Male feminists?

[Stego]

Saying men are the problem is ok, but saying other women are the problem is is a devious undercurrent?




That's some sexist shit right there. :D

[Lyanna Stark]

[quote]Why is it an assumption? Because presumably it's based on a lot of personal experience. And again, it wasn't my assumption - it was Lyanna's. She was saying that there were two kinds of 'bad' women out there - women that try and belittle each other to get a leg up (especially for male attention) and women that hang out with guys.[/quote]

I never EVER said anything about bad women. Please don't put that word in my mouth. I'm sorry, but it really offends me and carries a lot of "moral" overtones of judging other women as "bad" or insufficient. It's not at all what it is about.

My main concern is that why are women doing this and can we get women, as a group, to recognise that it is a crappy behaviour both for themselves and other women. It's not about placing blame on somebody, it's about how change can happen, and through what means. It is about empowering women to not have to engage in this type of behaviour and feel strong enough in themselves to not have to try and pretend to be men, or suck up to men.



[quote]1. I am really uncomfortable with an undercurrent in the direction that this dicussion is flowing. There's a slight tone of "other women are the problem." It's not intentional, but I see it there.[/quote]

Please see response to kalbear above. It really isn't about that. Placing blame is not useful and not right. What we are looking at are ways to recognise and change a type of behaviour that is not helpful, and often harmful which also perpetrates the often cited "women are bitches to eachother". (Isn't that just a revolting sentiment? I think so at least. It makes me sad.)

[Eponine]

[quote name='Kalbear' post='1738618' date='Mar 30 2009, 12.19']Why is it an assumption? Because presumably it's based on a lot of personal experience. And again, it wasn't my assumption - it was Lyanna's. She was saying that there were two kinds of 'bad' women out there - women that try and belittle each other to get a leg up (especially for male attention) and women that hang out with guys.[/quote]

Not sure I want to get into the personal experience and stereotyping discussion.

However, I think that you're greatly oversimplifying what Lyanna was saying- I'm sure she'll clarify. It's not bad to hang out with guys. It's sexist to pretend like you're superior *because* you hang out with guys, like you're special and better than other women because guys accept you as one of them.

To add to what I said about assumptions of female friendship, I also feel that there's a (often self-imposed) belief that female friendships are based around emotional connection and personal conversation, sharing of secrets and so forth. It seems to me like most movies and media about women portray this. I haven't seen nearly this kind of bitchiness in groups that are centered around a common interest or common goal instead of having a focus of "being friends".

[Eponine]

[quote name='Zabzy' post='1738627' date='Mar 30 2009, 12.24']1. I am really uncomfortable with an undercurrent in the direction that this dicussion is flowing. There's a slight tone of "other women are the problem." It's not intentional, but I see it there.[/quote]

I think it's worth setting aside the idea that men are always the cause of all problems in sexism and looking at how we contribute to our own problems and societal problems. That doesn't mean putting all the blame or fault finding on women, but it's not helpful to be too afraid to look at our own behavior because we don't want to blame the victim.

[Kalbear]

[quote]I never EVER said anything about bad women. Please don't put that word in my mouth. I'm sorry, but it really offends me and carries a lot of "moral" overtones of judging other women as "bad" or insufficient. It's not at all what it is about.[/quote]
Lyanna, this is what you said:
[quote]1. Is the typical "Oh I have only male friends and only male interests. I drink beer with the guys and am one of them, while I just don't get on with women."

2. The femme fatale who tries to out-maneuever you by using flirting, sex or any other old fashioned womanly wiles she can think of.


Both types make me roll my eyes. I'm sure many women will nod in recognition at the descriptions. While type 1 isn't directly out to "blow out another woman's candle", (while type 2 obviously does) her actions and influences can still be quite insidious.[/quote]Is 'insidious' a particularly positive word? Is the phrase 'blowing out your candle to make hers burn brighter' a particularly positive trait? So no, you never said 'bad'.

You just really implied it heavily.

