Hobb I: The Fool is [CENSOREDSPOILER]

[Samalander]

[quote name='Un-Yearded Pita' post='1385602' date='Jun 5 2008, 21.52']And Samalander, the point of him not wondering is the fact that he knows. For a certainty.[/quote]
Which is kinda weird. He's not stupid, and sometimes he has brilliant flashes of inspiration (like the scene where Wil comes to visit him in the dungeon and he just knows where he's been).
But on this one thing, with so many question marks, and the Fool never giving him a straight answer on the matter, he is absolutely sure. Yeah, right.

[Samalander]

[quote name='Calibandar' post='1385734' date='Jun 5 2008, 23.15']Evidence is almost 100% conclusive that The Fool is really a male, if an androgynous looking one.[/quote]
What evidence is that? Please cite.
I think it's possible in this matter (Fool's sexuality) Hobb climed a very tall tree, from book 1 through book 9, and she had no idea how to resolve the issue and climb down off the tree, so she just skirted the issue altogether.

[Gigei]

I have read of the gender switching theory, like when he has his fever/sickness and his skin darkens, he switches male-female or vice versa. I don't but into that theory but it is certainly possible.

I notice that the black man is male while the fake White Prophet is female so probably the other prophets before did not have nay confusing gender issues. The Fool is just freakish that way.

[Calibandar]

The Black Man, I don't quite recall what his story was anymore, it's been too long and with Hobb you never get into the details of her world like you do with say Tolkien, Martin or Bakker. I seem to recall that he had lived far past his momentum, that he was very old and that his time as prophet to a catalyst had long since past, and that he had failed, but had not yet died. The Fool was the true prophet of "our" time. I do remember finding that whole segment with the Black Man, and the little house/cave he had created inside of a rock to be totally charming and one of the best chapters in the trilogy. One could imagine someone living where he did, to live out one's final years.

Samalander

I think we read 6 books from the Fitz POV and not once was I as a reader aware of the fact that Fitz doubted the Fool's gender. You might imagine my surprise when I came to the Robin Hobb discussion forum and see an array of threads dedicated to the Fool's romantic love for Fitz and the claims that the Fool was female. I always thought he was male, and the Amber personage it adapted in Liveship was a facade. Or maybe, it was Hobb herself simply not having decided on what it would be ( which admittedly is quite likely).

However The Tawny Man trilogy did erase any doubts in the end. Doesn't Fitz care deeply and extensively for a dying Fool at the end, even healing him from the inside with his power? I thought he did, and surely then he might have noticed any "surprises" concerning his gender?

I just never get that sense that The Fool as a character is supposed to be female, the only thing that even brings that up to me is other people desperatly crying out that would surely be the case, and I thought that case was laid to rest at the end of the last book.

[Samalander]

[quote name='Calibandar' post='1386389' date='Jun 6 2008, 12.43']I just never get that sense that The Fool as a character is supposed to be female, the only thing that even brings that up to me is other people desperatly crying out that would surely be the case, and I thought that case was laid to rest at the end of the last book.[/quote]
The thing is, the case was never put to rest (hence the fan outcry and this thread).
One might assume, that, because of Fitz's "no comment" on this matter that the Fool is strickly male.
This, however, does not track with many facts :
1) If he is male, then his attraction for Fitz would indicate he's a homosexual (so far plausible).
2) Why would he go to great lengths to hide all his body for so long, if he's just a dude (question ?)
3) How could he imporsenate a woman so well (great acting skill possible, but a strech)
4) He was named "Beloved" at birth. Decidedly a girlish name (could be boy's name, super strech)
5) Why is the author so vague about the whole thing at the end? (letting us draw own conclusions)
There's much more, but can't think of all of it at the moment

P.S
Ned never thinks about Jon's mother. Then she must be Wylla. Robert said it was and Ned didn't think differently. QED. It is obvious. Ned agrees Rhaegar raped his sister. Didn't think anything contrary (quote "Ned had nothing to say to that" or somesuch) in the Crypts. So you see the whole "no comment" thing by the POV character really don't mean squat. Of course, GRRM does it much much better than Hobb. That's why he's king.

[Guy Kilmore]

I always took the line those lines around the segement of "I would do anything for you" as an invitation to sexual relations, but as something more. Fitz wasn't looking for a lover, but a companion, that is why I think the Fool became "male", because that is what Fitz wanted. That was what he needed, for whatever reason. It Fitz wanted to get "Freakie Deekie" than I am sure we would have scene the Fool as female, because that is what Fitz really wanted.

