Dislike of Daenerys

[Xray the Enforcer]

[quote name='russianbandit' post='1419122' date='Jun 28 2008, 01.05']There was peace for the duration of his ruling.[/quote]

Not really. There was that unfortunate Iron Islands incident, which led to Theon being sent away as a hostage for peace at Winterfell.

Robert was a crap king book-ended by even crappier ones. He only looks good in comparison to them, but objectively speaking, he was incompetent.

Also, I like King Bronn's assessment of things.

[Ouroboros]

So let me get this straight, people are pissed at Dany for not acting emo and bitching about her lot in life? They dislike her because she's proactive and doesn't curl up into a ball to sob after she gets kicked down?

I like the fact she just gets on with the job and focuses on the future. If she dwelt on the past she'd never get anything done. And anyway, aren't their enough characters going through that already? Why do we need one more to add to the angst-fest? not everyone responds the same way to the crap live puts on them, I've met plenty of people who react the way Dany has (thuogh not in such an extreme case) Some people don't live in the past. She's a practical optimist, the problem is she's surrounded by a cast that keeps growing more cynical and pessimistic as time goes by so it stands out more.

[Maia]

[quote name='Paxter' post='1419306' date='Jun 28 2008, 09.27']I agree with the majority of your post Maia, but not this. Jon had to kill Qhorin Halfhand, who had become a real mentor to Jon, in order for the wildlings to accept him as a turncloak.[/quote]

It was hard, but not really a choice, though. Qhorin and Ghost forced him into it - which is symptomatic for Jon. Hard choice would have been if Jon decided to do it on his own or came up with that plan.

[quote]And speaking of hard choices - Jon had to abandon and the kill the first woman he ever loved because of his vows and his allegiance to the Night's Watch. And you still think Jon has had it easy?[/quote]

Well, his escape was forced on him too. If he wasn't required to murder a civilian, which put him in untenable situation with the Thenns and Summer didn't appear would he have escaped? Maybe there is a tad more choice there - Jon did refuse to kill the man, but still. A hard choice would have been to kill the man to facilitate his escape and run away on his own, rather than being forced into it. Etc. As to killing Ygritte - they fought on different sides and she was killed, but he didn't _chose_ to kill her. It was a tragedy, yes.

Poobah:

[quote]We've never actually seen her suffer as a result, we don't see her waking up in bed screaming for her dead child, drenched in sweat, we don't hear about her nightmares.[/quote]

And it has been explained why. She is purposefully blocking it. A very realistic response, for somebody in her situation. I imagine that at some point it is going to come back with a vengeance. I have often read that soldiers during a war seldom have nightmares - they come later, after the war is done. Dany is in a similar situation - she is in a highly functioning survival mode and very busy. She'll fall apart when/if she has a chance to relax.

And BTW, I don't recall any of the younger Stark POVs having nightmares and screaming fits either - and they have seen and experienced enough horrors, too.

[mormont]

[quote name='Poobah' post='1419319' date='Jun 28 2008, 14.49']RE : Danny Defence, specifically with regards to all the horrors she has been through, I think that's bull. The point is that her child dying did set her up for greater power, loosing her family, getting abused by Viserys just served to show us that she was 'strong' and tell us about his character etc. We've never actually seen her [b]suffer[/b] as a result, we don't see her waking up in bed screaming for her dead child, drenched in sweat, we don't hear about her nightmares. Instead we see her working up a different kind of sweat with her handmaidens.[/quote]

The trouble is, most of this could be made to apply to other characters. Arya is an easy example. Being separated from her family, losing her mentor figures, all the stuff she's been through? Just 'setting her up' for becoming a badass killer, and showing us that she's strong. She never looks back either, never admits to weakness, never visibly suffers.

(Of course, she does suffer. We see that in her reactions to the world around her. But we see that in Dany too. The reason she behaves as she does, is what she has been through. She doesn't dare to open herself up to love, for example, for fear that she'll become a secondary adjunct to some man, as she was with Drogo and Viserys. She doesn't dare show weakness or doubt, either, though she certainly feels them.)

Dany seems as human as any other character to me. I think GRRM succeeded well enough there.

[Krafus]

I think all the arguments about Dany having "had it easy" are not only bull but also highly hypocritical. Regardless of their generally positive outcomes, the fact is that she's had to go through several very difficult events: a childhood filled with fear, the stress of thinking she was being sold as a sex slave by her brother to a huge barbarian, then losing that man, as well as their unborn child, when she'd come to love him. And despite all that, she still tries to protect her followers and to be as good a ruler as she can be.

As to the hypocritical part, Dany has done a lot more to earn what she has than the hundreds of lords in Westeros who had it handed to them simply because of the laws of inheritance. We've seen that many of those lords are selfish, ambitious, incompetent, and/or downright idiots. What has that bumbling oaf Mace Tyrell ever done to deserve the Reach, aside from being the eldest son of Luthor Tyrell?

