The Wheel of Time by Robert Jordan

[kcf]

[quote name='Galactus' post='1569171' date='Oct 27 2008, 14.11']That OTOH I think is a reasonable piece of fanwank :P[/quote]

Call it what you will, but it'a an accurate description of most of the relationships dealt with in the books. We are talking about a bunch of people who range in age from their late-teens to early twenties. Even Nynaeve is only in her mid-twenties. When I look back to most of the relationships I had at those ages, juvenile is a pretty good description for some them.

I'm not saying that Jordan doesn't have his flaws, I'm just pointing out that giving the correct context to the situation helps the discussion. For example (as I used earlier), Faile comes across as a annoying juvenile because that's what she is, a sixteen year-old kid.

[Bury me a G]

To me, Wheel of Time was the best thing I'd ever read, until I read a song of ice and fire. The problem with WoT is that Jordan let it get to big and once he got to book 10 there was no way he could finish the series without writing another 5 books. And look what happened, he died before he finished it.

[cseresz]

[quote name='mormont' post='1568602' date='Oct 27 2008, 17.50']it just happens because the author decided it would happen.[/quote]

That's exactly it. This is a fictive story from a writer, he controls everything. :)

[Slurktan]

[quote name='Shryke' post='1569061' date='Oct 27 2008, 16.19']And saying they weren't left alone is strange. They were with Lan and Moraine most of when they first met. Neither of whom I would even consider all that friendly to Perrin. It's just not that kind of dynamic between them.[/quote]

Read TDR again. Perrin's chapters have him thinking repeatedly that Lan doesn't talk to anybody, Moiraine is mad at him and doesn't talk to him and Loial reads his books all day. If they want to talk it has to be to each other.

Mormont,

True RJ didn't show most of the stuff between Perrin and Faile in those weeks, he advanced the plot. He did show it with Mat and Tuon in CoT. Then people criticized his writing for showing that and not advancing plot. So it seems damned if he does, damned if he doesn't. I'm curious from your statement as to whether you actually don't believe that opposites attract?

[Werthead]

[quote name='kcf' post='1569038' date='Oct 27 2008, 20.09']I think you're partially correct, however, most of the relationships in these books are with younger people. For example, Faile is all of 16 when she meets Perrin. It may be more correct to argue that the relationships are juvenile because they involve a bunch of juveniles.[/quote]

Except that [i]everyone[/i] acts like this regardless of age. Basel Gill and his cook, Bran and Marin al'Vere, Lan and Nynaeve, Siuan and Gareth, Rhuarc and his wives, Davram Bashere and his wife etc.

[quote name='cseresz' post='1570103' date='Oct 28 2008, 14.59']That's exactly it. This is a fictive story from a writer, he controls everything. :)[/quote]

True, but one of the points of writing is to ensure the reader gets lost in the story. If the reader is thinking, "The writer hasn't made me believe this," the writer has failed.

[Shryke]

[quote name='Slurktan' post='1570168' date='Oct 28 2008, 11.34']Read TDR again. Perrin's chapters have him thinking repeatedly that Lan doesn't talk to anybody, Moiraine is mad at him and doesn't talk to him and Loial reads his books all day. If they want to talk it has to be to each other.[/quote]

That's what I meant, Neither Lan nor Moraine are friendly with him, and Loial isn't the most talkative guy either.

[mormont]

[quote name='Slurktan' post='1570168' date='Oct 28 2008, 15.34']True RJ didn't show most of the stuff between Perrin and Faile in those weeks, he advanced the plot.[/quote]

It's not just a question of not showing the development of the relationship, though: it's a question of there being none to show.

[quote]He did show it with Mat and Tuon in CoT. Then people criticized his writing for showing that and not advancing plot. So it seems damned if he does, damned if he doesn't.[/quote]

A false dichotomy. RJ is being criticised for being unable to write a romantic relationship believably. Perhaps you're right that the way in which he fails with Mat and Tuon differs from how he fails with Perrin and Faile, although I still cannot recall any real development of the relationship in the former case. But that does not make either of them any less a failure.

[quote]I'm curious from your statement as to whether you actually don't believe that opposites attract?[/quote]

'Opposites attract' is a simplistic, superficial cliche. Like most cliches, it has a some truth: but it tells at most a small part of a small number of romantic attractions.

Any author worth his salt should only use it as a starting point towards developing an occasional romantic subplot of some depth, rather than as a stock ingredient forming the mainstay of almost all his characters' love lives.

[Slurktan]

[quote name='Werthead' post='1570298' date='Oct 28 2008, 12.51']True, but one of the points of writing is to ensure the reader gets lost in the story. If the reader is thinking, "The writer hasn't made me believe this," the writer has failed.[/quote]

No offense but that's a rather egotistical way of looking at it. Not all readers look at it that way. The writer has failed you which is fair enough but to another they might have wildly succeeded.

