Any predictions for a TWOW prologue?

[FantasyCreature]

On 4/13/2024 at 1:00 PM, Hippocras said:

how in the world do you remove these things once you've selected them?! by the way, this is not what Hippocras said, it's a mistake from my side

On 4/10/2024 at 8:57 AM, Castellan said:

Ice and Fire themes alternate. The next one should be fire themed.

I've never noticed that before. It's amazing how much you all catch.

On 4/10/2024 at 5:24 PM, House Cambodia said:

Do you think it's possible some of the sample chapters we've long had were unfinished versions?

That's a new thought. I think so, or at least they'll be edited somewhat.

On 4/10/2024 at 11:00 PM, KingStoneheart said:

I hope he has, but that’s mainly just because I’ve not read them and don’t think it’s fair that others get to read them before me and before the book is officially out haha

You can read those chapters online or get a PDF for them. I might be mistaken, but I think they have no copyright on them yet? Since some are fan recountings and others have been provided by GRRM for us to read.

On 4/11/2024 at 1:21 AM, Mithras said:

Because of the division among the brotherhood, he will not have as much men as he wanted and this will be one of the primary reasons for the failure. When he returns with the survivors, there will surely be an even more heated discussion among the brotherhood.

I like your reasoning, it might be close to what happens. But I don't understand the point of this prologue then. Is it that either Jeyne or Edmure will die because the rescue attempt fails?

On 4/13/2024 at 1:00 PM, Hippocras said:

It therefore does not change my theory that her dabbling in magic she learned from her grandmother Maggy the Frog is likely to play some sort of role.

I remember reading that Jeyne's grandmother was some kind of witch, but was she specifically mentioned to be Maggy? I mean, there's not many other possible candidates I suppose, but it could have been someone else. And then, if Maggy was Sybell's mother, what was she doing in Lannisport for such a long time (the common people had also come to know her)? Was she kicked out of the family for some reason...?

On 4/14/2024 at 12:43 PM, Hippocras said:

In this case, Jeyne might not be with Sybell, but with the Blackfish. Which could certainly make for an interesting prologue.

*cough cough* Sorry, you just reminded me of a theory I dislike. But there's been too many swaps, and I think the different description was said to be an error. Unlikely in my opinion.

On 4/14/2024 at 3:16 PM, StarkTullies said:

I generally don't like the claim of "If you didn't see them die, they aren't dead", but I hope Raynald is alive and has joined the Brotherhood, and Sybell sees her son that she betrayed watching as Lady Stoneheart hangs her.  Sybell Spicer Westerling is definitely one of the most despicable minor characters in the story.

Would be a good end for her, I'd say. Can anyone remind me if she had any reaction to Raynard's probable death in the Red Wedding? I think she had asked about him, but didn't seem too sad.

On 4/16/2024 at 1:56 AM, Lady Ella said:

I think the main purpose of this prologue will be to signal growing trouble for the Lannisters. I agree with the theory that there's going to be a rescue attempt. While I would like to think that both Edmure and Jeyne will survive, those archers that Jaime appointed make it likely that at least one of them will die. The scenario that would cause maximum disruption for the Lannisters would be Edmure being rescued and Jeyne being killed by Lannister archers in front of her father. The Westerlings may not have much hard power, but they do have soft power. And Lord Westerling will surely not be the only western lord counting the cost of the Lannisters' war. I'm not saying the western lords will launch a full-scale rebellion against Casterly Rock, but I do think they'll start causing trouble for the Lannisters.

I like this idea.

22 hours ago, House Cambodia said:

Just a passing thought, but wouldn't it be delicious if Sybell prophesies to Jamie that he will be killed by his sister?!

Isn't it supposed to be the other way around? Jaime turns out to be the valonqar and kills her? Maybe it's mutual destruction or something. It would solidify Jaime's new feelings (or lack of feelings) for Cersei, but why would Sybell randomly give a prophecy to Jaime?