I think the Fools "fluid" gender was really a reflection of Fitz's indeciveness throughout the entire series and only when he becomes whole at the end does he truly understand himself better.

[Shryke]

Fitz NEVER EVER, not once, thinks of the Fool as anything but a man.

And if you wanna use that "Healing him from the inside" thing as evidence, then it pretty much proves he's a man because if he wasn't, Fitz would have been all "HOLY SHIT!!!"

[awesome possum]

Yeah, but Fitz is pretty damned dense and stubborn about a lot of things. He sees the Fool as a male, so he won't ever see the Fool as anything but. The Fool even tells Fitz that since he's made up his mind, the Fool wouldn't bother to try changing it.

Fitz loves the Fool as a childhood companion and best friend, but the Fool loves Fitz as a soulmate.

[Shryke]

What evidence is there that the Fool is a women beyond:

1) Some Minstrel said so once
2) He doesn't like undressing in front of Fitz

[RedEyedGhost]

[quote name='Samalander' post='1386494' date='Jun 6 2008, 07.11']2) Why would he go to great lengths to hide all his body for so long, if he's just a dude (question ?)[/quote]


[quote name='Shryke' post='1386729' date='Jun 6 2008, 10.07']2) He doesn't like undressing in front of Fitz[/quote]

:idea:

I'm just going o put this out there: I think the Fool has more tattoos – Fitz over his right nipple, Nighteyes over the left. He got really wasted one night and regrets getting them, [i]and that's[/i] the real reason he's embarrassed about his chest.







And no I really don't believe that. Like awesome possum said
[quote]Fitz loves the Fool as a childhood companion and best friend, but the Fool loves Fitz as a soulmate.[/quote]

If Fitz had wanted more, then we would have learned the true gender of Beloved, but all Fitz wanted was Molly.

[Slick Mongoose]

In my opinion, the fool is male. Fitz saw the fool naked several times in the final book, there's no way he wouldn't comment on the fool's gender if it was anything other than male.


[quote]1) If he is male, then his attraction for Fitz would indicate he's a homosexual (so far plausible).
2) Why would he go to great lengths to hide all his body for so long, if he's just a dude (question ?)
3) How could he imporsenate a woman so well (great acting skill possible, but a strech)
4) He was named "Beloved" at birth. Decidedly a girlish name (could be boy's name, super strech)
5) Why is the author so vague about the whole thing at the end? (letting us draw own conclusions)[/quote]

1. No, the fool is not homosexual. He places no limits on his love. There is a difference. For him, gender doesn't enter into it.
2. He goes to great lengths to hide his body, his room, his real nature and pretty much anything that he considers private. For him, privacy is a big deal.
3. He's a brilliant actor. This is shown time and time again.
4. Beloved is only a girls name by modern real-world standards. He was born into and brought up in a completely different culture.
5. It's more fun that way. :)

[Shryke]

I didn't think she was vague at all. It seemed perfectly clear to me that the Fool was a man.

[Calibandar]

Samalander

The arguments that you put forth that supposedly throw doubt on the matter of gender are not very strong if you ask me.

[quote]1) If he is male, then his attraction for Fitz would indicate he's a homosexual (so far plausible).[/quote]

He could be gay, it could be different than that, in the sense of a boundless love this Prophet has for his catalyst. It's clear that when Fitz ends up with Molly, the poem from the Fool is heartbreaking. But homosexual or not, this has no bearing on it's actual gender. It's love for Fitz is not proof of it's femininity.

[quote]2) Why would he go to great lengths to hide all his body for so long, if he's just a dude (question ?)[/quote]

He's shy? As far as I know the Fool was shy like that towards anyone.

[shortstark]

Reading this thread has reminded me of how great these books are...

I am in (or was) the Fool is male camp, but the idea that the fool changes gender while he undergoes other physical changes resonates, while

there is no evidence in the books to support this, it is pretty neat, and i bet if Hobb reads this she is wishing that she had thought of it first :P .

On endings.... i have said it before on this board, and i will repeat it here, the ending of the Farseer trilogy to me is the most perfect, best

ending of ANY scifi/ fantasy book i have read... and while i enjoyed Tawny Man, i would have been happy if she had left it there.....

[Benjen Stark]

[quote name='AverageGuy' post='1385971' date='Jun 5 2008, 19.33']I hated the last book of Liveship. All I remember is Malta rafting down a river or in the emperor's instead of actually doing anything, and then the dragon comes and saves the day. But Kennet and Winslow were cool (I have no idea if I got those names right), and they redeem the series.

