Thoughts on ASoIaF Gods?

[KingStoneheart]

So off the top of my head, there’s 4/5 main religions that are prominent in the main storyline so what’s your ranking of these and why? For me, it’s below -

1. Death / Faceless Men Belief - so they just have such a nice, easy and understanding view on life and religion as a whole. This is that every god every created by different culture is one and the same, just telling a different story and that all comes down to the one thing that is certain in life and that’s death.

2. Old Gods - if I had to be religious in Westeros, I’d 100% believe in the Old Gods. The modern day Old Gods just seem so accepting, like yeah you can believe other gods and they may be real but I believe this and that’s okay

3. Drowned God - the reason it’s not higher is because of the whole sacrificing and the Old Way of doing things which is just very backwards and barbaric. Although the reason it’s fifth is because rereading Victarion’s chapter in ADWD this week made me understand that he also has a similar view to the Old Gods in that yeah your god can be real, but on the Iron Islands and in the surrounding seas, our god rules.

4. Faith of the Seven - I just really don’t like the Faith or their views, they seem very similar to die hard Christianity in that they are against everyone else and that only their 7 exist and that sinners must be punished, all that stuff. So yeah I really hate them

5. R’holler - for very similar reasons to the Faith but they’re just that bit more crazy and unforgiving / accepting of other religions.

[Club-foot cleft-lips]

1 hour ago, KingStoneheart said:

1. Death / Faceless Men Belief - so they just have such a nice, easy and understanding view on life and religion as a whole. This is that every god every created by different culture is one and the same, just telling a different story and that all comes down to the one thing that is certain in life and that’s death.

I like the faceless men a lot. in a weird way, their sort of like the Buddhists of asoiaf, in that they see life as suffering, and a main aspect of their religious practice is the extinguishing of the self/identity (death is not evil). Even there universalism in a way resembles the Indian parable of the Blind men and the Elephant, (with ritual blindness being part of initiation/training). all that speak to the potential longevity of this religious practice,

Yet at the same time, they resemble the Hasan-i Sabbah's order of Hassassins, speaking to their potential solubility. 

1 hour ago, KingStoneheart said:

2. Old Gods - if I had to be religious in Westeros, I’d 100% believe in the Old Gods. The modern day Old Gods just seem so accepting, like yeah you can believe other gods and they may be real but I believe this and that’s okay

The old gods feel like they exist far more precariously than many religions. the Celtic religion was eventually pretty much stamped out eventually, and depending on how the coming war for the dawn goes, might be in turn vulnerable to a whole new round of persecution.

Maybe they reemerge as some form of neopaganism, but that would make it more of a cultural religion rather than spiritual. some survival though.

1 hour ago, KingStoneheart said:

3. Drowned God - the reason it’s not higher is because of the whole sacrificing and the Old Way of doing things which is just very backwards and barbaric. Although the reason it’s fifth is because rereading Victarion’s chapter in ADWD this week made me understand that he also has a similar view to the Old Gods in that yeah your god can be real, but on the Iron Islands and in the surrounding seas, our god rules.

They are just the germanic religion, so they have a good chance of being wiped out by the faith of the seven, and with it the old way of reavers. but that will likely require a leader who is a convert to another religion to take them over, like if Theon started worshiping the red god or the seven. like the north, they probably have a few good years, but especially against a fanatic like the high sparrow and the re-emergence of the holy knightly orders, and the soon to be raiding of the sept at old town by Euron, I can only see a soon to come end for them.

1 hour ago, KingStoneheart said:

4. Faith of the Seven - I just really don’t like the Faith or their views, they seem very similar to die hard Christianity in that they are against everyone else and that only their 7 exist and that sinners must be punished, all that stuff. So yeah I really hate them

George R. R. Martin based the Faith of the Seven on the medieval Catholic Church, although it borrows from other elements as well. The Faith's central doctrine that there is one god who has seven aspects—the Father, the Mother, the Maiden, the Crone, the Smith, the Warrior, and the Stranger—is based on the Catholic belief that there is one God who has three aspects: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.