2 hours ago, House Cambodia said:

Jon won't be exactly like her as his mind wasn't filled with thoughts of hatred and vengeance at the moment of death, but he still has to be very different from pre-dead Jon.

He was thinking about killing Ramsay just before he left the hall... Will that affect him? Or is it just the immediate feelings before death? In that case I guess he was shocked and betrayed. And just before that, he was thinking of controlling the chaos and saving Wun Wun. I'll be sad to see Jon change, but hopefully he will learn something about sharing his plans with others.

[House Cambodia]

2 minutes ago, FantasyCreature said:

23 hours ago, House Cambodia said:

Just a passing thought, but wouldn't it be delicious if Sybell prophesies to Jamie that he will be killed by his sister?!

Isn't it supposed to be the other way around? Jaime turns out to be the valonqar and kills her? Maybe it's mutual destruction or something. It would solidify Jaime's new feelings (or lack of feelings) for Cersei, but why would Sybell randomly give a prophecy to Jaime?

My point is, it would be a huge plot twist. Yes, Cercei has been paranoid about the 'younger brother' killing her since childhood. Wouldn't it be tasty if Jamie were to come to believe that she planned to murder him?!

It wouldn't be random if Jamie is leading a rescue team that ends up  (unintentionally) killing Jayne. With Jayne being her daughter-in-law, possibly carrying her grandchild, Stoneheart might conceivably (!) send Jamie to rescue her.

[FantasyCreature]

7 minutes ago, House Cambodia said:

My point is, it would be a huge plot twist. Yes, Cercei has been paranoid about the 'younger brother' killing her since childhood. Wouldn't it be tasty if Jamie were to come to believe that she planned to murder him?!

It would indeed, I have to say. It would finally shatter any affection he might still feel for her.

7 minutes ago, House Cambodia said:

It wouldn't be random if Jamie is leading a rescue team that ends up  (unintentionally) killing Jayne. With Jayne being her daughter-in-law, possibly carrying her grandchild, Stoneheart might conceivably (!) send Jamie to rescue her.

Hmmm, yes, that would bring them together. About Stoneheart, it's possible, but there's another thing that might happen. Since she has lost her compassion and love and has completely changed from Catelyn... she might see Jeyne as one of the reasons for Robb's downfall. It could seem to her that if Robb hadn't married Jeyne, they wouldn't have lost the Freys and the Red Wedding wouldn't have happened (a feeling that I used to share until I was kindly educated by this forum). My point is, she could hate Jeyne and the Westerlings now and attempt to kill them. 

Or, maybe she would send someone (Jaime perhaps, as you say) to "rescue" Jeyne so that ultimately she can be the one to have Jeyne killed.

Edited April 17 by FantasyCreature
added a point in the end

[Castellan]

@FantasyCreature about Sybil, I think she is just in denial about her son being dead, because there was no body. She spoke rather roughly to Jaime, wanting answers or demanding he help find him or something. Pretty dumb not to send him away like the Freys sent away their relatives who were friendly with Robb.

[Mithras]

1 hour ago, FantasyCreature said:

I like your reasoning, it might be close to what happens. But I don't understand the point of this prologue then. Is it that either Jeyne or Edmure will die because the rescue attempt fails?

I think both Edmure and Jeyne will be killed during the rescue attempt. I think the BwB will eventually abandon Lady Stoneheart. This failure will be one of the factors leading to it. 

[Hippocras]

2 hours ago, FantasyCreature said:

I remember reading that Jeyne's grandmother was some kind of witch, but was she specifically mentioned to be Maggy? I mean, there's not many other possible candidates I suppose, but it could have been someone else. And then, if Maggy was Sybell's mother, what was she doing in Lannisport for such a long time (the common people had also come to know her)? Was she kicked out of the family for some reason...?

*cough cough* Sorry, you just reminded me of a theory I dislike. But there's been too many swaps, and I think the different description was said to be an error. Unlikely in my opinion.

