The Wheel of Time by Robert Jordan

[Rhom]

[quote name='Slurktan' post='1573360' date='Oct 31 2008, 11.43']Rnad, Mat, and Perrin are not teenagers. But yes the cover art is awful and RJ had said as much before he passed.[/quote]

Ummm... I'm pretty sure they are when the story starts. It may span a couple years time at this point allowing them to be near the legal drinking age in the US... but without checking my copy of Eye of the World, I'm quite certain they are teenagers.

[Andhaira]

Yeah what was it about those stupid covers!

Seriously, there is SO much good artwork about, even back in those days. I mean just check out pnp rpg books, comics, etc.

Ihope they doa reprint of the covers, this time all the cast members have an anime look! I can already picture Moiraine...

[fionwe1987]

[quote name='Krafus' post='1573201' date='Oct 31 2008, 08.52']Ah, ok. Looks like I misinterpreted the wording of one of your earlier posts, and associated you with the Goodkind "If you don't like his books, it's only because you're not mature enough to understand them" crowd. Apologies.[/quote]
No problems! :cheers:

[Fatuous]

[quote name='Billy Clyde' post='1573383' date='Oct 31 2008, 12.02']Ummm... I'm pretty sure they are when the story starts. It may span a couple years time at this point allowing them to be near the legal drinking age in the US... but without checking my copy of Eye of the World, I'm quite certain they are teenagers.[/quote]

Mat on the Fires of Heaven cover looked like a 40 year old Clint Eastwood or maybe Charles Bronson from Once Upon a Time in the West but I think his age was meant to be 20 or 21. DK Sweet never captured the best scene of each particular book but does anybody know whose fault it was?

"Winter's Heart should be Perrin and his group, knee deep in snow. Crossroads of Twilight should be some random shot of Mat's group in fall/winter then. Knife of Dreams should be a tent scene of Perrin just so we could see something from the early part of the book and so it balances with Mat's cover. Rand's had enough covers already as he was the focus of 1-8."

I think the only really good cover was The Dragon Reborn even though it shows a scene that didn't really happen in the book. And Mat looks like a fop, that was an issue as well.

[Poobah]

The best covers are the UK ones. No random tacky generic fantasy crap.

-Poobs

[Rhom]

[quote name='Andhaira' post='1573390' date='Oct 31 2008, 12.09']Yeah what was it about those stupid covers!

Seriously, there is SO much good artwork about, even back in those days. I mean just check out pnp rpg books, comics, etc.

Ihope they doa reprint of the covers, this time all the cast members have an anime look! I can already picture Moiraine...[/quote]

I bought the WoT RPG source book just for some good reading material. There were some great "anime" versions of several of the characters in that.

[quote name='Poobah' post='1573511' date='Oct 31 2008, 14.02']The best covers are the UK ones. No random tacky generic fantasy crap.

-Poobs[/quote]

Havn't seen those. Any good links to where they might be compiled?

[Poobah]

[url="http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_ss_w_h_/026-7899757-2687618?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=Wheel+Of+Time&x=0&y=0"]That Aught To Do It[/url]

[williamjm]

[quote name='Poobah' post='1573511' date='Oct 31 2008, 18.02']The best covers are the UK ones. No random tacky generic fantasy crap.[/quote]

The first few books in the series that I have are fairly generic fantasy covers from before they switched to their new style for the UK books. They're not particularly good covers but they are at least better than the awful American covers.

