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[Pre-ADwD Spoilers] Jon 3 but actually Jon 1

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Odie,

[quote name='Odie' post='1301920' date='Apr 5 2008, 08.38']Hey all - I found out last night that George is going to read this chapter again this afternoon at OddCon. I'm going to ask him about the whole Did Jon know that Tywin was dead question, if I get the chance.... though isn't the conversation we see between Sam and Jon in aFFC the one about the "paper shield" being sent to Tywin? Or was there another Jon and Sam conversation that I'm forgetting? Which conversation do we see in this chapter? George said something in another panel last night about "the dialog being exactly the same" (which is how I know this is the chapter he intends to read, on top of the fact that he posted on his Not-A-Blog that he was basically home for one night and then headed up here to Madison - not a lot of prep time there to get a new chapter together for reading)

Sorry, I'm being unusally tired and dense this morning. And incomprehensible.[/quote]

That's wonderful. You're in for treat this is a great chapter. In addition to the question about tywin's death could you try to write down which fort Jon gave to Giant? Thanks.

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[i]'Take him to the wall,' Jon says, 'and hang him.'[/i]

Worst plot development ever :thumbsdown:

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[quote name='Winter Roses' post='1301571' date='Apr 4 2008, 21.57']In all seriousness though, I wonder if it's possible for wights to climb the Wall, even with the assistance of a rope. They seem.... clumsy. ::shudder::[/quote]

I always assumed the Others and wights could not pass the Wall, since it was built to keep them away; it is full of spells and is a magical boundary. This is why I assumed that the Horn that can bring down the Wall is so dangerous. While it will let the Wildlings in, it also breaks the magical boundary that keeps out the Others/wights. Really that means it is in the Others best interest to freak out the Wildlings enough that they break the Wall to get away. BTW, is that old broken horn that Jon found the horn in question? Edited by LugaJetBoyGirl

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[quote name='LugaJetBoyGirl' post='1302098' date='Apr 5 2008, 13.43']I always assumed the Others and wights could not pass the Wall, since it was built to keep them away; it is full of spells and is a magical boundary. This is why I assumed that the Horn that can bring down the Wall is so dangerous. While it will let the Wildlings in, it also breaks the magical boundary that keeps out the Others/wights. Really that means it is in the Others best interest to freak out the Wildlings enough that they break the Wall to get away. BTW, is that old broken horn that Jon found the horn in question?[/quote]

Even without the horn, there are hints that the Wall is crumbling. The magic keeping the Wall together is weakening. In ASOS, Jon witnesses a huge chunk of wall fall apart which resulted in a team of wildling climbers get killed. In the last sentence of the last Brans chapter, Bran notices a drop of water hit his face like "a tear." This means something... Edited by Crimsonking

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[quote name='cybroleach' post='1300176' date='Apr 3 2008, 21.32']Thorne I really don't think is the evil guy Jon makes him out to be he's an ass and hangs out with scum but I don't see him as the type to really betray people. Even when he saw Janos getting taken he seems to be the only one with thoughts of standing by Janos, then he cowers because he must have reasoned Jon is a better sword or that no one else was standing with him against Jon's 7. I expect him to continue to 'tow the line' calling Jon boy and muttering how he shouldnt be LC but doing as Jon tells him.[/quote]


I agree with you that Thorne is not really an evil guy. He is bitter and bad tempered man and the way he ended on the Wall definitely added to it. You remember that Thorne was loyal and fought valiantly but had a misfortune to be on the wrong side.
Yet while on the Wall he did nothing ignoble there. True he mocked a lot of people or tried too and he hated many for no good reason but otherwise he again provided a good service. He tried his best on his trip to KL and he knows very well what dangers the Watch faces. He dislikes Jon a lot and do not think him hit to the task and he may even question the election but unless there are declared void he would follow Jon’s orders.
I disagree however about the reason he cowers when Jon ordered to arrest Slynt. Slynt had a lot of suppoters around and Jon came only with 7 men. So in the case the fight would start there would be difficult to predict its outcome and Thorne is definitely not a coward. Yet Stynt refusal to follow Jon’s order clearly was a crime and could have passed only if Jon was unable to prove his authority. By the look on Jon’s face Thorne realized that Jon mean to go to the end and this meant that Slynt lost his bet. Actually a few more demonstrations of Jon’s abilities and Thorne may become his loyal follower.

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From remarks Odie made elsewhere, George seems to have already changed some sort of detail related to Tywin's death and the events in this chapter. I'm guessing that he dropped Slynt's reference to Tywin, but that's just a guess. :)

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[quote name='Ran' post='1302659' date='Apr 6 2008, 12.46']From remarks Odie made elsewhere, George seems to have already changed some sort of detail related to Tywin's death and the events in this chapter. I'm guessing that he dropped Slynt's reference to Tywin, but that's just a guess. :)[/quote]


This would clear it. I suspect it was continuity error analogical to Dorne chapter in AFFC. That one was removed in paperback edition, IIRC.

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Pretty much. It was changed from "If Lord Tywin was still alive" to "When Lord Tywin hears of this..." or something to that effect.

I did startle George a bit during the signing when I told him "I noticed you changed what Slynt said right before he was hanged..." That was fun :) "How do you know what I changed?!?" he asked incrediously, after a slight, bewildered pause. I can't remember what I said, but Davos had the right responce. "Little birds" ;)

The Giant was sent to Icemark. Edited by Odie

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[quote]... but Davos had the right responce. "Little birds"[/quote]

LOL! Good one. :)

Icemark's been mentioned a couple of times before. In ACoK it's one of the castles suggested to be manned again when Qhorin and Mormont are discussing strategy at the Fist of the First Men. Jon was present for that discussion, it may be why he brings it up....

And checking up on that again, I note that Mormont suggests Greyguard first, and Halfhand notes that it's mostly collapsed and that Ice Mark, Deep Lake, or Stonedoor would serve better. I can't help but note that Greyguard is the castle Slynt is offered to command. Obviously, its defensive capabilities don't really matter that much -- they're there simply to dissuade small groups of wildlings, and serve as a waypost for patrols -- but Jon was clearly making sure that Slynt didn't receive anything he could really defend from the south side (i.e., from Jon if he tried to stir a mutiny). They're not terribly defensible as it is, but a collapsed castle must be even worse.

I forget, is it made clear that Jon plans to man most of the castles under a similar fashion, and Giant and Slynt were merely the first two he was going to send out this way? Edited by Ran

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Just a few thoughts after reading this spoiler.

On the rope.

In the middle ages hanging was the method for executing commoners whereas nobles were given the privilege of being beheaded. GRRM confirmed this is equally true in Westeros during the chapter in ASoS where ironically Slynt is gloating about the possiblity of hanging Jon.

Now if we take this as the new Lord Commander's standard modus operadi for dealing with extreme cases of insubordination, it sends a powerful message to anybody else considering so flagrantly disobeying him, particularly noblemen. On the Wall it doesn't matter whether you have Lord or Ser before your name or who your father is, if you repeatively refuse the LC's orders he'll string you up like a common criminal all the same.

On the 19 forts.

In some of the previous preview Jon chapters Stannis was quite insistant about manning and repairing the empty forts along the Wall. It appears that Stannis has finally agreed to support Jon's suggestion that he place some of his men under Night's Watch command. And what he seems to have offered is rather generous and apparently in good faith - effectively he's putting up a third of the manpower of each fort which is considerable without majorly threatening the Night's Watch command of the position.

As for Jon's ordering of Slynt to a command, I think it was apparent Jon wanted to deal with Slynt one way or another early on. However he called in 'Giant' (a man he had had campaigned with recently) first to make it a standard order. Why should Janos Slynt refuse when another man already obeyed without question? If you noticed Slynt got 3 chances to comply with the order.

I wouldn't be at all suprised if we see a later Jon chapter which opens with Jon giving the Greygate command (with 20 Watchmen and 10 Kingsmen) to Ser Aliser Thorne who will very humbly accept!

'Lord' Janos Slynt in retrospect

Looking back on him, Janos Slynt was yet another of GRRM's twisting of the generic heroic fiction stereotypes. The lowborn guardsman who raises up the ranks in a world where the nobleborn rule and ends up winning a title for himself. Of course he seems to do it all by betrayal and patronage. Ultimately Slynt is brought down by his own hubris, he fails to realise that his patrons have long since washed their hands of him. The other big character flaw of Janos Slynt is the massive sense of entitlement that he gains the moment he gets the 'Lord' in front of his name. Once you add that four letter word, the ego of this butcher's son from King's Landing is only really rivalled by people with surnames such as Lannister and Targaryen!

Such is Slynt's arrogance that he arrives on the Wall intent on being the next Lord Commander. He is ultimately stopped when the 'old guard' of the NW officers close ranks around a compromise candidate (Jon) because stopping Slynt (an outsider who's yet to really serve on the Wall let alone lead it)is more important than their own rivalries. Of course someone like Slynt can't take that and thats why he ends dangling off the Wall by his neck.

Ironically of course Janos Slynt's death shows he was really neither noble in status or action! Edited by Tom O'Sevens

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[quote name='Crimsonking' post='1302425' date='Apr 6 2008, 04.34']Even without the horn, there are hints that the Wall is crumbling. The magic keeping the Wall together is weakening. In ASOS, Jon witnesses a huge chunk of wall fall apart which resulted in a team of wildling climbers get killed. In the last sentence of the last Brans chapter, Bran notices a drop of water hit his face like "a tear." This means something...[/quote]

That means you didn't read carefully.Bran passed through weirwood gate,not through Wall(literally).And face in weirwood dropped something that seemed like a tear to him.