Yes, Sybell’s grandmother was confirmed to be Maggy the Frog. Which is why I am quite confident that Sybell’s abilities, whatever they may be, are relevant to the prologue; they tie in the to bigger picture of the story in many different ways. Cersei, Dany’s encounters in Essos, whatever the heck is up with Harrenhal and its “curse”…. etc.

I don’t think that a simple rescue attempt by the BwB is magical enough, nor do I think it is something that needs to be in a prologue because the BwB has PoV characters to tell their story. The prologues usually happen outside of the main action, giving us windows on people and places we would otherwise not see.

 

As for the Jeyne swap, I am not attached. Not going to push that angle at all. I just thought it should be part of this discussion because it is the only way we could imagine a prologue with Jeyne Westerling but without her mother.

Edited April 17 by Hippocras

[Daena the Defiant]

On 4/10/2024 at 6:33 AM, Hippocras said:

Based on information we have then, this is my best guess:

1. Jeyne, Sybell, Edmure and company are on their way to the Westerlands, but probably not arrived.

2. Sybell is insulted by Jaime and angry about his contempt at Riverrun. She is still scheming to get her children lordly (not bastard) matches.

3. Part of the scheme she concocts makes use of magic she learned from her grandmother.

4. Her efforts are interrupted by Nymeria's pack. Nymeria possibly protects Jeyne and Edmure during the subsequent slaughter, and via Nymeria Arya learns something of Sybell's methods.

 

If it is from Lady Sipcer than I would be pleased since the prologue POV character always dies.

[Nisachar]

Wasn’t Jeyne holed up long enough at the Riverrun Castle to birth her and Robb’s child (assuming they did manage to conceive?) and wouldn’t it be right up Lady Sybelle’s alley to ensure a backup in case the Lannisters start acting funny?

if so, then BF has the baby. It’s unclear where he would abscond with the baby though and who could keep him/her safe.

[Hippocras]

1 hour ago, Daena the Defiant said:

 

If it is from Lady Sipcer than I would be pleased since the prologue POV character always dies.

SS being the magical actor in the prologue would probably mean she was not the POV but an antagonist character in it.  I think Varamyr’s prologue was the only one where the two things (POV and magical actor) were one and the same, and that was for the specific purpose of revealing the memory aspect of the wights and giving us insights we could not otherwise get into warging.

She could die even if not the POV, just pointing out that if so it would not likely be because of the POV dying pattern.

[FantasyCreature]

7 hours ago, Castellan said:

@FantasyCreature about Sybil, I think she is just in denial about her son being dead, because there was no body. She spoke rather roughly to Jaime, wanting answers or demanding he help find him or something. Pretty dumb not to send him away like the Freys sent away their relatives who were friendly with Robb.

I see, thanks for the reminder. It was indeed dumb. Or I guess she expected a more targeted attack, not the massacre...

7 hours ago, Mithras said:

I think both Edmure and Jeyne will be killed during the rescue attempt. I think the BwB will eventually abandon Lady Stoneheart. This failure will be one of the factors leading to it. 

Yet another blow to the Starks (kind of). Well, I didn't like Stoneheart, and that's just waiting to happen. Hopefully the Brotherhood won't become lawless outlaws afterwards.

6 hours ago, Hippocras said:

Yes, Sybell’s grandmother was confirmed to be Maggy the Frog. Which is why I am quite confident that Sybell’s abilities, whatever they may be, are relevant to the prologue;

Thank you for the confirmation. Yes, then I could also see some magic in the prologue. Also agreed with the rest of what you said.

1 hour ago, Daena the Defiant said:

 

If it is from Lady Sipcer than I would be pleased since the prologue POV character always dies.

Apparently this time he's going to (or might) shatter our expectations by keeping the POV alive. But then, he might subvert this expectation and instead keep it alive... I have no idea. 