[Paxter]

[quote name='Maia' post='1419357' date='Jun 28 2008, 22.36']As to killing Ygritte - they fought on different sides and she was killed, but he didn't _choose_ to kill her. It was a tragedy, yes.[/quote]

By choosing to fight on a different side to Ygritte, Jon virtually sealed her fate. This was a choice: to oppose Ygritte and the wildlings and (probably) cause her death or to join Ygritte and live as a wildling. This was a [i]hard[/i] choice that confronted Jon. He was not 'forced' into anything. To part with your lover or to part with your honour. Jon [i]chose[/i] the former. His namesake Jon Arryn and father Ned would probably be proud. But make no mistake - this decision will have a lasting impact on Jon. He hasn't had it "easy" at all.

[Maia]

[quote name='Paxter' post='1419368' date='Jun 28 2008, 10.00']By choosing to fight on a different side to Ygritte, Jon virtually sealed her fate. This was a choice: to oppose Ygritte and the wildlings and (probably) cause her death or to join Ygritte and live as a wildling.[/quote]

Except that Jon discovered that he didn't have what it took to live like a wildling. How is that a choice? Now, if the whole old man interlude + Summer hasn't been there, _then_ it would have been truly a hard choice. Or if it had been truly clear that Ygritte would die for his desertion and was in fact killed. But like it was - he endangered the wildlings plan, sure, but they knew that they were very likely betrayed. It was their - and Ygritte's choice to go on with it, rather than doing something else.

[Guest Other-in-law]

[quote name='Errant Bard' post='1419246' date='Jun 28 2008, 06.23']It depends on what you think is the character's obligatory path in life. Losing Drogo and Rhaego is good for her a a Targaryen conqueror and absolute ruler. With them, she was shackled, forced to submit to her husband and ultimately her son. Heroes, as a rule, need their family to be absent or dead to really go heroing around the place.

So, as a person, losing a child is hard, really hard, and saying that magical pets are worth it is lucridous, but as a character in the larger story, losing her child is a mere plot device to empower her with more individuality, confidence, resolve, and military might. For her archetype, that's a boon.

Am I making sense?[/quote]
I understand your point, but I don't think that we should minimise a character's emotional trauma based on their archetype role. I realise you're viewing the two aspects separately, but many readers seem to just ignore or deny the human angle. And again, by that standard being shot was [i]great[/i] for JFK's plot arc.

It's a bit of the difference between a character being likable for themself, and being well-written. ASoIaF has plenty of despicable characters that we love to hate; odious in themselves but wonderfully written. Your criticism seems to be that Dany is poorly written (I'm probably a poor judge of that sort of thing, but I've always enjoyed her chapters and find her to be likeable), others lump everything together into the crudest sort of bashing possible. I suppose I should be glad that no one has advocated rape yet in this thread, as so often happens.

[Artanaro]

[quote name='Enguerrand' post='1419290' date='Jun 28 2008, 06.57']The purpose of Daenerys chapters is building her character, plot is just secondary to this.[/quote]

It doesn't matter what the purpose is. The plot is bad, and therefore, will make for a less enjoyable read. I believe Martin agrees with you. That doesn't if I agree with him, it'll make me like her chapters more.


[quote name='Paxter']I can see where you're coming from but personally I wouldn't use the word "immediately". I mean, sh
She had to put up with Viserys for most of her life before she finally got rid of him. There was no immediate reward for having suffered Viserys' torment.[/quote]

I don't buy this rationale. We hear about Viserys treatment towards Dany (I'm not saying it didn't happen), but it's not actually in the story (except for one or two occurences). Using what happened before the book begins, isn't relevant to what happens on screen. We see Dany has to suffer a little, and then gets a reward over and over again.

[b]On the topic of losing her child...[/b] I have to call shennigans partly. She didn't choose dragons over her baby. She chose Drogo over her baby. The choice was still hers. It wasn't taken without her consent. I don't mean that it wasn't a bad experience for her, but if someone killed her baby in a surprising manner, it would have been far more traumatic. She is the central blame for losing her child. She made a dumb mistake. How is that comparable to the poor treatment of Martin's other characters.

Artanaro

[Lord Roose Bolton]

Good things that happened to Dany:
-she got dragons
-she got a great army
-she conquered a few cities
-Barristan Selmy came to her


Bad things that happened to Dany:
-she lost a child
-she lost her husband
-her brother hit her all her life
-her brother is crazy
-she was a beggar for most of her life
-she was sold to a Khal
-she escapes hired daggers all her life
-the only man she ever trusted is a traitor
-she starved in a desert

Do the maths ;)

[hnv]

realy with dragons and elite army westros is on a silver plate for her

can you compare her suffering to those of:
every stark, tyrion and briena ?

[Artanaro]

Selective mathematics. I don't like :D
[quote name='Aegon the Conqueror' post='1419598' date='Jun 28 2008, 14.23']Good things that happened to Dany:
-she got dragons[/quote]

Correction, She got three dragons. That's three things.