[Werthead]

[quote name='fionwe1987' post='1573075' date='Oct 31 2008, 09.19'][i]For those readers anxiously waiting for the Dark One to lash out with the first fell stroke of the Last Battle, you'll find it here in the Crossroads of Twilight. No, the vast armies of Trollocs and their Eyeless taskmasters don't boil forth from the Blight to overrun the heart of Randland, leaving only carnage and destruction in their wake; instead, in a dazzling and completely unforeseen plot twist, Shai'tan unleashes his legions of weevils against our unsuspecting heroes, and no one's grain is safe. I'm getting chills now just thinking about the brilliance of the move. Just think: weevils in the grain require winnowing, and winnowing cuts down on the profit margins of merchants, and lower profit margins means bankruptcy. I absolutely cannot wait for book 11, where we will surely see the entire economy collapse, and then it's just a small matter to bring this incredible series to a close. The Dark One will be revealed as an evil loan shark, and he'll break free from the Central Bank of Shayol Ghul and repossess every palace, dress-shop, and circus on the continent. I just hope Cadsuane can teach Rand some creative re-financing options before the situation becomes hopeless.
Some other notable developments:

The quality of tea has really taken a nosedive since the early books in the series, and it's starting to negatively impact the morale of our heroes. After all, what's the upside of fighting off pure evil if you can't even get a decent cup of tea when you're pregnant and temperamental?

The Dark One inappropriately touches one of his minions. I'm expecting a sexual harassment lawsuit in the next volume.

Hundreds of dresses are described in such intricate detail that I was able to sew exact replicas. I'm wearing one right now, in fact. For hundreds of other patterns, you can shop at wheeloftimewardrobe.com.

We are introduced to the riveting social intricacies of the gai'shain laundering subculture.

Perrin gets bored with his own plotline and breaks out of character for a minute before returning to form.

Woolheads battle ninnies and hilarity ensues. Braid tugging is on the wane. Someone sniffs.[/i][/quote]

Superb review. It accurately and in some detail outlines the primary problems with CoT and does so with humour.

If you want to prove a point, may I suggest not using an example that destroys your own argument?

[quote]Nope. If I'm lambasting anyone, its Wert for using these reviews to justify his point. People who waited for the book have every right to get pissed off and review the book with that in mind. Using this to justify your view of the book?[/quote]

As I said before, this has nothing to do with it. CoT was shit after waiting 2 years for it, and it's still shit if you read it immediately after WH. A few die-hard Jordan apologists think differently? Good for you. Doesn't change the [b]fact[/b] that this book is the least popular in the series by miles. The other ten all have issues, but they are all consistently reviewed far better than CoT is.

[quote]Again, I agree that such a reaction is natural and valid for long-time readers to have a negative view of the book. Can we use these reviews to say that "duh, CoT sucks, because everyone says so"? [i]That[/i] is what I'm arguing.[/quote]

Welcome to democracy.

[quote]The first few books in the series that I have are fairly generic fantasy covers from before they switched to their new style for the UK books. They're not particularly good covers but they are at least better than the awful American covers.[/quote]

The old UK covers actually are the US covers by Darrel K. Sweet, before they switched to the new covers for the paperback of Book 9 and the hardcover of Book 10.

[quote]Ummm... I'm pretty sure they are when the story starts. It may span a couple years time at this point allowing them to be near the legal drinking age in the US... but without checking my copy of Eye of the World, I'm quite certain they are teenagers.[/quote]
Rand, Mat and Perrin are 19 when the series starts. They all turn 20 during the gap between [i]The Great Hunt[/i] and [i]The Dragon Reborn[/i], and are 21 by the end of KoD (they should have celebrated their 21st birthdays during LoC, but had more important things on their mind). Egwene is 17 when the series starts and I think Elayne is 16. Nynaeve is 24 or 25 when the series starts.

[fionwe1987]

[quote name='Werthead' post='1573683' date='Oct 31 2008, 16.04']Superb review. It accurately and in some detail outlines the primary problems with CoT and does so with humour.[/quote]
Really? A review that completely misses all the major events in the book is accurate? I'll keep that in mind when I read one of yours next time.
[quote]If you want to prove a point, may I suggest not using an example that destroys your own argument?[/quote]
Your own belief that this review is good only proves my point. If you can, give me a critical review of CoT which does not descend into hyperbole and fabrication of facts. It should be easy to do, since CoT [i]does[/i] have weaknesses enough to discuss.