This speaks to their longevity, but also suggests we might get a schism at some point, and in the areas far away from the base of their power, so if the old gods and wet gods go, their is the place we might see opposition in a protestant faith of the seven emerge. 

oversimplifying, the Protestant movement can be traced to the humanist movement, starting with the ad fonte (or return to text) movement with Erasmus. this suggest to me that scholars will be the source of the split, which suggests old town, but given proximity to the faith their, I think we have a better chance of the movement coming from someone like Rodrick the reader or his kin/successor. 

1 hour ago, KingStoneheart said:

5. R’holler - for very similar reasons to the Faith but they’re just that bit more crazy and unforgiving / accepting of other religions.

and finally we have Zoroastrianism, which tell me that not only will the red faith be replaced, what replaces it will eventually be replaced. Manichaeism was a syncretic religion that took aspects of christianity, buddhism, and Zoroastrianism amongst others and dominated western Asia for a time. I see Dany as being the person who will take up this role as a Messiah figure, which will be popular following all the slave revolts and war with the cold. Then will come islam to replace that, but a figure for that role seem far and away.

 

 

Another god to consider is the god of the Dothraki, the sky, from with shamanistic Tengrism.

1 hour ago, KingStoneheart said:

So off the top of my head, there’s 4/5 main religions that are prominent in the main storyline so what’s your ranking of these and why? For me, it’s below -

I guess what I mean to say is, I really like all of them, but with the hindsight of history, I don't want to live with any of them too closely. id rather live on the summer isles, where love is not a crime, and life and spirit is celebrated with joy and not dogmatic obedience.

Edited April 10 by Club-foot cleft-lips
added an a and an s, and finally an h

[Aldarion]

I used to like the Old Gods due to their connection to nature, but right now I am leaning towards the Faith of the Seven. Magic in A Song of Ice and Fire appears to be based around blood sacrifice and murder, and the Seven are the only gods that appear to be against magic. So I like them.

Other than that, I agree with @Club-foot cleft-lips, so nothing to add there.

[PrettyLittlePsycho]

The many-faced-one and the old Gods would be my favorites as well. They do seem to be the most tolerant/least extreme of the major religions.

[Aebram]

Very interesting topic! Religions can be ranked by many different criteria: good versus bad, true versus false, etc. Some of these are very subjective and hard to judge; but tolerance versus intolerance is pretty clear.

The religion of the old gods, with its reverence for spirits of Nature, reminds me of shamanism, which is common among ancient indigenous cultures all over the world. It's probably the human race's first religion. My own belief system is something of a homegrown affair, but respect for Nature is a big part of it.

In Westeros, followers of both the new and old gods seem to get along fairly well. The septons may preach against other faiths, but ordinary people seem to be tolerant of them.

The followers of R'llhor seem to be the most intolerant. Melisandre says more than once that all the other gods are evil, just manifestations of the Great Other. But she's been wrong more than once in her prophecies, so perhaps she's not the most reliable source.

The R'llhorists do seem to be the most skilled at magic. Moqorro, in particular, seems to have a very good track record while guiding Victarion to Slaver's Bay. So perhaps it would rank #1 if we were judging religions by effectiveness, the ability to actually summon supernatural help for their followers.

Edited April 12 by Aebram

[KingStoneheart]

I agree fully with you! When it comes to how real each one is, I’d genuinely be inclined to say that none are real (although I’m an Athiest and not sure how GRRM falls in real life so unsure if he would also do that). My thoughts behind that are that yeah like you say, the Red Priests use literal magic, it’s not them calling to god for guidance or support (in my opinion).

With the Old Gods, yeah lots of nature surrounding it but also as we know from Bran and Theon’s ADWD chapters, there is not really much truth to them as Bran is now the one speaking through the trees whilst I’m pretty sure the Child of the Forest mentions something about their people pretty much being “the Gods”?