55 minutes ago, Nisachar said:

Wasn’t Jeyne holed up long enough at the Riverrun Castle to birth her and Robb’s child (assuming they did manage to conceive?) and wouldn’t it be right up Lady Sybelle’s alley to ensure a backup in case the Lannisters start acting funny?

if so, then BF has the baby. It’s unclear where he would abscond with the baby though and who could keep him/her safe.

Another new thought. Is this a full theory, can I read it somewhere? I'd like to, I need some hope. 

 

[Mithras]

1 hour ago, FantasyCreature said:

Yet another blow to the Starks (kind of). Well, I didn't like Stoneheart, and that's just waiting to happen. Hopefully the Brotherhood won't become lawless outlaws afterwards.

 

[Nisachar]

On 4/17/2024 at 7:40 PM, FantasyCreature said:

Another new thought. Is this a full theory, can I read it somewhere? I'd like to, I need some hope. 

BF is ripping Jamie a new one in the duel of words:

Jamie (talking about the boy, the young wolf): He’s no less dead, 
and his kingdom died when he did.”
BF: “You must be blind as well as maimed, ser. 
Lift your eyes, and you will see that the direwolf still flies above our walls.”
Jamie: “I’ve seen him. He looks lonely.

(Lone direwolf, flying = Bran, yes. But can also work for a baby Brandon/Eddard or Lyana/Catelyn)

This isn’t proof, but I also got faint vibes in the inn at the cross road Arya chapter, the one where she killed that green arrow squire, likely belonging to the same house that shot the ‘Cupid’s arrow, wounding Robb in his legs leading to the whole imbroglio.

it isn’t out of the realm of possibilities, given the conducive conditions and the time frame as well as one of the possible sweet elements in the planned bittersweet ending. Starks indeed might be hard to kill.

 

Emmon Frey: “We have been deceived,” he said. “This man had played us false!”
Jamie: For a man who was going to spend the rest of his life a prisoner, 
Edmure was entirely too pleased with himself.

Jamie: At least the girl did not vanish too. 
Jeyne Westerling had been Robb Stark’s queen, the girl who cost him everything. 
With a wolf in her belly, she could have proved more dangerous than the Blackfish.

When he sees who he thinks is Jeyne: She did not look dangerous.

That’s because she isn’t Jeyne?

Sybelle:“She would not give up the little crown the rebel gave her, 
and when I tried to take it from her head the willful child fought me.”

So perhaps the child is a girl!

Later:

“I am sorry for your loss. The boy had courage, I’ll give him that. 
There is a question I must ask you. Are you carrying his child, my lady?”

Jeyne burst from her chair and would have fled the room if the guard at the door had not seized her by the arm. 
“She is not,” said Lady Sybell, as her daughter struggled to escape. 
“I made certain of that, as your lord father bid me.”

Lady Sybell went off with her lips pressed primly together. 
Jaime had to wonder how much Lord Gawen knew about his wife’s scheming. 
How much do we men ever know?

- Which boy’s child? 
- We get no answer from the girl. Lady Sybell isn’t lying. This girl isn’t pregnant because she isn’t Jeyne?

Later, When escorting the prisoners for a few miles, on their way to Casterly Rock:

Jamie”“Best keep some archers near Lord Westerling’s daughter as well.” 
Ser Forley seemed taken aback. “Gawen’s girl? She’s—” 
“—the Young Wolf’s widow,” Jaime finished, 
“and twice as dangerous as Edmure if she were ever to escape us.” 
“As you say, my lord. She will be watched.”
----
Lady Sybell looked through him with eyes like chips of ice. 
Jeyne never saw him at all. The widow rode with downcast eyes, 
huddled beneath a hooded cloak. Underneath its heavy folds, her clothes were finely made, but torn. 
She ripped them herself, as a mark of mourning, Jaime realized. 
That could not have pleased her mother.

- Heh. Lord Westerling’s daughter, Gawen’s girl!
- no she never saw him at all. Perhaps, she was far away from Riverrun by then. There’s no suggestion she was even at Riverrun when Jamie arrived.

Edited Sunday at 12:49 PM by Nisachar
More potential hints.