If possible please explain how the Al'Veres are juvenile, or Rhuarc and his wives, or really Lan and Nyneave.

Mormont,

I pretty much disagree entirely with your statement that they are failures but it's an opinion so fair enough. His romance or lack of believability thereof is just a part of the character. You decided to ignore the rest which is baffling. Does his descent into amorality take too long? Yes. It's still rather believable in my opinion.

[Conor]

[quote name='mormont' post='1568904' date='Oct 27 2008, 18.59']The latter is an authorial fiat. Indeed, it's part of what I am referring to: at least in terms of personality, it makes no sense that Perrin would be attracted to Faile. The 'attraction' should be purely physical and superficial, at most, and the proximity and time should therefore [i]decrease[/i] it.

As for the rest, in no way does that answer the point. Yes, they are together for a while. How does that make up for RJ failing to develop the relationship during that time? All you're saying here is that RJ had a situation where he [i]could have[/i] developed the relationship believably. But he didn't.

And the reason for both these things is that RJ is simply bad at writing romantic relationships. Perrin and Faile is the biggest example, but generally RJ's writing in this area suffers from the same two faults: one, he simply decides that two characters will fall and love and it happens. Two, he tends to pick characters that will clash, presumably in the misguided belief that 'opposites attract' or in the hope that this will give the relationship some sort of dynamic and therefore make it interesting.

RJ is good at some things, but the romances in WoT are terrible.[/quote]


I agree but this is just one example of a gimmick that Jordan used to gloss over many unlikely things. The gimmick of course is 'foretelling' or as I like to call it 'Getting the audience ready to accept the most bizarre, unnatural happenings by repeatedly telling them, before hand, that it was destined to be'.

Imagine WoT if Jordan had not used any foretelling devices such as Min's viewings etc. For example, would Rand be allowed to fall in love with 3 women. Hell no. Either he would be gelded by one of them or the 3 ladies would tear each other to shreds. Instead what do we get 'Acceptance' because it was meant to be.

Ditto Mat's love life. Perrin's love life. Lan's etc.

You get the picture!

[Moshe Goldberg Rubinshteyn]

[quote name='Conor' post='1570500' date='Oct 28 2008, 15.03']I agree but this is just one example of a gimmick that Jordan used to gloss over many unlikely things. The gimmick of course is 'foretelling' or as I like to call it 'Getting the audience ready to accept the most bizarre, unnatural happenings by repeatedly telling them, before hand, that it was destined to be'.

Imagine WoT if Jordan had not used any foretelling devices such as Min's viewings etc. For example, would Rand be allowed to fall in love with 3 women. Hell no. Either he would be gelded by one of them or the 3 ladies would tear each other to shreds. Instead what do we get 'Acceptance' because it was meant to be.

Ditto Mat's love life. Perrin's love life. Lan's etc.

You get the picture![/quote]

To be fair, it is a different world, where prophecy has a tendency to be fulfilled. I assume that it would be more natural for characters to resign to prophecy in such a world.

Think about the large number of people in the US who actually believe to be raptured in their lifetime and the influence such a belief has on their lives. It's not all that different I'd say.

Remember that Ran tried to avoid at least one of Min's viewing to be fulfilled. It was with Colavaere (sp?) and he didn't succeed.

[Conor]

Hi Cobblestones,

Maybe, but my point was that the foretelling allowed Jordan to create scenarios that simply would not otherwise come about. Imagine if Rand hooked up with Min (for some strange reason, remember she's not even attracted to him when they meet) would he then have entered on any other relationship say eith Elayne. And if he did, it would not be 'foretelling' he would be doing but foreplay to cheating.

[aariafromarty]

I seem to remember Faile chasing Perrin mainly during TSR. At first she follows Perrin cause she thinks it will lead her to the Horn of Valere. After things settle down in Tear, Perrin tries to find some sort of adventure that he believes she will go chase. She sticks around because she is attracted to Perrin.

I'd say the relationship developments in Tear fine. Especially by the end of the Two Rivers events.

[Zach H]

Faile comforting Perrin after he learns about his family's fate in TSR is one of the best moments of the series to me in terms of quiet character interaction. Not enough to compensate for Jordan's less than stellar brand of characterization across the board, perhaps, but still enough that after that point I could totally buy into the Faile/Perrin relationship.