Then with the others there’s no proof at all I’d say, just belief

[House Cambodia]

This is a very interesting topic to me, with a Masters in Theology and career teaching and practising Buddhism. I think GRRM has done a superb job presenting his religions as deeply complex and ambivalent.

As others have noted, the House of Black & White and its Faceless Men do reflect Buddhist beliefs and practices, but then they go and assassinate people which rather flies in the face of Buddhism, unless you want to bring in Ninja influenced by a particular interpretation of Zen.

The Old Gods does indeed reflect pre-Christian pagan beliefs and a quasi-animist Nature Religion. The twist is that contra to modern hippy-dippy kumabaya neopaganism, this one seems to involve sinister blood rituals and is quite possibly working with whatever the world-destroying evil force turns out to be.

The Ironborn religion seems to be influenced by the most violent tales of Viking/Teutonic practices - no need to dwell on that, really.

The Seven is admitted by GRRM to be based on the institution of the Medieval Catholic Church, being followed by the masses but corrupting its religious message with wealth and political power. I do like the way rebel movements arise internally - the faith militant, sparrows etc. Movements like this would periodically arise and be crushed by the Church in the Middle Ages.

R'hllor, The Lord of Light, seems based on Manichaeism, a religion that taught Good and Evil and equal and opposite forces conflicting with each other for people's souls and the fate of the cosmos. Its "You're either with us or against us" message of intolerance is ugly; the twist is it might turn out that the Lord of Light is the force to defeat The Great Other! To be more specific, I mean characters - especially Daenerys - might be motivated by such a belief.

GRRM has very wisely stressed that he never portrays any religion as "true" - we merely see them through the points-of-view of believers and unbelievers. Personally, due to the negative points in all of them, I'd want to keep my distance, although I'd definitely give donations and lodgings to Septon Maribold.

[James Steller]

I don’t like any of the main faiths. The Seven are intolerance incarnate, R’hlorr and the old gods both demand grisly sacrifices (stringing up entrails in weirwoods and burning people alive, respectively), and the assassin death cult is exactly that, a death cult.

I’d embrace Stannis’s atheism, personally, but if I have to pick a religion, I’m going straight to the Summer Isles. 

Edited April 12 by James Steller

[Sandy Clegg]

On 4/12/2024 at 8:55 AM, House Cambodia said:

hen they go and assassinate people which rather flies in the face of Buddhism

This reminds of that old joke, which for years I hadn't really understood:

"A Buddhist goes up to a hot dog seller and says: make me one with everything."

I thought the joke was: putting the entire universe on one hot dog, which seemed a little bit abstract but seemed to fit for the premise. But the real joke is that a Buddhist's goal may be to 'become as one' with the universe. Make him 'one' with everything. I'm so dumb.

[House Cambodia]

9 minutes ago, Sandy Clegg said:

This reminds of that old joke, which for years I hadn't really understood:

"A Buddhist goes up to a hot dog seller and says: make me one with everything."

I thought the joke was: putting the entire universe on one hot dog, which seemed a little bit abstract but seemed to fit for the premise. But the real joke is that a Buddhist's goal may be to 'become as one' with the universe. Make him 'one' with everything. I'm so dumb.

What did the hot dog seller say to the Buddhist when he refused to give him change? "Change comes from within."

[Club-foot cleft-lips]

I just thought of this joke (might be dumb):

A Man on the ground floor of a high rise opens the door to an elevator. Inside, he notices two other men waiting within. The two men look at the new man expectantly and ask, "Are you a Buddhist?" When the man answers "Yes," the two others sigh and say, "So are we. Take a seat. Maybe the next person to enter will want to ascend."

 

 

As a side not, @House Cambodia  I just want to express some respect. A close family friend of mine lived though the horrors of the 70s in Cambodia before emigrating. While I don't personally prescribe to Buddhism, I admire the work your fellow scholars and theologians have put in to reviving and preserving that tradition, historically, culturally and spiritually. 

