CiaranAnnrach Posted April 17, 2009 Share Posted April 17, 2009 Hey! No laughing at me, Eponine! Even if I am wrong! (Loathe as I am to admit it.) [quote name='Eponine' post='1758381' date='Apr 17 2009, 12.32']It's kind of hard to explain, but it's definitely the first thing I think of when I hear the word courting. Go google "I kissed dating goodbye".[/quote] Researching your suggestion now. I'll make a more substantial post in a bit, but a bit of a preview - after reading your post, (and I do understand what you're trying to say,) I'm beginning to think that I've got a completely different definition for "courtship", which may be a more modern interpretation, or just a completely wrong interpretation. Anyhow, less posting and more research. I'll get back to you. [Edit] Ok, I don't think my personal definition is necessarily wrong, just a more modern interpretation based on the old system, and perhaps an interpretation unique to myself - a mix of old fashioned ideals with modern beliefs. As for the book you referenced, if I actually read it I've no doubt there would be a handful of things I'd agree with, and a lot more that I don't agree with. From what I've seen that book advocates a more biblical style of courtship which is quite different than my own. I'm not a big fan of that biblical style, for a number of reasons which I won't get into right now for fear of turning this post into an essay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kat Posted April 17, 2009 Share Posted April 17, 2009 [quote name='sio' post='1758061' date='Apr 17 2009, 05.08']Depends on the girl. :)[/quote] No, it does not. Seriously, learn this quickly. If you are working on homework with someone you have romantic intentions for, then you better announce that. And then change venues and activities. I am saying this for everyone's well-being--no one likes to be the homework buddy of a one-sided/secret crush relationship, because then when things go bad, and your secret nerd crush finds out that the only reason you've been collaborating with them is that you have other motives, you might lose your homework buddy. And then no one wins. FFS, it's not that hard to ask someone out for coffee. (By the way, none of this applies if you're working on homework with someone who is your boyfriend/girlfriend already....because it's not too ambiguous.) But really. Don't use some bullshit "we're all nerds and thus can decipher each other's nerdy intentions, and by the way, quantum physics is totally hot," excuse for being too shy to say what you want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eponine Posted April 17, 2009 Share Posted April 17, 2009 [quote name='CiaranAnnrach' post='1758449' date='Apr 17 2009, 14.37']I'm beginning to think that I've got a completely different definition for "courtship", which may be a more modern interpretation, or just a completely wrong interpretation.[/quote] I don't think that you're wrong, was just commenting on how again, words about relationships can mean different things to different people. Anyway I think the theory behind the Christian courtship movement is a lot more sound than what actually happens when you try to apply it to real people, and have kids already thinking a lot (too much?) about marriage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CiaranAnnrach Posted April 17, 2009 Share Posted April 17, 2009 [quote name='Eponine' post='1758503' date='Apr 17 2009, 14.28']I don't think that you're wrong, was just commenting on how again, words about relationships can mean different things to different people.[/quote] Fair enough. Though, my interpretation of how courtship worked in the medieval times was wrong, or at least not quite complete. That much I'll own up to. [quote]Anyway I think the theory behind the Christian courtship movement is a lot more sound than what actually happens when you try to apply it to real people, and have kids already thinking a lot (too much?) about marriage.[/quote] I can buy that. And I definitely agree that kids think way too much about marriage and the entire process in general. It's a pity the whole dating process is such a trial-and-error, happiness/pleasure/pain/recovery roller coaster in general. I know too many people who have been seriously hurt due to relationships, and it pains me to see them suffer because the person they were with was "only looking for a good time" and was misleading them the entire time. Perhaps that's what the Christian courtship is meant to help, intentional or otherwise, perhaps not - I couldn't say without actually reading the book and seeing how it'd work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maithanet Posted April 17, 2009 Share Posted April 17, 2009 [quote name='Greywolf2375' post='1758263' date='Apr 17 2009, 11.41']scam: a person maneuvering him/herself to be near a particular person s/he is attracted to in order to get the others attention to set up the potential of a date "Dianne Court is going to be at the mall Saturday? Oh, I gotta get there and see if I can catch up with her at the food court..."[/quote] Do you always hide Say Anything... references in your posts? Tricksy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shryke Posted April 17, 2009 Share Posted April 17, 2009 [quote name='Eponine' post='1758503' date='Apr 17 2009, 15.28']I don't think that you're wrong, was just commenting on how again, words about relationships can mean different things to different people. Anyway I think the theory behind the Christian courtship movement is a lot more sound than what actually happens when you try to apply it to real people, and have kids already thinking a lot (too much?) about marriage.[/quote] The "theory" is the same one as that behind Purity Balls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elrostar Posted April 17, 2009 Share Posted April 17, 2009 [quote name='Shryke' post='1758521' date='Apr 17 2009, 15.45']The "theory" is the same one as that behind Purity Balls.