[quote]My main concern is that why are women doing this and can we get women, as a group, to recognise that it is a crappy behaviour both for themselves and other women. It's not about placing blame on somebody, it's about how change can happen, and through what means. It is about empowering women to not have to engage in this type of behaviour and feel strong enough in themselves to not have to try and pretend to be men, or suck up to men.[/quote]Why are you trying to get women to not do what they enjoy? If some women enjoy being friends with men more than women, why is that at all a problem? You're saying simultaneously that it's a crappy behavior but you're not assigning blame? Saying it's a crappy behavior automatically assigns blame on the person whose behavior you're maligning.

Do you really think that a woman who doesn't get along as well with other women as she does men is sucking up to men or pretending to be a man? Heck, [i]what's wrong with pretending to be a man?[/i]

[quote]However, I think that you're greatly oversimplifying what Lyanna was saying- I'm sure she'll clarify. It's not bad to hang out with guys. It's sexist to pretend like you're superior *because* you hang out with guys, like you're special and better than other women because guys accept you as one of them.[/quote]If that's what she actually meant, she didn't actually say it. And with her response above, it really doesn't sound like she's implying that at all.

[Stego]

[quote name='Eponine' post='1738646' date='Mar 30 2009, 12.38']but it's not helpful to be too afraid to look at our own behavior because we don't want to [b]blame the victim[/b].[/quote]


Do you think sexism's only victims are female?

[kungtotte]

[quote name='Eponine' post='1738646' date='Mar 30 2009, 18.38']I think it's worth setting aside the idea that men are always the cause of all problems in sexism and looking at how we contribute to our own problems and societal problems. That doesn't mean putting all the blame or fault finding on women, but it's not helpful to be too afraid to look at our own behavior because we don't want to blame the victim.[/quote]
I think it's worth giving up the idea of assigning blame and focus all attentions on finding things that people need to change about themselves or their environment to promote equality.

It's not really useful to find out whose fault it is, what is useful is finding out who can [i]fix it[/i].

[Mlle. Zabzie]

[quote name='Eponine' post='1738646' date='Mar 30 2009, 12.38']I think it's worth setting aside the idea that men are always the cause of all problems in sexism and looking at how we contribute to our own problems and societal problems. That doesn't mean putting all the blame or fault finding on women, but it's not helpful to be too afraid to look at our own behavior because we don't want to blame the victim.[/quote]

I certainly was not saying the men alone are the problem. But there was a drift in the discussion that was doing exactly what the discussion was purporting to rail against - that is there is, at least IMO, an implied judgement against women who choose to act in certain ways. I find myself agreeing with a lot of Kalbear's last post. I feel like the discussion is pigeonholing women into groups "for" and groups "against" whatever the proposition of "correct" feminist behavior is. I don't have the right answers to how to fix gender inequities in our society. However, if getting hair extensions and a boob job makes a woman feel powerful and happy, she should go for it (stupid example, but you get what I mean, I hope).

ETA: Further to Stego's point: My firm has a women's group (sponsored by the firm). It's a very good thing. However, I've been a strong proponent of inviting men in the firm to our events. It's not an "us-them" thing.

[TerraPrime]

Re: Kalbear

[quote name='Kalbear' post='1738654' date='Mar 30 2009, 11.43']Why are you trying to get women to not do what they enjoy? If some women enjoy being friends with men more than women, why is that at all a problem? You're saying simultaneously that it's a crappy behavior but you're not assigning blame? Saying it's a crappy behavior automatically assigns blame on the person whose behavior you're maligning.[/quote]

Some of the things that we might enjoy doing can have roots in sexism, classism, or other types of unsavory social biases. It's not that no women should enjoy hanging out with men socially more than they do with women, but it's worth recognizing that the motivation underlying that preference [b]can[/b] be a result of internalized sexism.


[quote]Do you really think that a woman who doesn't get along as well with other women as she does men is sucking up to men or pretending to be a man? Heck, [i]what's wrong with pretending to be a man?[/i][/quote]

Some are, no doubt, and most aren't.

