves killing a healthy adult male lion. Cubs and the already dying, sure, but none full grown and healthy. and even the sick and injured lions they fight, they fight as a pack. Otherwise, It really just doesn't ever happen.

Also, Besides maintaining a size, weight, dexterity, and strength advantage, we can also expect a cave lion to have superior vision and reaction time that most cat panthera species maintain over canis species. The wolf has a better nose, but in a fight, that is less useful. Really the more I look into it, the worse and worse it looks for direwolves.

Not that you can't believe what you want. Its a fantasy series after all. I just wanted to clear up a few realities.

Edited April 7 by Club-foot cleft-lips
way to weigh. damn homonyms

[Alden Rothack]

6 minutes ago, Club-foot cleft-lips said:

Irish wolfhounds are are in a competitive weight with seven of the fifteen heaviest dog breeds, none in that range gaining more than 15 pounds on them at the heaviest end.  Even if we measure direwolves by four times the average weight of the heaviest dog breed, the mastiffs, we are still only getting to just as heavy as cave lions. And by all accounts, they are not built like mastiff's but like large headed wolves, gaunt like ghost, with the initial weight I provided by being correctly proportional to the weight of real wolves, converted to the size proportionality of the largest breeds of pony. If it was much bigger, say as big as a destrier, Bran would have said so. Based on size and skeletal limitations, its unlikely a Dire wolf could way more than 500 lbs, more likely being somewhere in the 400 lbs (or 200 kg) range, at the highest.

And Bran was obviously describing the size. You don't eyeball something's weight. He's a child after all. 

Twice the weight of a wolfhound wouldn't be 300 lbs would be 240 at the highest. But even so, at 600 lbs like you proposed, its still less than a cave lions weight, which average in the 700+ lbs range. 

And their are no recorded instances of a wolves ever predating or killing healthy adult lions in the wild, and especially no cases of single wolves killing a healthy adult male lion. Cubs and the already dying, sure, but none full grown and healthy. and even the sick and injured lions they fight, they fight as a pack. Otherwise, It really just doesn't ever happen.

Also, Besides maintaining a size, weight, dexterity, and strength advantage, we can also expect a cave lion to have superior vision and reaction time that most cat panthera species maintain over canis species. The wolf has a better nose, but in a fight, that is less useful. Really the more I look into it, the worse and worse it looks for direwolves.

Not that you can't believe what you want. Its a fantasy series after all. I just wanted to clear up a few realities.

no it wouldn't because wolfhounds weigh from 150lbs to 180lbs, they are extremely lightly built for their length, a mastiff for example is up to double the weight despite the wolf hound being on average much longer, a wolf the size of a pony would be a lot more than that.

if the difference was as great as you claim no wolf would ever come near a lion and they do, we also specifically know that direwolves in the books can kill armoured knights, something I doubt is the case for lions.

you clear up nothing because your realities are nonsense, the lion has a huge advantage over a wolf to the degree it does because its a lot bigger, if it was better for its size then even a entire pack of wolves would have no chance against a single lion.

wolves and in particular direwolves are very good at killing bigger things

 

[Club-foot cleft-lips]

6 minutes ago, Alden Rothack said:

no it wouldn't because wolfhounds weigh from 150lbs to 180lbs, they are extremely lightly built for their length, a mastiff for example is up to double the weight despite the wolf hound being on average much longer, a wolf the size of a pony would be a lot more than that.

sources putting irish wolf hounds in the weight range of 120:

"On average, a full-grown Irish Wolfhound weighs between 90-140 pounds depending on the dog's gender, genetic lineage, and lifestyle

https://www.pawlicy.com/blog/irish-wolfhound-growth-and-weight-chart/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Wolfhound#Characteristics

https://www.akc.org/dog-breeds/irish-wolfhound/

https://www.thesprucepets.com/irish-wolfhound-dog-breed-profile-4776801

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Wolfhound

 

Further size comparison between wolfhound and mastiff:

The Irish Wolfhound has an overall average body length of roughly 46”-50.5” (117-128 cm), standing height of 41”-45” (104-114 cm)

The Mastiff has an overall average body length of roughly 44.5”-53” (113-135 cm), standing height of 35”-42” (89-107 cm)

 

25 minutes ago, Alden Rothack said:

if the difference was as great as you claim no wolf would ever come near a lion and they do, we also specifically know that direwolves in the books can kill armoured knights, something I doubt is the case for lions.

I invite you to show literally any source supporting wolves going after or hunting healthy lions.

again that was the large pack of wolves, the story itself acknowledges all but nymeria, who has arya to temper her psyche, are afraid of "iron men"  

and in a fight between an armored man and a lion id pick a lion

"Wild lions were seen during the reign of Lord Tytos Lannister, as the first knight of House Clegane, the kennelmaster at the Rock, saved Tytos from a lioness and lost a leg and three dogs in the effort"

32 minutes ago, Alden Rothack said:

you clear up nothing because your realities are nonsense, the lion has a huge advantage over a wolf to the degree it does because its a lot bigger, if it was better for its size then even a entire pack of wolves would have no chance against a single lion.

 

you start here with an ad hominem attack, and then admit that a lion would have the size advantage, something a cave lion would maintain over a direwolf, while in the second part you argue that because a pack of wolves of indeterminate size might be able to beat one regular lion, a lion must be worse, which is silly because numbers are often how weaker beings overcome superior physique. so the end of your argument here is sort of a straw man.

38 minutes ago, Alden Rothack said:

wolves and in particular direwolves are very good at killing bigger things

larger herbivores, attacked in packs, but not carnivore like bears, or very large herbivores like moose or other mega fauna. certainly not lions.

 

 

And if im being honest, all the bad faith arguments and goalpost moving you've provided is just sort of tiring. Its like your arguing just to not back down. It feels unlikely this debate is going anywhere positive, and I know when to walk away. I wish you the best of luck, but I think the strategy is just to ignore you from now on. Peace. 

[Alden Rothack]

2 minutes ago, Club-foot cleft-lips said:

sources putting irish wolf hounds in the weight range of 120:

"On average, a full-grown Irish Wolfhound weighs between 90-140 pounds depending on the dog's gender, genetic lineage, and lifestyle

https://www.pawlicy.com/blog/irish-wolfhound-growth-and-weight-chart/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Wolfhound#Characteristics

https://www.akc.org/dog-breeds/irish-wolfhound/

https://www.thesprucepets.com/irish-wolfhound-dog-breed-profile-4776801

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Wolfhound

 

Further size comparison between wolfhound and mastiff:

The Irish Wolfhound has an overall average body length of roughly 46”-50.5” (117-128 cm), standing height of 41”-45” (104-114 cm)

The Mastiff has an overall average body length of roughly 44.5”-53” (113-135 cm), standing height of 35”-42” (89-107 cm)

 

I invite you to show literally any source supporting wolves going after or hunting healthy lions.

again that was the large pack of wolves, the story itself acknowledges all but nymeria, who has arya to temper her psyche, are afraid of "iron men"  

and in a fight between an armored man and a lion id pick a lion

"Wild lions were seen during the reign of Lord Tytos Lannister, as the first knight of House Clegane, the kennelmaster at the Rock, saved Tytos from a lioness and lost a leg and three dogs in the effort"

you start here with an ad hominem attack, and then admit that a lion would have the size advantage, something a cave lion would maintain over a direwolf, while in the second part you argue that because a pack of wolves of indeterminate size might be able to beat one regular lion, a lion must be worse, which is silly because numbers are often how weaker beings overcome superior physique. so the end of your argument here is sort of a straw man.

larger herbivores, attacked in packs, but not carnivore like bears, or very large herbivores like moose or other mega fauna. certainly not lions.

 

 

And if im being honest, all the bad faith arguments and goalpost moving you've provided is just sort of tiring. Its like your arguing just to not back down. It feels unlikely this debate is going anywhere positive, and I know when to walk away. I wish you the best of luck, but I think the strategy is just to ignore you from now on. Peace. 

120lbs is the minimum per wikipedia with 150-180lbs being more like per same

Your assessment of the size of a pony being is eually if not more flawed, it is true we don't know for sure whether a direwolf would beat a lion which was the actual point before you started your own lies and goal post moving

However if you wish to bow out then do so.

[the trees have eyes]

19 hours ago, Club-foot cleft-lips said:

no, not really

if a westerosi direwolf is around the size or even somewhat bigger than a pony, and lets for example use a scottish highland pony as a prototype (or another of the largest pony breeds), that would put it in a size range of 130-150 cm in height, and approximately 170-195 centimeter length range. given the average proportions and weight of real wolves, that would put a direwolf in the weight range of 90-100kg. maybe up to 100-120kg a bit more with that big head and all. generously we could go up to 200 kg.

I'm no expert but the GRRM described it as bigger than Bran's pony.  Is Bran's pony small because he's still quite young or is it typical for whatever breed of pony it might be?  We can't really know.  Asking the internet, that most reliable and constant of sources, how much a pony weighs I found 1) Ponies are smaller [than horses] and can range from a Shetland pony at 180–200kg to a larger breed like the fell pony at 350–450kg (Town and Country) and 2) ponies usually weigh between 771 lbs to 992 lbs (350 kg to 450 kg) (Equishop). 

We can try and translate that to a wolf's physique but it's not something we'll ever be able to compare against the notional cave lion of Westeros as we don't actually know the size of either.  It's fun to speculate but up in the air.  Unless Nymeria meets one at some point 

[Alden Rothack]

23 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

I'm no expert but the GRRM described it as bigger than Bran's pony.  Is Bran's pony small because he's still quite young or is it typical for whatever breed of pony it might be?  We can't really know.  Asking the internet, that most reliable and constant of sources, how much a pony weighs I found 1) Ponies are smaller [than horses] and can range from a Shetland pony at 180–200kg to a larger breed like the fell pony at 350–450kg (Town and Country) and 2) ponies usually weigh between 771 lbs to 992 lbs (350 kg to 450 kg) (Equishop). 

We can try and translate that to a wolf's physique but it's not something we'll ever be able to compare against the notional cave lion of Westeros as we don't actually know the size of either.  It's fun to speculate but up in the air.  Unless Nymeria meets one at some point 

While I wouldn't be suprised if westeros had cave lions at some point

the only recent incident involving a lion suggests it is at best normal lion sized, a pack of hounds against a lion is impressive but doable, a pack of hounds against a cave lion is not.

Back to the direwolves, Bran was comparing the size, though the direwolf weighing more than Brans pony isn't unlikely, Grey Wind and Ghost do seem to be large pony height though weight is uncertain.

a scale up would conservatively put it at five times the weight of a real wolf