[quote]As I said before, this has nothing to do with it. CoT was shit after waiting 2 years for it, and it's still shit if you read it immediately after WH. A few die-hard Jordan apologists think differently? Good for you. Doesn't change the [b]fact[/b] that this book is the least popular in the series by miles. The other ten all have issues, but they are all consistently reviewed far better than CoT is.[/quote]
And your own initial view of CoT did nothing to color your opinion when you read it a second time? I'm talking here about people who read CoT immediately after reading WH for the [i]first[/i] time.
I never denied that it is the least popular book in the series. I'm only mystified how this is relevant in a discussion of the quality of the book.
And since when was it cool to label anyone with a view differing from yours as a "die-hard apologist"?
[quote]Welcome to democracy.[/quote]
Of the gang rape kind? Since when was quality measured in terms of popularity? By your ridiculous definition of "democracy", Rowling is a better author than Jordan, Martin, Erikson, Wolfe, and a host of other authors. Am I correct in thinking that this is your view?

[Galactus]

I really hated CoT after I read it, but after re-reading the series I can't bring myself to do so. Yeah, it's the weakest book in the series by far, but I just can't bring myself to judge it as an isolate: It's a part of the series as a whole, and as such I think it's neccessary (given the shape of the series) and the series as a whole still has enough for me to like that I can forgive CoT.

[williamjm]

[quote name='Werthead' post='1573683' date='Oct 31 2008, 20.04']The old UK covers actually are the US covers by Darrel K. Sweet, before they switched to the new covers for the paperback of Book 9 and the hardcover of Book 10.[/quote]

I thought I remembered the US covers being worse, but maybe I'm confusing it with some other Wheel of Time illustrations in the World of Wheel of Time book which I think were bad as well.

[Commodore]

This series has many flaws, but the world is so well crafted and the story so epic in scale, it's still worth reading.

Are the characters and relationships between men and women simplistic? Yes

Does the story drag in places? Yes

But the world and magic system and overall premise is still one of the best ever created.

It's not a literary masterpiece, but it's enjoyable to read, and that's all that matters.

Plus, for a lot of people like myself, the WoT is what got them interested in the fantasy genre as a kid, and that means it has a special place in my literary heart, and I am willing to overlook it's flaws.

People who trash the WoT need to understand that its popularity got alot of people interested in fantasy and helped sales of other new fantasy authors.

[Fatuous]

[quote name='Galactus' post='1573801' date='Oct 31 2008, 18.00']I really hated CoT after I read it, but after re-reading the series I can't bring myself to do so. Yeah, it's the weakest book in the series by far, but I just can't bring myself to judge it as an isolate: It's a part of the series as a whole, and as such I think it's neccessary (given the shape of the series) and the series as a whole still has enough for me to like that I can forgive CoT.[/quote]
:agree:

If Jordan said at the end of Crossroads that the story for that book was too big and he had to split it into two books then nobody would look at book 10 without thinking that it's nothing but an opener to the much better Knife of Dreams. Considering books 8 though 11, it's nothing short of amazing how many plots threads get resolved in the second half of book 11. Or "Long overdue" if you want to take that view.

[Werthead]

[quote name='fionwe1987' post='1573757' date='Oct 31 2008, 21.13']Really? A review that completely misses all the major events in the book is accurate? I'll keep that in mind when I read one of yours next time.[/quote]

He remembers the weevils, which were probably the most menacing and threatening part of the book for sure.

[quote]Your own belief that this review is good only proves my point. If you can, give me a critical review of CoT which does not descend into hyperbole and fabrication of facts. It should be easy to do, since CoT [i]does[/i] have weaknesses enough to discuss.[/quote]

Certainly, in about four weeks if I keep up the current speed of the re-read.

[quote]And your own initial view of CoT did nothing to color your opinion when you read it a second time? I'm talking here about people who read CoT immediately after reading WH for the [i]first[/i] time.[/quote]

Why would it? The second time I didn't have to wait two years for it.

[quote]I never denied that it is the least popular book in the series. I'm only mystified how this is relevant in a discussion of the quality of the book.[/quote]

I don't know, perhaps because there might be a [i]reason [/i]why it's the least popular book in the series? As in, the problems which blight the book are so pervasive and overwhelming that huge numbers of people, including those who loved the earlier books, are moved to comment on it?

[quote]Of the gang rape kind? Since when was quality measured in terms of popularity? By your ridiculous definition of "democracy", Rowling is a better author than Jordan, Martin, Erikson, Wolfe, and a host of other authors. Am I correct in thinking that this is your view?[/quote]

False comparison. Almost every person who has read CoT has also read EotW and the other books (unless they are barmy, or got the book out of the library at random or something) and can thus make that call about its place in the series, whilst not everyone who has read Rowling has read the other named authors and thus cannot make that judgement.

[quote]People who trash the WoT need to understand that its popularity got alot of people interested in fantasy and helped sales of other new fantasy authors.[/quote]

This is correct. There's also the fact it opened many doors for other fantasy authors. Whilst [b]ASoIaF[/b] would have been published without [b]WoT[/b] (since GRRM sold it as a trilogy), it's arguable how much longer it would have taken to gain popularity without the Jordan cover-quote. And it's quite likely the [b]Malazan[/b] series would never have been published at all without [b]WoT[/b] blazing a trail for lengthy series consisting of huge novels.

[quote]If Jordan said at the end of Crossroads that the story for that book was too big and he had to split it into two books then nobody would look at book 10 without thinking that it's nothing but an opener to the much better Knife of Dreams. Considering books 8 though 11, it's nothing short of amazing how many plots threads get resolved in the second half of book 11. Or "Long overdue" if you want to take that view.[/quote]

There is still the issue that CoT is still 800 pages in which very little happens. The major events of the book could be compressed into a few chapters with absolutely no loss to the narrative drive of the series, and the rest of KoD could have been squeezed into the book with no problems at all. So even if you do view the two books as halves of one whole, the first half can still be considered not only a failure but a needless one. RJ made the wrong call with the book, to the detriment of the overall series. If Book 10 had come out and it was essentially KoD with a few extra chapters at the start, I think the problems with PoD and WH would have been seen as worth it to get the series back on track with, hopefully, a good ending to follow it up with. As it stands, CoT broke the camel's back and was the last straw for a lot of readers.

[Wik]

[quote name='Commodore' post='1573881' date='Oct 31 2008, 19.58']This series has many flaws, but the world is so well crafted and the story so epic in scale, it's still worth reading.

Are the characters and relationships between men and women simplistic? Yes

Does the story drag in places? Yes

But the world and magic system and overall premise is still one of the best ever created.

It's not a literary masterpiece, but it's enjoyable to read, and that's all that matters.

Plus, for a lot of people like myself, the WoT is what got them interested in the fantasy genre as a kid, and that means it has a special place in my literary heart, and I am willing to overlook it's flaws.

People who trash the WoT need to understand that its popularity got alot of people interested in fantasy and helped sales of other new fantasy authors.[/quote]

I don't think just because something is in an "epic" scale that automatically makes it worth reading, or more readable. The simplicity of the characters is exactly one of the big turn offs for me.

I confess I have not read much at all of this series although a very good friend adores them( He tried to get me into the series). Martin's series is what got me hooked on fantasy, not Jordan. The world seem pretty good, but frankly I prefer Bakker's type of magic. Having the ability to Bale Fire someone, or get 8 of your closest buddies together to do it seems WAY overdone for me. I prefer Martin's world and magic above all however...I despise magic in fantasy and much prefer mundane battles, knights, lords and intrigue. Usually magic is far overdone and too powerful (in the case of WoT, IMO).

Anyhow I am not trying to bash the series, like I said I have not read all the way through, it was just way to dry for me personally. I guess my point is the "new" crop of authors like GRRM and Bakker are really pushing the bar up (again in my opinion) in fantasy, and while WoT made a huge mark, these other authors are bringing in new people to the genre all the time.

[HammerOfGod]

[quote name='Billy Clyde' post='1573295' date='Oct 31 2008, 10.39']I always thought the cover looked vaguely like a romance novel. As long as we're piling on Jordan, can we also bash the cover art? Specifically the teenagers all looking damn near 40 years old?[/quote]

Darrel K. Sweet is a sorry excuse for an artist...

Perrin is a 300 lb Blacksmith and he makes him look like an elf...

On the cover of Lord of Chaos he has Rand with spindly legs and a huge barrel chest with wide shoulders...his legs would not be able to hold him up...

[HammerOfGod]

[quote name='Bigpop' post='1573969' date='Oct 31 2008, 23.31']I don't think just because something is in an "epic" scale that automatically makes it worth reading, or more readable. The simplicity of the characters is exactly one of the big turn offs for me.

I confess I have not read much at all of this series although a very good friend adores them( He tried to get me into the series). Martin's series is what got me hooked on fantasy, not Jordan. The world seem pretty good, but frankly I prefer Bakker's type of magic. Having the ability to Bale Fire someone, or get 8 of your closest buddies together to do it seems WAY overdone for me. I prefer Martin's world and magic above all however...I despise magic in fantasy and much prefer mundane battles, knights, lords and intrigue. Usually magic is far overdone and too powerful (in the case of WoT, IMO).

Anyhow I am not trying to bash the series, like I said I have not read all the way through, it was just way to dry for me personally. I guess my point is the "new" crop of authors like GRRM and Bakker are really pushing the bar up (again in my opinion) in fantasy, and while WoT made a huge mark, these other authors are bringing in new people to the genre all the time.[/quote]

Jordan has put in safeguards with his powerful magic...with the Aes Sedai you have the Three Oaths which is like tying your right hand behind you when you go into a fight...

Bale Fire has only been used 5 times in over a million words...Moiraine and Nynaeve used Bale fire only one time in the third book...and Nynaeve still dosen't understand what she did...

Rand used Bale Fire once in The Shadow Rising...and he killed Ravin with it in The Fires of Heaven...and Rand used it against the fog from hell in A Crown of Swords...then Cadsuane came over slapped him is the face and told him never to use it again...

Jordan well understood that you have to put a curb on anything that is that powerful...any writer worth their salt understands that it is human effort that make a book or books work...it can't be to easy or the reader loses interest...

There is still speculation that when Rand seals up the Dark One...that The One Power will be forgotten by men and women until the wheel turns and it is necessary again...

[HammerOfGod]

[quote name='Billy Clyde' post='1573383' date='Oct 31 2008, 12.02']Ummm... I'm pretty sure they are when the story starts. It may span a couple years time at this point allowing them to be near the legal drinking age in the US... but without checking my copy of Eye of the World, I'm quite certain they are teenagers.[/quote]

Nynaeve is 26

Rand, Mat and Perrin are 20

Egwene and Elayne are 18

At the start of Eye of The World

Nynaeve was 24

Rand, Mat and Perrin were 18

Egwene and Elayne were 16

[HammerOfGod]

[quote name='Fatuous' post='1573466' date='Oct 31 2008, 13.24']Mat on the Fires of Heaven cover looked like a 40 year old Clint Eastwood or maybe Charles Bronson from Once Upon a Time in the West but I think his age was meant to be 20 or 21. DK Sweet never captured the best scene of each particular book but does anybody know whose fault it was?

"Winter's Heart should be Perrin and his group, knee deep in snow. Crossroads of Twilight should be some random shot of Mat's group in fall/winter then. Knife of Dreams should be a tent scene of Perrin just so we could see something from the early part of the book and so it balances with Mat's cover. Rand's had enough covers already as he was the focus of 1-8."

I think the only really good cover was The Dragon Reborn even though it shows a scene that didn't really happen in the book. And Mat looks like a fop, that was an issue as well.[/quote]

I think the best cover was The Eye of The World...it all went down hill after that...