[House Cambodia]

7 hours ago, Club-foot cleft-lips said:

As a side not, @House Cambodia  I just want to express some respect. A close family friend of mine lived though the horrors of the 70s in Cambodia before emigrating. While I don't personally prescribe to Buddhism, I admire the work your fellow scholars and theologians have put in to reviving and preserving that tradition, historically, culturally and spiritually. 

Thanks. It's remarkable that post-Khmer Rouge with an entire nation traumatised, there was ONE psychiatrist in the country. Being left to recover on its own (with a further decade of US/UN-led sanctions keeping the nation in dire poverty) it's incredible how well it's done. No one I know went all "Ye Wenji" on humanity.

All academic understanding of Buddhism was, however, wiped out. I taught courses about the Buddha's teachings at university and my classes contained many monks - in their pagodas they learn to memorise chants and rituals, but had no idea what their founder actually taught. There's still a huge disconnect between popular Buddhism and what - in my mind - it's supposed to be beyond a general "Do good, get good".

[StarkTullies]

1. Faith of the Seven- Definitely my favorite religion in Westeros.  I have the most philosophical alignment with it, and it seems to generally be a religion of love and peace.  People criticize it as false in a world where the other religions appear to be "real", but magic in this world seems to be dark magic born out of murder and blood sacrifice... and the Faith doesn't do that.  Davos had his vision of the Mother, which of course could have been a trauma-induced hallucination, but it could have been real.  While the Starks are my favorite family and they don't worship the Seven (except sometimes Sansa), my favorite minor character in the story (Septon Meribald) seems to be entirely influenced in a positive way by his faith.  Baelor Blacktyde is one of the best Ironborn, changed by his conversion, and living a peaceful life in a violent culture and being murdered because of it.

People have said that the Faith is intolerant... and I'm not seeing that.  Are people confusing the "High Sparrow" of the wretched abomination who raided brothels and murdered prostitutes with the real "High Sparrow" who instead ministered to them?  I don't remember the septons screaming in protest when King Robert named a pagan northerner as his Hand.  No, they don't want Stannis as their king... but Stannis idiotically burned septs: he is the intolerant one.

The Faith's only "intolerance" I can think of is resisting genocidal invaders who rode fire demons and named themselves as godlike to justify their racial supremacy and polygamous incest, to which I say: good!  The Targaryens should have been resisted.  In the war between the Blacks and the Greens when the Targaryens brought endless suffering to the people over their greed for the throne, the Shepherd was the true hero of the war, and he spoke the truth: the Targaryens and their dragons brought their suffering upon them.  My only criticism of the Faith in that they added the heretical "doctrine of exceptionalism" into their religion, but that is because King Jaehaerys forced them under the threat of annihilation.

2.  Old Gods- The "old gods" aren't really gods, according to their own beliefs, just the ghosts of former mortals, living eternally through the trees.  They didn't create anything, and their value system can't be any more consistent than the mortals they once were during life.  Were the intestines dangled in the trees after the slavers rose against their masters a demand of the old gods... or just the angry retribution by people mistreated their entire lives?  I think the latter is more likely.  There is no "Book of the Old Gods" so no coherent belief system to judge them by, but since the best characters in the story follow this faith, the old gods can't be that bad.

3.  R'hllor- I agree with some of Melisandre's theological explanations, but in general I am not a fan of this religion.  Two of the three most prominent priests that we've seen (Melisandre and Moqorro) adhere to human sacrifice.  They are overly obsessed with prophecy, and the great "hero" of their religion (Azor Ahai) seems to be a villain.

4.  God of Death-  I don't agree with the claim that the Faceless Men are tolerant of all religions.  Anyone who claims that all other gods with completely different attributes are actually the same god is actually claiming that all other religions are wrong and their religion is right, but they are just more hypocritical about it.  Of course death is the one constant in all religions because no religion can deny death.  Ultimately this is an assassination cult, twisting religion to justify that they are all murderers.  And they are hypocritical murderers too, claiming that mortals don't get to choose who lives or dies... and then they choose who lives or dies based on how much their client pays them.

5.  Drowned God-  The Ironborn culture isn't terrible because their religion tells them to be; the Ironborn religion is terrible because they created the Drowned God to justify their murdering and raping and raiding lifestyles.  Aeron Damphair seems like he might have been a nice guy if not so "devout" in his religion, but Victarion seems like a more typical adherent to this faith: murdering people just because he enjoys doing it, and then saying it is for his god.

[House Cambodia]

17 hours ago, StarkTullies said:

my favorite minor character in the story (Septon Meribald) seems to be entirely influenced in a positive way by his faith. 

I referenced Septon Maribald myself above, but for me, he's an equivalent of St. Francis in a sea of holy corruption. The high sparrow has risen to become high Septon because of that corruption that caused a huge gap between the shallow faith of the nobility and the genuine faith of the smallfolk. As in the real medieval Catholic Church, the theology was unchallenged by adherents of the faith, but as an institution, it wallowed in wealth and privilege, with high septons being fat and indolent, refusing to condemn the ruling families' corruption and violence with the sole exception of Targaryan incest (note the blind eye turned towards Lannister incest).

When it comes to intolerance, they certainly were originally, wiping out the old religion wherever they found it. As the institution grew powerful and wealthy, it adopted the status quo and didn't care enough to rock any boats with criticism or intolerance, until the faith militant rose with their sharp intolerant attitudes - towards the corruption and hypocrisy of the rich and powerful. If you want to see where this ends up theologically, check out our world's Taliban.

[Aebram]

On 4/14/2024 at 5:27 AM, StarkTullies said:

4.  God of Death-  I don't agree with the claim that the Faceless Men are tolerant of all religions.  Anyone who claims that all other gods with completely different attributes are actually the same god is actually claiming that all other religions are wrong and their religion is right, but they are just more hypocritical about it.  Of course death is the one constant in all religions because no religion can deny death.  Ultimately this is an assassination cult, twisting religion to justify that they are all murderers.  And they are hypocritical murderers too, claiming that mortals don't get to choose who lives or dies... and then they choose who lives or dies based on how much their client pays them.

I enjoyed your post; it's very well thought out. But I think the situation with the Faceless Men is a bit more nuanced.

There are lots of religions that believe that all other religions are false. But most of them don't encourage believers to actually take action against other faiths. The Faceless Men make no effort to convert others to their faith; and they haven't tried to burn the statues of the Seven in the sept of Braavos. And given their "very specific set of skills," they could do a lot of damage to other religions if they wanted to. So in that sense, they are tolerant.

Oddly enough, it occurs to me that the Faceless Men and the religion of the many-faced god are actually two separate organizations. From what we know of their history, it seems that the religion and the guild of assassins both originated at about the same time, among the same people. But their assassinations are completely secular; they make their decisions about whom to kill without using any rituals or prophecies to ask their god"s opinion on the matter.

[House Cambodia]

8 minutes ago, Aebram said:

Oddly enough, it occurs to me that the Faceless Men and the religion of the many-faced god are actually two separate organizations.

Maybe, maybe not. I likened the situation to Japanese Zen and ninjas. But many religions have their non-violent and violent wings, like the Faith of the Seven and the Faith Militant -- in real-world analogies, monastic branches of the Catholic Church in conjunction with the 'monastic order' of the Knights Templar.

[KingoftheRiversandtheHills]

On 4/10/2024 at 4:00 PM, KingStoneheart said:

So off the top of my head, there’s 4/5 main religions that are prominent in the main storyline so what’s your ranking of these and why? For me, it’s below -

1. Death / Faceless Men Belief - so they just have such a nice, easy and understanding view on life and religion as a whole. This is that every god every created by different culture is one and the same, just telling a different story and that all comes down to the one thing that is certain in life and that’s death.