[Moshe Goldberg Rubinshteyn]

[quote name='Conor' post='1570524' date='Oct 28 2008, 15.18']Hi Cobblestones,

Maybe, but my point was that the foretelling allowed Jordan to create scenarios that simply would not otherwise come about. Imagine if Rand hooked up with Min (for some strange reason, remember she's not even attracted to him when they meet) would he then have entered on any other relationship say eith Elayne. And if he did, it would not be 'foretelling' he would be doing but foreplay to cheating.[/quote]

I don't actually remember when Rand learns about Min's viewing. IIRC what happens first is Min's viewing in TEotW (which she keeps from Rand). Then he meets Elaine and they make out in TDR. In TSR, Rand sends Elaine away and goes to the Aiel waste with Aviendha. Aviendha knows about Elaine but also learns from the Rhuidean rings that she'll hook up with Rand eventually. This makes for some very awkward interaction between Rand and Aviendha for a long time until they actually hook up. Min and Elaine meet in Salidar, which is when Min shares her vision. Then there's the big character move-around in LoC where Aviendha and Mat meet Elaine in Salidar and Min meets Rand in Caemlyn. That's when Aviendha learns about the viewing. Rand actually hooks up with Min first after Dumai's Wells.

So, I think all three girls are aware of the viewing before Rand is. Rand feels very guilty about Aviendha and Min. In both instances he was in emotional distress. In the case of Aviendha, due to the ongoing awkward interaction between the two, and in the case of Min, I think that came right after Dumai's Wells. So there's certainly some kind of plausible explanation why he acted the way he did.

The bigger problem I see in the story is more the fact that apparently the three girls get along with each other so well. For Aviendha, it might come more natural, but Elaine and Min accept the situation too easily IMHO.

[Ouroboros]

Min tells Rand about her viewings the first time she meets him in Baerlon. She doesn't say who the women are, but she gives him a general description of the scene.

[Galactus]

[quote]Min and Elaine meet in Salidar[/quote]

I don't think that was the first time they met. Seems to recall they met briefly in the White Tower (and Elayne wondering why Min is acting so uncomfortable)

[quote]The bigger problem I see in the story is more the fact that apparently the three girls get along with each other so well. For Aviendha, it might come more natural, but Elaine and Min accept the situation too easily IMHO.[/quote]

I can sort of see it for Min tbh. If one thing is clear it's that Min trusts her visions absolutely implicitly. It's mainly Elayne that bothers me.


[quote]I agree but this is just one example of a gimmick that Jordan used to gloss over many unlikely things. The gimmick of course is 'foretelling' or as I like to call it 'Getting the audience ready to accept the most bizarre, unnatural happenings by repeatedly telling them, before hand, that it was destined to be'.

Imagine WoT if Jordan had not used any foretelling devices such as Min's viewings etc. For example, would Rand be allowed to fall in love with 3 women. Hell no. Either he would be gelded by one of them or the 3 ladies would tear each other to shreds. Instead what do we get 'Acceptance' because it was meant to be.[/quote]

I tend to simply take that as a part of the world. It's a world where Prophecy works and people believe in Fate a lot.

[Shryke]

[quote]I can sort of see it for Min tbh. If one thing is clear it's that Min trusts her visions absolutely implicitly. It's mainly Elayne that bothers me.[/quote]

The thing is, Elayne DOESN'T like it. Neither does Min.

They just accept it because it's the only way their gonna get ANY of Rand.

It's not unlike Mat, who doesn't really WANT to marry Tuon, at least at first, but makes a stab at getting to know her because "Fuck it, I'm gonna end up married to her anyway, might as well make it as pleasant as possible.".

[Fatuous]

[quote name='Werthead' post='1568943' date='Oct 27 2008, 15.25']Instead, they all pretty much feature women hen-pecking their men into doing things they don't want to, which in real life would be rather destructive and unhealthy.[/quote]

When the most powerful of women rule the world and the most powerful of men go insane and are "gelded", then yeah, that would happen. But the WoT isn't real life.

I have no complaints with the relationships in the Wheel of Time. Arranged marriages, secluded class society and a matriarchal base would result in a clearly different world with stunted relationships which is what Jordan did. "Oh, they're not realistic." Oh my god, you mean it's a fantasy?!

Shockers!


I've been rereading the series myself, thanks to this thread. I enjoy it more now and I'm still picking more stuff that has greater meaning in the later books. I never knew Moridin appeared so early in the series or that he was Merlin.

[Gigei]

I am re-reading some parts of it that suck and some that are good. WOT has a lot of both, frankly. It's up to whether to accept the good with the bad or just throw the books away in disgust. For me the "too much bad" point came during "Fires of Heaven."

[Zoë Sumra]

[quote name='Werthead' post='1568943' date='Oct 27 2008, 19.25']Instead, they all pretty much feature women hen-pecking their men into doing things they don't want to, which in real life would be rather destructive and unhealthy.[/quote]
Yes, in real life the more common relationship is men emotionally blackmailing or outright ordering their women into doing things they don't want to. This, while still destructive and unhealthy, is "normal", so is fine.

:rolleyes: