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Ran

[Pre-ADwD Spoilers] "New" POV 1 - Spoilers for ADwD

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[quote name='grinachu' post='1337055' date='May 1 2008, 06.21']I was skimming through ACOK when I came across this curious passage which I had hitertho overlooked.

Any idea on what the book is? It might be something to do with geneaologies and the parentage of Joffrey Baratheon, since Roose later hints to Jaime that he knows the truth, but it might be something else entirely. Either way I doubt the passage is there for no reason whatsoever, and that Roose burns the book is particularly significant since it implies that there is information there that he does not wish to share. At this point he has already decided to sabotage the Stark war effort, by sending Tallheart and Glover to Duskendale. So, any guesses?[/quote]

He was just burning all the books in Harrenhal as general measure of making Harhenhal less of an asset to whomever would assume it when he decamped.

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[quote name='Jak o the Shadows' post='1337208' date='May 1 2008, 14.55']Wow. Nice pick. I never noticed that. Yeah why burn a book? Maybe it was from the Frey's with details on the red wedding. Maybe they responded to Roose in a book rather than by raven. Damn now I'm going to be thinking of this all day.[/quote]


The book sounds quite old though...and why would they respond by "book" when there were a host of Freys with Bolton at Harrenhal?

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[quote name='Daena the Defiant' post='1337213' date='May 1 2008, 14.57']He was just burning all the books in Harrenhal as general measure of making Harhenhal less of an asset to whomever would assume it when he decamped.[/quote]

really? Hmm. I don't think Vargo Hoat had a great love of reading myself, but in any event there seems to be no evidence he was burning any other books = just this one. It's possible there was something in this book that would make it valuable though...

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GRRM's been asked about this in the past. As I recall, his answer was that it was just a book, and the scene was there to show the sort of man Bolton was. If something wasn't useful to him, he'd be willing to destroy it just to deny it to anyone else. Even if it was old, or rare, or valuable. Edited by Ran

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- It was a random useless (plotwise) book
- It was a book about lineages, indeed; maybe the book Ned - or was it Jon Arryn, or both? - read about weddings between Lannisters and Baratheons - important plotwise as it's directly related to the current Westerosi warfare
- It was a book about ancient lore, the threat looming beyond the Wall, PTWP, Others, that kind of things / alternatively, a book about dragons - something important plotwise, but that would involve Boltons way beyond the mere civil war in Westeros


Concerning Theon: Ramsay may just want to have him at his side, instead of leaving him behind. Asha's still around, there may still be some Stark followers, he might know about Stannis. All in all, even if an assault on Dreadfort wouldn't work, he might think it's too risky to leave such a precious hostage there.
He may also wants to use him during the reconquista over the Ironborn.

Last but not least, does Ramsay has any reason to doubt Arya's true identity? Roose probably has suspicions, but would he share them with Ramsay?
Could it be that Roose had no intention of mentioning to Ramsay that he was to marry a fake Arya? Could Theon notice that she isn't Arya and mention it to Ramsay - without this being the reason Ramsay took Theon with him? And if Ramsay was totally unaware of this, could he be upset and feel cheated and betrayed by his dad, could this make him off Roose - not because he planned it all along but was suddenly pissed off?
(not that Roose being killed is a given, mind you, I consider this as wild speculation)

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[quote name='Ran' post='1337264' date='May 1 2008, 15.28']GRRM's been asked about this in the past. As I recall, his answer was that it was just a book, and the scene was there to show the sort of man Bolton was. If something wasn't useful to him, he'd be willing to destroy it just to deny it to anyone else. Even if it was old, or rare, or valuable.[/quote]

That's very helpful, but also a little disappointing. Thanks for clearing it up Ran. I thought it was a fiendishly subtle plot point, but sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

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Just found time to sit down and read this. Now I feel like retching.

No-one does rat-eating better than GRRM :ack: Edited by Werthead

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Where does anyone get the idea that Ramsay "needs" Theon to verify anything? At present, swords are doing all the 'verifying" in the north. It seems far more likely that Ramsay is clever enough to realize that Theon may make a good bargaining chip and/or source of information vis-a-vis the ironborn.

However, the beauty of the situation (thanks again GRRM) is that Theon will be able to recognize the 'fake" Arya for what she is, and so unless Theon is destined to die at the Dreadfort, this knowledge could well propel the plot significantly.

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After reading this chapter, I thought back to when Roose had Jamie as his prisoner. Jamie is one lucky SOB. Jamie got handled with kid gloves. Roose was not being polite by ignoring jamie's hand at dinner he was just used to seeing mutulated body parts.

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Well, Roose was making an alliance with Jaime's father, and torturing the son of Tywin Lannister is probably not a good way to curry favor. Roose, being intelligent, knows this. Ramsay probably has no intention of currying favor with the Ironborn. But yeah, Jaime got lucky that Roose was planning betrayal. Edited by Atreides

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Anyone else think that Ramsay is using Theon to make sure that the Arya he was promised is really her, which we know its not? And Theon will prolly recognize her as maybe Jeyne Pool or someone else from Winterfell...think the Boltons would even care?

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With all these theories, I'm starting to wonder if Ramsay just Theon along for some or all of these reasons-simply put, he'd have more use for Theon and his potential knowledge and connections with him, as opposed to if he was sitting in a cell in the Dreadfort eating rats.