[quote name='Aegon the Conqueror' post='1419598' date='Jun 28 2008, 14.23']-she conquered a few cities[/quote]
-she conquered three cities, That's three.

[quote name='Aegon the Conqueror' post='1419598' date='Jun 28 2008, 14.23']-Barristan Selmy came to her[/quote]
So did Strong Belwas. So did Daario Naharis. She also got three ships donated to her by Illyrio.

But you're missing a few things.
1. Robert died (made her happy).
2. Viserys died (I consider that a plus)


[quote name='Aegon the Conqueror' post='1419598' date='Jun 28 2008, 14.23']-she starved in a desert[/quote]
She went hungry. She didn't starve, or she would be dead.

[quote name='Aegon the Conqueror' post='1419598' date='Jun 28 2008, 14.23']Bad things that happened to Dany:
...[/quote]
I count eight bad things

Oh what would you know. I count thirteen good things, and eight bad. What a spoiled girl. ;)

Artanaro

[Ouroboros]

Technically Dany didn't know resurrecting Drogo would kill her child, she only knew she would have to pay a price. Remember the witch tricked her into attempting resurrection specifically so she could kill the 'stallion that mounts the world'.

[Artanaro]

Ouroboros, being dumb doesn't absolve her of blame. She brought the loss of her child upon herself. It's not like Sansa who was forced to marry a dwarf, or Catelyn who was murdered by the Freys. She holds some accountability for the outcome. If her son had died, and Khal Drogo returned to his former self, would you say what she did was terrible? I would. If Mira had not mentioned any price, I'd agree with you. She did, so Dany deserves blame. I'm not using this to denigrate her as a character. I'm using this to point out, the worst thing to happen to her, is of her own making.

Artanaro

[Ouroboros]

I wouldn't say she was dumb. She believed Mira was her friend but Mira had tricked her. And if Mira had said 'I can resurrect Drogo but only if you sacrifice your son,' she would have given a firm but emphatic no. And anyone who is in such an emotional state as Dany was then can't be expected to think clearly or logically. If anything that incident was a good example of Dany's worst flaw, trusting strangers. She was gullible and vulnerable, and she paid a heavy price for that gullibility. It was no more of her own making then Ned's execution was his. After all, wasn't he also screwed over for being too trusting and putting his faith in false friends?

[Guest Other-in-law]

Losing her baby actually [i]is[/i] something that was forced on her. She didn't walk willingly into the tent with the dancing shadows, she was dragged in against her will.

[jack-be-lucky]

[quote name='Calanctus' post='1419070' date='Jun 27 2008, 22.26']Dany's chapters, to me, read like a neat little sword and sorcery novella. Yeah, it doesn't always fit in with the Westeros story, and yeah, some of the things in her chapters are more improbable than in other POV's chapters, but so what? I grew up on stuff like Conan and the Lankhmar stories. I don't have a problem with Dany's narrative being in the same story as the political intrigue and war in Westeros.[/quote]
I hope you don't mind if I just do alittle edit on your post. I think it might be better to say [b] a Hugo award winning [/b]novella[b][/b]. We don't want to give the man short-shrift.
I remember when first reading AGOT thinking that Dany hatching the dragons was so Predictable. But when the scene finally came and she walked into that bonfire with the milk coming from her breast, then walked back out of the ashes suckling dragons, I sure didn't see that coming. Pure mad genius.

[Knight of the Teabags]

Losing Rhaego is another one of the tragic events which though sad for her personally, is actually rather convenient for Dany's rise to power.

Imagine Dany trying to do everything she's done since with the added burden of having to carry round a screaming baby with her.

[Daena the Defiant]

[quote name='Tom O'Sevens' post='1419688' date='Jun 28 2008, 19.14']Losing Rhaego is another one of the tragic events which though sad for her personally, is actually rather convenient for Dany's rise to power.

Imagine Dany trying to do everything she's done since with the added burden of having to carry round a screaming baby with her.[/quote]


Enh - they'd just purchase a wetnurse/nanny for her. Having children doesn't really present a problem for noblewomen aside from the actual pregnancy and birth. They just drop them on some servant and have them brought out already dressed, fed and changed.

Even someone who was ostensibly a good noble mother like Catelyn had maids brush Sansa's hair unless Catelyn was in the mood to do it herself.

[Paxter]

[quote name='Maia' post='1419417' date='Jun 29 2008, 00.08']Except that Jon discovered that he didn't have what it took to live like a wildling. How is that a choice?[/quote]

Hmm...let me think. The choice is: should I be a wildling or should I be a member of the Night's Watch? And of course Jon had what it takes to be a wildling - I mean, he killed Qhorin did he not? He just [i]chose[/i] not to be a wildling. Anyway we are going to have to agree to disagree on this point because we are starting to hijack the thread. Let's save our arguments about Jon for another time :)