[Lady Topspin]

Asha Greyjoy.  The prologue will begin where we last heard of Asha.  It will set up the contest between Asha and Euron as to who will lead the Ironborn. 

[Raven Princling]

As others mentioned, GRRM mentioned Jeyne Westerling being in the prologue.

I always thought it would be about Jeyne and Edmure's party heading west and getting ambushed by BwB and Lady Stoneheart. The POV could be Lady Spicer or just a regular soldier accompanying them. Regardless they get the rope in the end.  People have speculated that Jeyne could be pregnant so that could potentially be revealed in the chapter.

I do like the theories about Nymeria's pack attacking them. Never thought of that. 

[Castellan]

I was reading about Forley Prester. He is shown to be capable and no fool, experienced in warfare and a stubborn and sensible commander in battle. But this emphasis just makes me paradoxically think he is doomed because of the detail about him and about Jaime's consideration of the problem and his increasing the size of the column after Brynden escapes. Because I really think the idea that Jaime has improved militarily is overstated and that in fact he has improved, but not enough. I could see that letting Brynden escape was a fatal error that would come back to get him. I was of the mind that he would find his way to the BWB camp and Jaime would have a fatal encounter with him there. But considering that TWOW was initially titled A Time for Wolves, I can't help seeing that a bloody encounter between the column, and human and animal 'wolves' is on the cards. Even if not necessarily a prologue.

Then I wondered about the name Forley Prester and whether there were any references there. I found that there is a Forley in a Joe Abercrombie novel. He is quite unlike Forley Prester, but he is noted for his fate. He volunteers for a mission as an envoy, and his head is sent back in bag.

PS I was just reading the thread about what we know about TWOW (with summaries of readings etc) and I noticed at one point GRRM said, as part of a list:

Nymeria's wolf pack will become important in one of the last two books.

At the same time he said quite specific things such as that the prologue is already written and Jeyne will feature in it.

This makes me think that the wolf pack won't feature in the prologue, if its placement in the books was still undecided. Unless he didn't want to reveal too much, of course. SIgh

Edited April 19 by Castellan

[sifth]

Probably a Maester. So far it's either been a character beyond The Wall or a Maester.

[Hippocras]

The BwB keeps coming up on this thread, but I really do not think that the prologue will be about the BwB.

As I already said above, the prologues usually give us a window on things we have not been introduced to yet or that we WOULD NOT OTHERWISE SEE. The BwB has not one but two PoV characters already there to tell their story. Not only that, but the BwB's story has become utterly inseparable from those two characters' subsequent activities. It therefore makes zero sense to put BwB action into a different PoV and separate it from the main storylines of Brienne and Jamie.

I am not fully attached to Nymeria's pack appearing in the prologue either, but it would make more sense than the BwB. Arya has only dreams from a wolf's perspective to connect her to Nymeria and she has not taken an active role in guiding those dreams since pulling Stoneheart from the river. Meaning that over in Brraavos, any sense Arya gets of what happens in the prologue is confusing and indirect. Yet Nymeria's connection to Grey Wind would have given the wolf a sense of Sybell Spicer, her brother Rolph, and also of the fact that Raynald and Jeyne were not on the same page with those two.

Also, the Blackfish has escaped Riverrun, but it is still jumping to conclusions a bit to assume that he would automatically end up with the BwB. While he would have trouble travelling unrecognized through the Riverlands, he does also have allies willing to hide him who are not necessarily connected to the BwB. I rather think we will see him next in the Vale. He lived there for more than a decade, has many friends there and used to serve a prestigious role. He would simply tag along in disguise with a group headed there for the tournament.

It remains possible then that NONE of the Blackfish, BwB OR Nymeria plays any role in the prologue. In which case, the prologue may take place not in transit, but on arrival at the Crag. Maybe Sybell's magic has a broader network there, active in the Westerlands in very interesting ways. We have never had a PoV in the West at all and this would be a unique chance to have some insight, finally, into the inner dynamics of Lannister bannermen, some of whom may actually have been connected historically to Houses Reyne and Tarbeck.