[/quote] When I first heard about Purity Balls I thought they were a joke. I really didn't think they could be for real. Then I found out that they were and I was really really scared and disturbed. That whole movement is just so [i]wrong[/i]. Not just the whole idea of women being some kind of commodity that needs to be protected and kept pure until it's handed over from the father to the husband, but in so many other ways. There's something so fantastically wrong with the phrase "What more comfort and love can a teenage girl want for than what she can find in her father's lap?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CiaranAnnrach Posted April 17, 2009 Share Posted April 17, 2009 [quote name='Shryke' post='1758521' date='Apr 17 2009, 14.45']The "theory" is the same one as that behind Purity Balls.[/quote] That whole Purity Ball thing is, I'm gonna be honest, kinda creepy. It feels too much like the father is brow-beating his daughter into making a decision which may or may not necessarily be hers. Or at least that's what I expect is more or less the norm. While I'm sure the intent of the ball is good, and on paper it looks good, it just...idk, bothers me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eponine Posted April 17, 2009 Share Posted April 17, 2009 [quote name='Shryke' post='1758521' date='Apr 17 2009, 15.45']The "theory" is the same one as that behind Purity Balls.[/quote] There's a little more to it than that. It's not just about protecting teenagers from their own sexuality (although that's certainly one part of it), but also, like Ciaran mentioned, a well intentioned attempt to cut down on the trial and error, being dumped like a piece of trash, being led on, and the bad stuff that's a legit risk of dating. The problem is that it hurts just as much if not more to break off a relationship that was seen as being on the fast track to marriage. It's even worse if the other partner is basically a good, nice person- just not right for you. In Christian school, we were told about the triangle model of relationships- with God at the top and the two people on the bottom vertices. The closer you got to God, the closer you were also getting to your partner. There was a clear implication that if a relationship wasn't working out, it was because the people in it weren't close enough to God. That's how 16 year olds get too screwed up mentally to even break off a non-marital relationship that isn't working out for them. This isn't something I have general evidence for, but I've heard an awful lot of male Christian leaders and teachers claim that they saw their future wife, knew right away that she was the one God had for them, and then pursued her until she said yes. On the much, much more creepy side that I haven't experienced about first-hand, there are accounts of young men who corresponded extensively sometimes for months with the father of a girl they were interested in (but hardly knew) until the father approved. Then the girl was informed that her father had picked a suitor for her. Hell, now that I think about it, that's virtually what happened with my ex-SIL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CiaranAnnrach Posted April 17, 2009 Share Posted April 17, 2009 [quote name='Eponine' post='1758579' date='Apr 17 2009, 15.24']The problem is that it hurts just as much if not more to break off a relationship that was seen as being on the fast track to marriage. It's even worse if the other partner is basically a good, nice person- just not right for you. In Christian school, we were told about the triangle model of relationships- with God at the top and the two people on the bottom vertices. The closer you got to God, the closer you were also getting to your partner. There was a clear implication that if a relationship wasn't working out, it was because the people in it weren't close enough to God. That's how 16 year olds get too screwed up mentally to even break off a non-marital relationship that isn't working out for them.[/quote] I suppose, if both the girl and guy were [i]perfect[/i] Christians, then it doesn't matter who they are past that - the triangle model fits. The problem is, [i]nobody[/i] is a perfect Christian, especially when they are growing up, but everyone seems to expect them to be anyways. The result is that the entire system doesn't work because it's based on an ideal, impossible situation. Otherwise, there would be more worked into the system than just "find God." And worse is when people tell you that it's God's will that you're with someone. Which, that is almost even more inherently flawed, because nobody can know God's will. But everyone loves saying and thinking it anyways, which only puts more pressure on teenagers. [quote name='Eponine' post='1758579' date='Apr 17 2009, 15.24']On the much, much more creepy side that I haven't experienced about first-hand, there are accounts of young men who corresponded extensively sometimes for months with the father of a girl they were interested in (but hardly knew) until the father approved. Then the girl was informed that her father had picked a suitor for her. Hell, now that I think about it, that's virtually what happened with my ex-SIL.[/quote] That's one of my biggest gripes about the courtship bit, and how it was handled. The overemphasis on having the families approval. I mean, don't get me wrong, should I ever marry I have every intention of asking permission from the girl's parents first, out of respect for her parents. And I do think it's important to have a good relationship with your SO's family. But if they say no? Well, I'm still going to ask her, because ultimately it's [i]her[/i] choice, not theirs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Raidne Posted April 17, 2009 Share Posted April 17, 2009 [quote name='Kat' post='1757871' date='Apr 16 2009, 23.44']That is [i]not[/i] simple English. :P "-ing" implies a continuous process.If you just went on one date with someone, it is a single event. As soon as you make a habit of it, that is "dating". But if I just went on one date, and then decided I didn't like them, how am I "dating" them? :unsure:[/quote] :owned: Excellent point. You are right, I am wrong. How often does that happen around here? My brain is apparently turning to mush. But if there are two or more dates, I maintain that "dating" is occurring. Unless there's never another date - then you'll find out eventually that you "were dating" someone. I still maintain that dating does not imply exclusivity, but merely the continuing act of going on dates with the possibility of future penis/vag sightings (or sometimes concurrent with sightings of the same). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CiaranAnnrach Posted April 17, 2009 Share Posted April 17, 2009 [quote name='Raidne' post='1758637' date='Apr 17 2009, 16.09']I still maintain that dating does not imply exclusivity, but merely the continuing act of going on dates with the possibility of future penis/vag sightings (or sometimes concurrent with sightings of the same).[/quote] So, say I'm seeing this girl regularly in a mix of prearranged and spontaneous meetings. In each of these meetings we pursue each other with a romantic intent. However, she's a die-hard Christian who firmly believes in abstinence, and I have no intention of causing her to break her moral code in the off chance it doesn't work out. (AKA no possibility of vag sightings.) Are we dating? [Edit] Aside from that, I agree with your statement that dating != exclusivity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Raidne Posted April 17, 2009 Share Posted April 17, 2009 CA - no problem there, because she's hoping to see your penis after you get married. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delete this account pls Posted April 17, 2009 Share Posted April 17, 2009 Wait, this entire thread was a veiled attack on Jacen? I reverse my position. I'm with Raidne on this, 100%. [quote name='Seventh Pup' post='1757936' date='Apr 17 2009, 15.56']Your on notice Limey. :pirate: This war needs to be fought and you need to think long and hard what side you want to be on. The Word is evil and most be destroyed.[/quote] Jac, you need to chillax, srsly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ormond Posted April 17, 2009 Share Posted April 17, 2009 [quote name='Eponine' post='1758579' date='Apr 17 2009, 15.24']In Christian school, we were told about the triangle model of relationships- with God at the top and the two people on the bottom vertices. The closer you got to God, the closer you were also getting to your partner. There was a clear implication that if a relationship wasn't working out, it was because the people in it weren't close enough to God. That's how 16 year olds get too screwed up mentally to even break off a non-marital relationship that isn't working out for them. This isn't something I have general evidence for, but I've heard an awful lot of male Christian leaders and teachers claim that they saw their future wife, knew right away that she was the one God had for them, and then pursued her until she said yes. On the much, much more creepy side that I haven't experienced about first-hand, there are accounts of young men who corresponded extensively sometimes for months with the father of a girl they were interested in (but hardly knew) until the father approved. Then the girl was informed that her father had picked a suitor for her. Hell, now that I think about it, that's virtually what happened with my ex-SIL.[/quote] Thanks for sharing this. I had no idea that was a common subject of instruction in "Christian" schools. I happen to think that the general American culture does put too much pressure on younger teenagers to get into romantic or sexual relationships before they are mature enough to be ready for them. But the sort of attitudes you describe above would go along way to explaining why fundamentalist Protestants in the USA actually have a higher divorce rate than more "liberal" Protestants or unbelievers do. It certainly must contribute to people getting married when they are way too young and before they know what sort of person they are really going to be compatible with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord O' Bones Posted April 17, 2009 Share Posted April 17, 2009 [quote name='Arbor Gold' post='1758445' date='Apr 17 2009, 11.32']Nobody actually talks about the books at BwB get togethers. Do they?[/quote] Well, there's always like, a half an hour, but maybe that always happens when you're outside, uh, smoking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord of Oop North Posted April 17, 2009 Share Posted April 17, 2009 [quote name='Seventh Pup' post='1757936' date='Apr 17 2009, 01.56']Your on notice Limey. :pirate: This war needs to be fought and you need to think long and hard what side you want to be on. The Word is evil and most be destroyed.[/quote] I will be on the side that continues to chillax with their bitches. Word. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hereward Posted April 18, 2009 Share Posted April 18, 2009 Well, there's always like, a half an hour, but maybe that always happens when you're outside, uh, smoking.There are books? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Raidne Posted April 19, 2009 Share Posted April 19, 2009 My banner ad for this thread is "Meet Christian Singles." :lol:I limit my book talking at BwB events to bashing Bakker. And, well, maybe asking if anyone knows why LF wants those damn tapestries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gryphon strike Posted April 19, 2009 Share Posted April 19, 2009 I don't think that you're wrong, was just commenting on how again, words about relationships can mean different things to different people.Anyway I think the theory behind the Christian courtship movement is a lot more sound than what actually happens when you try to apply it to real people, and have kids already thinking a lot (too much?) about marriage.I have to agree with you. Though to me courting has always meant dating with intent to marry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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