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All this talk about biting your flayed fingers off... poor Lady Hornwood, I guess she wasn't just hungry :wideeyed:. Edited by brabbelbla

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IMHO, Theon fills several roles all at once:
[list]
[*]A trophy to show other northmen that the Boltons are serious about reclaiming the north from the ironborn
[*]A wedding gift for his new wife. With the Bolton/Lannister alliance getting along quite well, I'd think Bolton would have to know that Arya isn't for real, and he'd tell Ramsay. Maybe Theon will make a nice execution to go with the wedding cake, to make up for her dead brothers. Of course, this is just a sham, since Ramsay knows that Bran and Rickon weren't killed by Theon, and should know this really isn't Arya anyways. Just a nice juicy PR event to make it easier for northern bannermen to accept Bolton leadership.
[*]A fun squeaky toy for Ramsay.
[/list]

What I think he [b]won't [/b]be is:
[list]
[*]A Hostage. Unless Ramsay is unaware of Ironborn sensibilities and tries to use Theon as a lever. However, once Stannis and the Boltons/Freys are done with the Ironborn, they won't have much of a presence there anyways, and Theon will have limited usefulness.
[*]A Man of the Night's Watch: he's way to messed up to survive there, and his rep wouldn't make him too popular. Interestingly enough however, if he meets up with 3-Finger Hobb, they'll have a full set of fingers between them.
[*]A man on the run: A more pathetic escapee you couldn't hope to meet.
[*]An assassin: Ramsay can't be thinking of using Theon to kill his father Roose. He doesn't even have enough fingers to hold a dagger.
[/list]

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[quote name='hackhamster' post='1347705' date='May 8 2008, 14.02']...
[*]An assassin: Ramsay can't be thinking of using Theon to kill his father Roose. He doesn't even have enough fingers to hold a dagger.
[/list]
...[/quote]
I don't really think Ramsay is planning on using Theon as an assassin either and you're right that he may not be able to even hold a dagger anymore. But, I wonder if he could still draw a bow if he gets a bit healthier and is given the chance? We know he was quite deadly with one at one time. Maybe he could demonstrate his archery skill on Ramsey? I can only hope ;)

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[quote name='Prince of the North' post='1347838' date='May 8 2008, 21.11']I don't really think Ramsay is planning on using Theon as an assassin either and you're right that he may not be able to even hold a dagger anymore. But, I wonder if he could still draw a bow if he gets a bit healthier and is given the chance? We know he was quite deadly with one at one time. Maybe he could demonstrate his archery skill on Ramsey? I can only hope ;)[/quote]

It depends on the fingers. There's an old Indian story about a young, formidable, low-caste archer who was asked to sacrifice his thumb as a gift-offering to his teacher, because the teacher did not wish his low-caste pupil to surpass the prince he was training. Without the thumb the low-caste archer couldn't wield a a bow.

I don't see Theon escaping and assassinating Ramsay on his way out though. I don't see him having the courage, and monsters don't die so easily in GRRM's world. Ramsay will be attacked at Deepwood Motte and will most likely flee before Stannis Baratheon, leaving Theon behind.

I second your post, hackhamster which I really liked.

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[quote name='hackhamster' post='1347705' date='May 8 2008, 15.02']IMHO, Theon fills several roles all at once:
[list]
[*]A trophy to show other northmen that the Boltons are serious about reclaiming the north from the ironborn
[*]A wedding gift for his new wife. With the Bolton/Lannister alliance getting along quite well, I'd think Bolton would have to know that Arya isn't for real, and he'd tell Ramsay. Maybe Theon will make a nice execution to go with the wedding cake, to make up for her dead brothers. Of course, this is just a sham, since Ramsay knows that Bran and Rickon weren't killed by Theon, and should know this really isn't Arya anyways. Just a nice juicy PR event to make it easier for northern bannermen to accept Bolton leadership.
[*]A fun squeaky toy for Ramsay.
[/list][/quote]
That's a pretty nice first post, I must say, and it makes a lot of sense to me (as Ramsay's plan). Ramsay gets to have his perverted style of fun, by killing Theon brutally in front of "Arya". It proves his loyalty to the North's best interests, it will scare the crap out of "Arya" and make her fear Ramsay that much more (which Ramsay seems to prefer), and it removes one of the few people who can definitively say that Bran and Rickon are alive and that "Arya" is a fake from the picture.

So I can certainly see that as Ramsay's plan for Theon. But I also think that the actual events in DwD are NOT going to go according to that plan.

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I saw a very interesting quote from the excerpt on-line today:

"Reek has been with me since I was a boy. My lord father gave him to me, as a token of his love."

So, given that Reek used to be a necrophile and stuff, does this mean that Roose purposefully shaped Ramsey into a monster? If so, then Ramsey's chances of bumping off dear old dad, surviving for much longer and/or of inheriting are minimal. It appears that he was a tool created for specific task and that Roose ought to be very much aware of all of his flaws and limitations.

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[quote name='Maia' post='1349161' date='May 9 2008, 21.57']I saw a very interesting quote from the excerpt on-line today:

"Reek has been with me since I was a boy. My lord father gave him to me, as a token of his love."

So, given that Reek used to be a necrophile and stuff, does this mean that Roose purposefully shaped Ramsey into a monster? If so, then Ramsey's chances of bumping off dear old dad, surviving for much longer and/or of inheriting are minimal. It appears that he was a tool created for specific task and that Roose ought to be very much aware of all of his flaws and limitations.[/quote]

That would make the Boltons even scarier and creepier than they already are.

I cannot [i]wait [/i]to read those chapters.

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