Preferred the Assassin and Tawny Man trilogies. Never made it past the first book of the newest one. I'd planned to, I even went to the bookstore when the second book came out, but I ended up staring at it for a minute and finding something else.[/quote]
That sums up a lot of my Hobb experience. Except that I read the first chapter or 2 for the second Soldier Son series before I took it back to the library. I found it less than interesting, and my suspicions about where the story was going did absolutely nothing for me. IIRC, Malta and Althea in general were anything but sympathetic to me. Wintrow was a great character, but he was the near-Fitz character for the story and the rest of the family never really connected for me. They should have, but didn't. Also, the things learned in the Tawny Man completely killed what enjoyment I got from the ending. I cared a [b]lot[/b] more about the non-humans than the humans in that series.

As I think back, Hobb books have a male-male dynamic that has worked very well for me: Fitz-Chade, Fitz-Burrich, Fitz-Fool, Wintrow-his Father, Wintrow-Kennit, Fitz-the various boys in Tawny Man (his adopted, biological, and should-have-been sons), Nevarre-the plainsman who trained him, and Nevarre-his friend in the Acadamy who wanted to marry his cousin. (Even though I hardly cared at all about Nevarre, the relationships were interesting.)

All of the male-female and female-female dynamics she has created since adopting the psuedonym have done absolutely nothing for me. I don't know what that says about me except that I consider the Fool to be male.

[Dothwacky]

I assumed the Fool was a woman based on the White Prophet having a male catalyst and I thought the Black Man's catalyst was a woman.

Or am I just out of it at this stupid hour.

[RedEyedGhost]

[quote name='Gigei' post='1386332' date='Jun 6 2008, 02.52']I have read of the gender switching theory, like when he has his fever/sickness and his skin darkens, he switches male-female or vice versa. I don't but into that theory but it is certainly possible.
[b]
I notice that the black man is male while the fake White Prophet is female so probably the other prophets before did not have nay confusing gender issues. The Fool is just freakish that way.[/b][/quote]



[quote name='shortstark' post='1387066' date='Jun 6 2008, 14.10']Reading this thread has reminded me of how great these books are...

I am in (or was) the Fool is male camp, [b]but the idea that the fool changes gender while he undergoes other physical changes resonates[/b], while there is no evidence in the books to support this, it is pretty neat, and i bet if Hobb reads this she is wishing that she had thought of it first :P .

On endings.... i have said it before on this board, and i will repeat it here, the ending of the Farseer trilogy to me is the most perfect, best ending of ANY scifi/ fantasy book i have read... and while i enjoyed Tawny Man, i would have been happy if she had left it there.....[/quote]

Just because the Pale Woman is a woman and the Black Man is a man doesn't disprove the theory. The Pale Woman has not ever caused a change and has never undergone one herself. The Black Man's Catalyst died some time ago, and if he did undergo gender reversals he would have long ago become accustomed to being a man.

A possible reason the Fool hides his/her gender is that s/he know that Fitz is not the most accepting of men. Had Fitz been interested in a romantic relationship with the Fool then the Fool would have confessed his transgenderism. If the theory is true.


[quote name='Dothwacky' post='1387359' date='Jun 6 2008, 20.34']I assumed the Fool was a woman based on the White Prophet having a male catalyst and I thought the Black Man's catalyst was a woman.

Or am I just out of it at this stupid hour.[/quote]

I don't think the gender of the Catalyst really matters. At least I didn't get that feeling as I read the books.

[Samalander]

Frankly, I grow weary of this debate.
I would however, like to suggest, that those of you who think the Fool is a guy, and he and Fitz were just really good friends, may be suffering from the same single minded blindness Fitz was suffering from in this regard.

[Gigei]

[quote name='Samalander' post='1387499' date='Jun 7 2008, 01.47']Frankly, I grow weary of this debate.
I would however, like to suggest, that those of you who think the Fool is a guy, and he and Fitz were just really good friends, may be suffering from the same single minded blindess Fitz was suffering from in this regard.[/quote]

QFT!

I just can't wrap my mind around the idea that the Fool is female. Male, maybe...but if so why the mystery, huh? That's why I prefer the no gender theory although I could probably get behind the both/switching gender theory. I just can't think why the Fool would make a big deal out of it, he tells Fitz pretty much everything but when it comes to his gender, oh no its TOP SECRET.

[Shaun Snow]

On her newsgroup Robin recently asked fans what they thought of the idea of a book featuring Fitz and the Fool but written from a different PoV. She emphasied that people shouldn't take that as evidence of anything, but I think its an interesting idea.

Oh, and IMO the Fool's a man with a gay crush on his straight best friend.