[Nisachar]

If the girl Jamie saw at the Castle is not Jeyne and if the prologue might feature the widowed queen, it follows that the BF will be with her.

It's possible we'll get an answer whether Robb and Jeyne had a baby.

Tom O Sevens knows that the BF escaped. It follows then that the BWB may also come to know soon enough which leads to the discovery of Jeyne by the BWB, Lady Stone Heart seeing Robb's child, the heir to Winterfell. Through Alys Karstark we know how the hierarchy of inheritance works. The baby, boy or girl, will supersede all the existing siblings' claims (Peytr machinations via Sansa) and the existing fake heir (Jeyne Poole)

Although plot-wise it speeds up the LSH story which might not sync with other threads. 

It may even be that the prologue will have an open-ended ending, just like Edric's escape, last seen on a boat to adventure. Perhaps we will see Jeyne and the baby surrounded by Nymeria and the wolves...

[Hippocras]

3 hours ago, Nisachar said:

It's possible we'll get an answer whether Robb and Jeyne had a baby.

There is really very little chance of that. Sybell was giving her preventative drinks every day, and Jeyne had no idea so did not stop her. So while I tend to agree that if Jeyne was swapped it is because she was pregnant and in that case the real Jeyne is with the Blackfish, I at the same time very much doubt there was a swap. I put it at less than 10% likelihood.

It would be quite a digression with no satisfying purpose to need to spend any of the little time that is left following the story of Robb's baby because no baby will be in charge of the North in the end. The fact that Robb named Jon as his heir is where this story needs to go next. So I just see no reason why Jeyne having a baby would make the overall series better instead of just dragging it out.

Even if the story needs the North to have a contest for the seat, they already have that contest. Ramsay Bolton is Roose's heir until he has a son (who Ramsay will then murder). Sansa is Ned's trueborn daughter, soon with the backing of the Vale. Jon is not who he was believed to be when Robb named him heir but he WAS named heir. Rickon is alive and will have his own supporters, however briefly. 

Edited April 19 by Hippocras

[Nisachar]

11 hours ago, Hippocras said:

There is really very little chance of that. Sybell was giving her preventative drinks every day, and Jeyne had no idea so did not stop her. So while I tend to agree that if Jeyne was swapped it is because she was pregnant and in that case the real Jeyne is with the Blackfish, I at the same time very much doubt there was a swap. I put it at less than 10% likelihood.

It would be quite a digression with no satisfying purpose to need to spend any of the little time that is left following the story of Robb's baby because no baby will be in charge of the North in the end. The fact that Robb named Jon as his heir is where this story needs to go next. So I just see no reason why Jeyne having a baby would make the overall series better instead of just dragging it out.

Even if the story needs the North to have a contest for the seat, they already have that contest. Ramsay Bolton is Roose's heir until he has a son (who Ramsay will then murder). Sansa is Ned's trueborn daughter, soon with the backing of the Vale. Jon is not who he was believed to be when Robb named him heir but he WAS named heir. Rickon is alive and will have his own supporters, however briefly. 

Well, the Alys Karstark point less side show is there for a reason. Even a daughter will supersede uncles and sons of those uncles in the hierarchy of successions.

it remains to be seen how it’ll pan out but the Starks will once again come back through the female line (Bael if true) - a part of the sweet in the planned bittersweet ending. Sansa will likely rule Winterfell with Robb’s baby (which I think is either twins or a daughter) as the heir.

Besides we shouldn’t trust Lady Sybelle’s claims. Let’s not underestimate Jeyne herself. 

Jamie thinking the hooded girl is Jeyne reminds me of the same Jamie thinking the veiled woman leaving KL is Queen Rhaella. We’ve seen how decoys work : Myrcella on her way to Dorne.

Trust only what the five senses report as advised by Syrio to Arya.

Edited April 20 by Nisachar