As for other thing,yes,part of wall colapsed,but it was warm day,ice melted and climbers vere ''disturbing'' entire construction by nailing those things in Wall.And I didn't catch anywhere that magic is weaking,it's actually getting stronger,thanks to dragons.So if you could provide a quote I'd appreciate :) Edited by vlada

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[quote name='Tom O'Sevens' post='1303137' date='Apr 6 2008, 15.54']'Lord' Janos Slynt in retrospect

Looking back on him, Janos Slynt was yet another of GRRM's twisting of the generic heroic fiction stereotypes. The lowborn guardsman who raises up the ranks in a world where the nobleborn rule and ends up winning a title for himself. Of course he seems to do it all by betrayal and patronage. Ultimately Slynt is brought down by his own hubris, he fails to realise that his patrons have long since washed their hands of him. The other big character flaw of Janos Slynt is the massive sense of entitlement that he gains the moment he gets the 'Lord' in front of his name. Once you add that four letter word, the ego of this butcher's son from King's Landing is only really rivalled by people with surnames such as Lannister and Targaryen![/quote]

Thus Davos is a foil for Slynt. And according to AFFC, Davos may meet his end in Dance as well. I wonder if there will be a strong contrast between his death (or fake death, or whatever) and that of Janos.

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[quote name='vlada' post='1303363' date='Apr 6 2008, 17.45']That means you didn't read carefully.Bran passed through weirwood gate,not through Wall(literally).And face in weirwood dropped something that seemed like a tear to him.

As for other thing,yes,part of wall colapsed,but it was warm day,ice melted and climbers vere ''disturbing'' entire construction by nailing those things in Wall.And I didn't catch anywhere that magic is weaking,it's actually getting stronger,thanks to dragons.So if you could provide a quote I'd appreciate :)[/quote]

Nah, I don't having anything to quote. It's just speculation, really.... :)

Yes, magic is becoming stronger presence in the world of Westeros. A slab of ice falling off the Wall (plus a couple dozen wildlings) due to weakening magic on the Wall...it does appear to contradict to magic entering the world. So this point I made probably means nothing.

Also, I take back the point abount Bran and the "tear." Bran and Co. were several hundred feet or more underground.....below the Nightfort.....when they came into contact with the weirwood door (i.e. face). So, they were underneath the Wall.

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[quote name='LugaJetBoyGirl' post='1303413' date='Apr 7 2008, 00.11']Thus Davos is a foil for Slynt. And according to AFFC, Davos may meet his end in Dance as well. I wonder if there will be a strong contrast between his death (or fake death, or whatever) and that of Janos.[/quote]

Or for that matter if we consider AFfC as the parallel volume that it is, we can also say Bronn is another foil to Slynt. Of course unlike Janos Slynt Bronn never has any illusions about the titles, lands and patrons he gains - despite being now a lord he's still at heart a sword to sell to the highest bidder and however much he may like a patron he never has any problems moving on if circumstances change. Unlike Slynt who's constantly going on about Tywin Lannister (ironically wasn't it Joffery who gave him the Lordship of Harrenhal?) Bronn remains his own man. Edited by Tom O'Sevens

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If wights cannot pass through the Wall because of the magic, then how were the corpses of Othor and Jafer Flowers able to be carried through in AGoT? Is it because it was daylight and the wights weren't "alive" then? After all, Coldhands couldn't pass through the Black Gate in ASoS because of the magic; I'm sure he wouldn't be able to pass through the gate at Castle Black either. So whether wights can only pass through the Wall during daylight when they're not animated, or whether they can always pass because they're former humans, it *is* possible for them to pass. And Janos' corpse would most likely be hanging on the south side of the Wall, so it would already be past the magic, wouldn't it? Hmm.. I wonder if the magic stop things from passing/climbing on either side, does anyone know if GRRM has addressed this somewhere? @[email protected] Oh well, I'm sure Jon will have the corpse burned quickly anyway... haha, I'm still happy just thinking of -Janos Slynt- as a corpse. :-) Edited by Winter Roses

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Winter Roses,

[quote]Is it because it was daylight and the wights weren't "alive" then?[/quote]

Precisely. The plan was clearly to have the unwitting Night's Watch carry the corpses that last crucial distance to the other side of the Wall, so that they could awaken on that side.

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Wights and others are two different things though. We don't know for sure if Others can cross the Wall, though it seems likely the magic holds them back.

It raises the question though - why was one of the aforementioned wights trying to open the gate at Castle Black?

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Slynt's death means that conceivably the truth of Ned's execution has been lost. Joffrey is dead after all, and Ilyn Payne can neither read, write, nor speak. Neither Varys nor Cersei appear to know in ACOK, in conversation with Tyrion and I believe them.

Alternatively, starting from the premise that GRRM must reveal the truth of Ned's death, Littlefinger must be involved, since he is the only major player who has not disclosed his role in the death. I think it strikingly plausible that he did engineer it, but I find it very difficult to imagine the circumstances in which he might reveal this information.

Incidentally those who think Jon is becoming a total bad ass as Lord Commander, should consider what Tywin would have done. Tywin would have arrested Janos publicly, had the truth tortured from him in some dungeon, and then had him publicly hanged. Littlefinger would have promised Slynt a pardon, and then hanged him after having the truth. Jon isn't in their league, yet.

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