There's nothing wrong with pretending to be a man, if that's what you identify with, unless, of course, you identify more with men as a result of the subconscious gender bias of believing that men are superior to women.

[Guest Raidne]

[quote name='Zabzy' post='1738627' date='Mar 30 2009, 12.24']2. I have both male and female friends. I have honestly had many more angst-ridden conversations about the opposite sex (happens to be in those cases) with my male friends. I don't know what that says about me or my male friends, but I want to point out that the confusion inspired by love and romance is a universal HUMAN problem. I realized at some point that what seems fairly trivial to me (e.g., love interest of the month) can be all consuming for the friend and that just as I am willing to help the friend work through their obsession, they are equally willing to spend time listening to my pedestrian obsessions. I have this small feeling that the thread is being a little harder on women for the same behavior.[/quote]

I have had long angst-ridden conversations with men as well, but it's more like "hey, my girlfriend of two years dumped me and I need to talk to someone" not like "Crisis! The guy I hooked up with yesterday still hasn't called me!"

And of course, the majority of my female friends don't do this. It's just that of my friends that do, [i]all[/i] of them are female. Of my friends that act helpless, [i]all[/i] of them are female.

This may be amusing to some people on the board, but I do not expect my friends to devote much time to listening to my little pedestrian obsessions. Perhaps this is why I'm prone to venting them here.

So, this is an issue for me. YMMV.

[Eponine]

[quote name='Stego' post='1738655' date='Mar 30 2009, 12.44']Do you think sexism's only victims are female?[/quote]

No, didn't say I did.

[Kalbear]

[quote name='TerraPrime' post='1738675' date='Mar 30 2009, 10.03']Re: Kalbear



Some of the things that we might enjoy doing can have roots in sexism, classism, or other types of unsavory social biases. It's not that no women should enjoy hanging out with men socially more than they do with women, but it's worth recognizing that the motivation underlying that preference [b]can[/b] be a result of internalized sexism.[/quote]Sure, and that's worth visiting. But saying that it's always that case, and not recognizing it as a valid means of expression? That's bullshit.



[quote]Some are, no doubt, and most aren't.

There's nothing wrong with pretending to be a man, if that's what you identify with, unless, of course, you identify more with men as a result of the subconscious gender bias of believing that men are superior to women.[/quote]Right - but this is also akin to allowing women to be housewives if they want to...and then wondering whether or not they're doing it because of subconscious gender bias or because they genuinely enjoy staying at home, raising kids and keeping a good house. And regardless of whether or not it's the former or the latter, if you ask them chances are they'll say the same thing.

I guess I'm saying that it's worthwhile to examine why women might choose to be friends with men over women, but it's not good to condemn women who do so.

[Guest Raidne]

For my part, I think it's weird when [i]anyone[/i] of either sex/gender doesn't have friends of both sexes. Not that it means the same thing in every case or anything, but I'm then looking for some kind of explanation.

[Eponine]

[quote name='Zabzy' post='1738673' date='Mar 30 2009, 13.01']I certainly was not saying the men alone are the problem. But there was a drift in the discussion that was doing exactly what the discussion was purporting to rail against - that is there is, at least IMO, an implied judgement against women who choose to act in certain ways. I find myself agreeing with a lot of Kalbear's last post. I feel like the discussion is pigeonholing women into groups "for" and groups "against" whatever the proposition of "correct" feminist behavior is. I don't have the right answers to how to fix gender inequities in our society. However, if getting hair extensions and a boob job makes a woman feel powerful and happy, she should go for it (stupid example, but you get what I mean, I hope).[/quote]

I think that for the most part, we tried to qualify what we were saying to only condemn those with directly sexist motives (wanting to be one of the guys because one thinks that being like a man is BETTER than being like a woman). I agree with your point that we have to be careful about telling people how they should behave. It's like the difference between telling a woman that she shouldn't get a boob job if she wants to be a real feminist, and examining the reasons why a woman might want a boob job and discussing whether there are motives that we don't think are healthy (maybe not for society, but for ourselves).

[Eponine]

[quote name='Kalbear' post='1738686' date='Mar 30 2009, 13.11']Right - but this is also akin to allowing women to be housewives if they want to...and then wondering whether or not they're doing it because of subconscious gender bias or because they genuinely enjoy staying at home, raising kids and keeping a good house. And regardless of whether or not it's the former or the latter, if you ask them chances are they'll say the same thing.[/quote]

It's a hard subject to deal with.

I grew up in an environment where I was strongly pushed toward becoming a housewife. There were times when I gave in to some expectations, and I wasn't always made miserable by doing so. Maybe if I'd given in even more, I'd be happy keeping house right now. Eh, highly doubtful, but there's no way of really knowing. That didn't make it alright that others, including other women, tried to keep me from having a choice. Even if it had been more subtle, more subconscious, it still wouldn't have been ok.

[The Pita]

[quote name='Raidne' post='1738311' date='Mar 30 2009, 08.05']At the highest levels, we couldn't have Hillary Clinton running for President, and at more everyday levels, women wouldn't be seen at so many levels of management.[/quote]
This is bull.
We had a woman and a black guy running for president. If Hillary had won, we'd have people claiming that only white folks can be president.

Additionally, sexism goes both ways.
Feminism is a great approach that says that everyone is equal, at least as far as sex is considered.
It's being perverted into meaning: Men suck because they oppress women.
I will not deny that being a woman is harder than being a man, partly due to stereotypes. I will say that there are stereotypes for both sides.
Also, I have only male close friends. This is because I'm male, definitely. I'm too nervous and jittery around women, with a few exceptions. Of those exceptions, I don't consider any close friends, although I am friendly with a few (plug: One of them had a music CD coming out this year. Israelis, buy CDs!).

[Guest Raidne]

[quote name='The Pita Enigma' post='1738719' date='Mar 30 2009, 13.33']This is bull.
We had a woman and a black guy running for president. If Hillary had won, we'd have people claiming that only white folks can be president.[/quote]

I'm not going to go there because we've had that discussion at length in other threads, including administering the IAT to volunteer board members. That's a lot more in-depth than what we're going to get into here.

[quote]Also, I have only male close friends. This is because I'm male, definitely. I'm too nervous and jittery around women, with a few exceptions. Of those exceptions, I don't consider any close friends, although I am friendly with a few (plug: One of them had a music CD coming out this year. Israelis, buy CDs!).[/quote]

And so, I would wonder, if I met you, what was up with you being so jittery around women.

[Starkess]

[quote name='The Pita Enigma' post='1738719' date='Mar 30 2009, 13.33']This is bull.
We had a woman and a black guy running for president. If Hillary had won, we'd have people claiming that only white folks can be president.[/quote]

Huh? My impression from that post was that Raidne was saying female assertiveness IS becoming more accepted, because Hillary was able to make a legitimate run for President. So I don't really understand what your point here is?

[Kalbear]

[quote]Eh, highly doubtful, but there's no way of really knowing. That didn't make it alright that others, including other women, tried to keep me from having a choice. Even if it had been more subtle, more subconscious, it still wouldn't have been ok.[/quote]I agree.

Which is why I think Lyanna's implication that women liking men more than other women is somehow not okay is a bad thing.

[Mlle. Zabzie]

Whether a woman (or man) stays home with kids or remains in the workforce has all kinds of social baggage tied up with it. Tied up in the whole dicussion of "housewivery" is an undercurrent [I like that word today] of judgement against (from a feminist perspective) women who choose to stay at home. I understand and acknowledge the baggage, but it's a shame because the judgment itself contains within it an implied judgement that the work itself is not as valuable as the work being done by that person in the workforce. This is another place where I don't have the right answers. I work. If I ever manage to have children, I currently anticipate continuing to work (come back to me if I have multiples). My friends (all with big fancy degrees and careers like me) have made different choices. It's hard for me to pass judgement on those choices from a feminist perspective.