Any predictions for a TWOW prologue?

[KingStoneheart]

I never knew that he’d specifically debunked anything about Ilyn Payne, which is a shame. If not him, then I suspect Sybil Spicer doing some magic stuff then

I do also agree with one of the comments that just because Arya doesn’t see anything in her sample chapter genuinely doesn’t mean anything. It’s a teaser sample chapter and things will be added in once it’s fully released.

[Hippocras]

20 hours ago, Mithras said:

 

I agree with most of this, but was a bit unsure about the Nymeria and Cersei parts of the post. I don't find it all that reliable to try to construct precise timelines and use them to draw conclusions. For one thing, we don't even know if Mercy is Arya's first chapter in Winds. And if it is, as Swyft was already commanded to leave for Braavos before Cersei's difficulties, I am not as convinced as others seem to be that she needs to be "back" in power before Mercy. It could be a case of jumping back a bit in the timeline for a different location.

Also, the sample chapters are not necessarily complete. Some details may have been left out of Mercy. Others may change.

As far as I can tell there is no SSM saying Nymeria is not in the prologue, though I am not overly attached to the idea. Whether Nymeria makes an appearance or not, it doesn't change the fact that Sybell Spicer/Westerling will be in the prologue if Jeyne is because they are travelling together. It therefore does not change my theory that her dabbling in magic she learned from her grandmother Maggy the Frog is likely to play some sort of role.

Edited April 13 by Hippocras

[Hippocras]

There is of course one other possibility that should be picked apart for its merits here:

The possibility of a Jeyne swap. For this to work Sybell would need to be complicit, and given that she thought she would be rewarded by the Lannisters it is hard to see why she would be. 

But let’s say maybe Sybell has some future reading abilities as her grandmother did. Maybe she foresaw that she would get less than she wanted from the Lannisters and wanted to have more bargaining power. So she chose a serving girl or peasant at Riverrun to play Jeyne (description was different after all).

In this case, Jeyne might not be with Sybell, but with the Blackfish. Which could certainly make for an interesting prologue.

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Jeyne_Westerling/Theories

 

Edited April 14 by Hippocras

[KingStoneheart]

Although the Jeyne swapping would be cool and like you say would kind of throw us off the scent for predicting the prologue, am I not right in saying that GRRM specifically debunked this? Or has he not spoken about it

Also on the topic of debunking stuff, if I was a writer I’d probably throw in a few lies here and there during interviews. Like I’m not just going to tell you the answers as you’ll need to read the books and after all this is what’s cannon, not what I say out loud in the real world 

[StarkTullies]

On 4/9/2024 at 11:27 PM, Castellan said:

Ice and Fire themes alternate. The next one should be fire themed.

That's an interesting idea, but I see the Prologues as alternating between Others/wights and not-Others/Wights.  I don't think Pate's prologue chapter in AFFC really has anything to do with fire unless you're really seeking to make everything in the story about either ice or fire.

On 4/10/2024 at 6:07 AM, Hippocras said:

Anyway, assuming this is true, my guess is the prologue will have something to do with Sybell Spicer

This is what I'm thinking and hoping.  I hope Sybell Spicer Westerling is the POV character in the Prologue, and even though George Martin said he isn't committed to the POV character always dying in the Prologues, I would not be sad to see her go.  She sacrificed her son for a power-grab, and I don't believe for a moment that she didn't have a good idea that Raynald was walking into a massacre.  I generally don't like the claim of "If you didn't see them die, they aren't dead", but I hope Raynald is alive and has joined the Brotherhood, and Sybell sees her son that she betrayed watching as Lady Stoneheart hangs her.  Sybell Spicer Westerling is definitely one of the most despicable minor characters in the story.

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, StarkTullies said:

That's an interesting idea, but I see the Prologues as alternating between Others/wights and not-Others/Wights.  I don't think Pate's prologue chapter in AFFC really has anything to do with fire unless you're really seeking to make everything in the story about either ice or fire.

This is what I'm thinking and hoping.  I hope Sybell Spicer Westerling is the POV character in the Prologue, and even though George Martin said he isn't committed to the POV character always dying in the Prologues, I would not be sad to see her go.  She sacrificed her son for a power-grab, and I don't believe for a moment that she didn't have a good idea that Raynald was walking into a massacre.  I generally don't like the claim of "If you didn't see them die, they aren't dead", but I hope Raynald is alive and has joined the Brotherhood, and Sybell sees her son that she betrayed watching as Lady Stoneheart hangs her.  Sybell Spicer Westerling is definitely one of the most despicable minor characters in the story.

Her readiness to sacrifice her own children for gain is disgusting.

[Castellan]

12 hours ago, StarkTullies said:

That's an interesting idea, but I see the Prologues as alternating between Others/wights and not-Others/Wights.  I don't think Pate's prologue chapter in AFFC really has anything to do with fire unless you're really seeking to make everything in the story about either ice or fire.

This is what I'm thinking and hoping.  I hope Sybell Spicer Westerling is the POV character in the Prologue, and even though George Martin said he isn't committed to the POV character always dying in the Prologues, I would not be sad to see her go.  She sacrificed her son for a power-grab, and I don't believe for a moment that she didn't have a good idea that Raynald was walking into a massacre.  I generally don't like the claim of "If you didn't see them die, they aren't dead", but I hope Raynald is alive and has joined the Brotherhood, and Sybell sees her son that she betrayed watching as Lady Stoneheart hangs her.  Sybell Spicer Westerling is definitely one of the most despicable minor characters in the story.

I agree its less obvious than some, but there is al lot of talk about dragons, and glass candles, - which seems important news to me - that people in the Citadel are aware - it shows the fire side of the conflict heating up. And not just militarily with a dragon princess at the head of a military force but that Marwyn may understand the battle for life/death that underlies it. However the introduction of the faceless man to the Citadel is a major element which I agree is a bit of s stretch to see as fire unless we basically equate Essos with fire and westeros with ice. If anything as he is an assassin you would think he belongs on the icier side of things.

 

[H Wadsworth Longfellow]

The prologue is not going to come from a primary character.  In other words, it will not come from Daenerys, Bran, or Tyrion.  It will be a Sansa or a Jaime kind of chapter.  Something like that.  It will start with some set up like the one from A Dance with Dragons explaining the rules of skinchanging. 

[House Cambodia]

21 hours ago, Hippocras said:

The possibility of a Jeyne swap.

It sounds alright in isolation, but we're already juggling enough identity-swaps in our heads: fAegon, fArya, baby Monster - tossing in another one would stretch narrative credulity. I think further identity-swaps should sick to warging and the Faceless Men.

[Groo]

20 hours ago, H Wadsworth Longfellow said:

The prologue is not going to come from a primary character.  In other words, it will not come from Daenerys, Bran, or Tyrion.  It will be a Sansa or a Jaime kind of chapter.  Something like that. 

How is Sansa not a "primary" character? We've had 20 Bran chapters and 24 Sansa chapters.

[Lady Ella]

I think the main purpose of this prologue will be to signal growing trouble for the Lannisters. I agree with the theory that there's going to be a rescue attempt. While I would like to think that both Edmure and Jeyne will survive, those archers that Jaime appointed make it likely that at least one of them will die. The scenario that would cause maximum disruption for the Lannisters would be Edmure being rescued and Jeyne being killed by Lannister archers in front of her father. The Westerlings may not have much hard power, but they do have soft power. And Lord Westerling will surely not be the only western lord counting the cost of the Lannisters' war. I'm not saying the western lords will launch a full-scale rebellion against Casterly Rock, but I do think they'll start causing trouble for the Lannisters.

I also like the idea of magic coming into play through Sybelle Spicer or even Jeyne. Surely the connection with Maggy the Frog has to come into play somewhere. I can't imagine what form the magic would take, though. Another prophecy?

[Club-foot cleft-lips]

I've just sort of skimmed this thread so far, but I like the idea of a rescue attempt too.

But I want it to be the Meereen rescue attempt, maybe with Hero or Jhogo as the pov, and it ending with Daario fulfilling the second betrayal of Dany (maybe while thinking she is dead) ending the chapter where he kills Jhogo and betrays Meereen for a promise of gold.

[Castellan]

On 4/15/2024 at 9:24 AM, H Wadsworth Longfellow said:

The prologue is not going to come from a primary character.  In other words, it will not come from Daenerys, Bran, or Tyrion.  It will be a Sansa or a Jaime kind of chapter.  Something like that.  It will start with some set up like the one from A Dance with Dragons explaining the rules of skinchanging. 

ahem. I think Jaime and Sansa are major POVS and equivalent to Dany, Bran and Tyrion. So far all prologues have been from a once-off POV. We may have seen the characters before in other chapters - e.g. Chett - but they haven't had a POV and they then end up dead:
Will-Cressen-Chett-Pate-Varamyr

I agree that the prologues include some sort of 'set up' as you say. Its hard to pin down exactly how they differ from other chapters and I think there are ordinary chapters that resemble the POV chapters.

I think the Varamyr prologue is probably there to get some ideas in around Jon's fate. We aleady knew about skinchanging and could guess that Jon might survive that way but this chapter shows how that might feel to him.It also shows the possible miserable lonely fate of a body hopping skinchanger whose original body is lost - so that will be in our minds even if we do see him in warg chapter. I have been assuming that his body will be thrown in an ice cell or something and be able to be revived by Melisandre, but this way we can't be sure of that happy result.

I think the prologue to TWOW would be in a particular setting and raise issues or provide some information and then in the next chapters the story moves away from that setting. So yes, as seems a popular notion, it could follow up the Riverrun prisoner column, show Sybil Spicer up to something, then shift to one of the big battles for several chapters.

But there are lots of other possibilities.

 

Edited April 16 by Castellan

[House Cambodia]

10 hours ago, Lady Ella said:

Surely the connection with Maggy the Frog has to come into play somewhere.

Just a passing thought, but wouldn't it be delicious if Sybell prophesies to Jamie that he will be killed by his sister?!

Edited April 16 by House Cambodia

[Hippocras]

42 minutes ago, House Cambodia said:

Just a passing thought, but wouldn't it be delicious if Sybell prophesies to Jamie that he will be killed by his sister?!

Nice!

Haven't they already left in separate directions though? I suppose they could cross paths again via the BwB but I tend to think Jaime's fate (and Brienne's, and Pod's) will not be resolved in this prologue. They will have their own chapters. So I am not sure the BwB will appear.

 

While I tend to agree with others above and elsewhere that there is a fairly well established pattern in the prologues of alternating "Ice" and "Fire", it is also true that the Oldtown prologue is harder to place. IMO it might be a case of these categories deliberately getting more muddy and less clear cut. We might be getting into territory with magical influences that are more nuanced and maybe corrupted.

Sybell descends from Maggy, but Maggy's magic is much harder to place than pure "fire" or "ice". Sybell herself made some potions which is a more classical "witch" type method, and is not even necessarily magical (simply medicinal). We don't know if she can taste blood and read futures, and we don't have any hint so far of anything else either. So whatever she can do, it will be a big reveal if it is indeed her magic that features in the prologue. It will also IMO tell us more about her Essosi origins and influences which will ultimately be relevant to Dany as she burns her way across Essos (IMO) as well as clarifying more subtle moments with similar origins and influences in other characters, other parts of Westeros.

There are in fact whole regions of Essos with different religions than R'hllor, each with their own magical practices. The histories GRRM has constructed suggest that the East has always been meddling in subtle ways whenever given a chance in the affairs of Westeros and all of these magical guilds or religions or whatnot may now be trying to assert themselves as Westerosi governance shows signs of severe weakness. In short, this prologue might not be "fire" or "ice" but rather... "mud". 

Edited April 16 by Hippocras

[Pontius Pilate]

On 4/11/2024 at 12:42 AM, Groo said:

So far bringing people back from the dead has only been R'hllor and fire magic. Maybe we get a Bowen Marsh prologue where he witnesses Melisandre bring Jon back to life before Bowen is killed in the chaos following the mutiny.

It depends on what you mean by bringing people back.  The Others do it all the time.  Fire  or ice doesn't seem to matter much.  The people brought back are far from whole.  Jon won't be any different.  He might come back but he will be missing a lot of his mental capacity as well as his memories.  And those will fade each day he lives on borrowed time.

[Castellan]

43 minutes ago, Pontius Pilate said:

It depends on what you mean by bringing people back.  The Others do it all the time.  Fire  or ice doesn't seem to matter much.  The people brought back are far from whole.  Jon won't be any different.  He might come back but he will be missing a lot of his mental capacity as well as his memories.  And those will fade each day he lives on borrowed time.

The wights made by the Others seem to simply be zombies. We don't know how much if at all they control their own actions and if they have any higher thought. Maybe you really do need them on mass to get much use out of them.

The fire wights seem to retain a lot of themselves initially and lose it with each revival. Although I actually think the way Beric discussed his fate was very human and more like fatigue than intrinsically changing. Perhaps its like accelerated aging.

 

[Groo]

1 hour ago, Pontius Pilate said:

It depends on what you mean by bringing people back.  The Others do it all the time.

@Castellan reply above matches what I would have said. If it wasn't clear, I did mean bring back as a conscience thinking being. So far, from what we've seen the wights do appear to be little more than zombies.

[House Cambodia]

5 hours ago, Pontius Pilate said:

It depends on what you mean by bringing people back. 

I'd say the most significant example we've had so far is Lady Stoneheart. Jon won't be exactly like her as his mind wasn't filled with thoughts of hatred and vengeance at the moment of death, but he still has to be very different from pre-dead Jon. The show's depiction of resurrected Jon was farcical, with him being exactly the same pre-dead and post-dead.

[Castellan]

He may just have an otherworldly air. Or like raw meat. He will have been in Ghost, I assume.