2. Old Gods - if I had to be religious in Westeros, I’d 100% believe in the Old Gods. The modern day Old Gods just seem so accepting, like yeah you can believe other gods and they may be real but I believe this and that’s okay

3. Drowned God - the reason it’s not higher is because of the whole sacrificing and the Old Way of doing things which is just very backwards and barbaric. Although the reason it’s fifth is because rereading Victarion’s chapter in ADWD this week made me understand that he also has a similar view to the Old Gods in that yeah your god can be real, but on the Iron Islands and in the surrounding seas, our god rules.

4. Faith of the Seven - I just really don’t like the Faith or their views, they seem very similar to die hard Christianity in that they are against everyone else and that only their 7 exist and that sinners must be punished, all that stuff. So yeah I really hate them

5. R’holler - for very similar reasons to the Faith but they’re just that bit more crazy and unforgiving / accepting of other religions.

I think you're looking at this with a total outside view. 

1. If you lived in a world where some people worshiped DEATH, the embodiment of what everyone in a good mental state doesn't want to be, and in addition accepted coin to be kill people you would be really scared of them and think they are psychos.

2 and 4. The old gods seem to be a more cultural thing than an actual religion to the people of the north and the Faith of the Seven is the catholic church done wrong. For my reasons you could look at my post "Expanding Westeros."

5. I used to think this too, however House Cambodia made a really good point (on another post) that we don't know much about the modern red faith outside of Melisandre, who could be an extremist with views warped by Asshai.

[Lissasalayaya]

I wonder how long the stranger has been on tour. It would be cool if he's in one of the history books. 

[House Cambodia]

On 4/12/2024 at 2:55 PM, House Cambodia said:

R'hllor, The Lord of Light, seems based on Manichaeism, a religion that taught Good and Evil and equal and opposite forces conflicting with each other for people's souls and the fate of the cosmos. Its "You're either with us or against us" message of intolerance is ugly; the twist is it might turn out that the Lord of Light is the force to defeat The Great Other! To be more specific, I mean characters - especially Daenerys - might be motivated by such a belief.

I'd like to add an important detail to the R'hllor religion in Essos. In another very lively thread, there's been debate about slavery. It's worth noting that as an Essosi religion, it fully accepts slavery. 'Melony, Lot 7' was purchased as a child slave to serve the religion. They buy temple prostitutes and soldiers. It's interesting that they know Daenerys has an agenda to end slavery, an institution they depend on as much as the cities, yet they decide to co-opt her.

I think Dany is going to wise up to this and be faced with this question - 'Do I accept their much-needed support for conquering and holding Westeros, or do I stand up to their pro-slavery stance?' Given the religion is excessively intolerant and sees everything is such black-and-white terms, only one side can compromise.

Stannis didn't believe in the religion at first (and maybe never has) but saw the personal benefits of going along with Melissandra's agenda. Will Dany do similar? I don't think she will, but it will be a key issue in the next book.

Ultimately, I think the religion is deluded and dangerous. Tyrion worked that out and led fAegon away from hooking up with them. Dany will be much more involved until she sees through it. I'm not so sure unDead Jon will wise up to Melissandra.

[Craving Peaches]

Faith of the Seven for inside cities/when around other people, Old Gods for when alone in nature. Faith of the Seven and the Old Gods seem to be the only major religions to not practice human sacrifice anymore AND be against slavery (though that might be a Weserosi custom rather than linked to religion). R'hlorr and the Drowned God both support this (thralls, temple slaves etc.), and the Many-Faced God endorses human sacrifice. So if I had to rank them:

1. FotS/Old Gods

2. Faceless God (because it is against slavery at least)

3. Drowned God

4. R'hlorr (burning is more painful than drowning)

For all the people saying the FotS are intolerant, is there anything specifically that marks them out as such, or at least more intolerant than other religions? I don't think any FotS members in the series have called for non-believers to be burned (unlike R'hlorr followers), nor are they burning items/places of worship (unlike R'hlorr followers). R'hlorr followers clearly seem like the most intolerant religion in my view, closely followed by Drowned God followers.