What will never happen

[shadow catlady]

I like the whole downfall of the monarchy idea, too.

There are slim possibilities, too, when you consider some of the potential heroes/ heroines: Dany freeing slaves and caring for the old and weak in the khalasar remnants, Tyrion with his soft spot for cripples and bastards, Jon commanding the NW and slumming it with Pyp and Grenn and all those non-kneelers, Arya also hanging with the non-nobility like Lommy Greenhands and Anguy the Archer, now swearing in Braavosi with other interesting dirt-bags. Davos has been mentioned. Even Jaime is more of a fan of soldiers than court followers.

I'm holding out some hope for the common folk, though still prepared to see that crushed in the end.

Edit: I forgot to mention whatever Rickon's doing all this time, with wild Osha and wild Shaggydog. Though he might be too young to play much of an influential role when winter and the dragons come.

[Spring Bass]

I second the Jon-Sansa reunion.

I'd also like to see Jon nail Melisandre and Dany, since it would give him a trend of fire-themed women as lovers.

[Liadin]

I like the whole downfall of the monarchy idea, too.

There are slim possibilities, too, when you consider some of the potential heroes/ heroines: Dany freeing slaves and caring for the old and weak in the khalasar remnants, Tyrion with his soft spot for cripples and bastards, Jon commanding the NW and slumming it with Pyp and Grenn and all those non-kneelers, Arya also hanging with the non-nobility like Lommy Greenhands and Anguy the Archer, now swearing in Braavosi with other interesting dirt-bags. Davos has been mentioned. Even Jaime is more of a fan of soldiers than court followers.

I'm holding out some hope for the common folk, though still prepared to see that crushed in the end.

You actually have me thinking this might be possible.

Although, it wouldn't surprise me if GRRM is just doing what every other fantasy author does, trying to show that his heroes aren't elitist on a personal level, but without having anybody think seriously about making major changes in the system. (And I suppose it's fair enough, in the real world this transition took centuries...)

At any rate, yeah, keeping my fingers crossed. It would be awesome to see a fantasy that actually repudiates monarchy (which I kinda feel like the early books did just by having no "perfect king" to solve all problems, but that's not quite the same).

[baxus]

R+L=J

i doubt GRRM will put that in his books, even if he originally planned to...

with all the speculation about it, it wouldn't have the effect it was supposed to have on readers...

[Toe]

I doubt that a democracy where most the population are illiterate peasants, most getting their information about the world outside their village largely from the propaganda sermons by their lords and their priests, will work. At least it has never worked historically for any length of time. Stable democracies with widespread suffrage only appear with an educated population in relatively wealthy societies.

[Lummel]

No need to be so pessimistic - you have pretty much just described India or nineteenth centry France. How about Medieval Iceland or the peasant republic of Dithmarschen, or Athens in ancient Greece, largely illiterate societies, no modern media but they managed to form self governing societies. Iceland managed for three hundred years before the kings of Norway took over which is pretty good going.

[Alexia]

Democracy has to start somewhere. IIRC, only educated landowners were allowed to vote when the U.S. became an independent country. I, at least, am not advocating for direct democracy but someone who at least pretends to speak for the smallfolk (and who is not advocating for theocracy) would be nice.

When Catelyn was advocating a vote on who becomes king I am pretty sure she wasn't expecting the peasants to vote too. When the system is set up, the peasants can start muscling their way in.

[Toe]

No need to be so pessimistic - you have pretty much just described India or nineteenth centry France. How about Medieval Iceland or the peasant republic of Dithmarschen, or Athens in ancient Greece, largely illiterate societies, no modern media but they managed to form self governing societies. Iceland managed for three hundred years before the kings of Norway took over which is pretty good going.

Athens - Slaves and the large foreign population excluded. Only a minority of the males could vote. In a city where information could easily spread to all voters. Many similar early examples, as you mention, but only involves small number of voters, an elite, comparatively wealthy minority of the population, who could easily gather and share information.

Nineteenth cenutry France did not get a stable democracy until after 1871.

India is more interesting but since it is in modern times information could be spread by radio, television, phones and other modern methods also to illiterates. Also various other technologies such as railways makes it easier for candidates to travel or organize elections.

First industrial revolution, then widespread democracy.

Not to say that not also an elite oligocracy is better than an autocracy. Athens, Rome, early parliamentary England, Holland, Venice, Switzerland and others were all states in some ways better than their contemporary alternatives.

[nige4c]

I'd like to see the Wall attacked by a chicken that is not a chicken

something tells me that won't happen though

[hnv]

stannis to be king

danny to be dead (ohh please make that happen)

and rickon to be king of the north

[Alexia]

stannis to be king

danny to be dead (ohh please make that happen)

and rickon to be king of the north

Stannis as King on the Iron Throne and Rickon as King of the North isn't going work out very well. Stannis had Robb Stark cursed for claiming to be King of the North, which resulted in the Red Wedding. I shiver with fear for Rickon in this scenario. :o

[Liadin]

I agree that Westeros is unlikely to go suddenly from monarchy to direct democracy, given that it's a huge country without much democratic tradition, etc., but that doesn't mean it can't take the first steps. It has to develop somehow, and yes, better education would certainly have to go along with that.

It would be pretty awesome if it happened.

Rickon is going to have a hard time being king unless we skip a lot of time though. He's still, what, 5? Anyway, what about Bran? I'd rather see him in that position and Rickon as his heir (that's if we're assuming Bran can't have kids of his own).

[The Boar of Gore]

They would need a Parliament first of all. All they have now is the Small Council and the Great Council. Have a Parliament with representatives elected from the burgher class and the lesser gentry and then you have a basis for change.

GRRM even sort of hints at the economic pressures toward democracy. It's clear that only Littlefinger knows how to raise enough revenues to support the monarchy. He's a bit like Thomas Wolsey and later Thomas Cranmer to Henry VIII. And LF is from the lesser gentry himself, not too far removed from the merchant classes. Without a genius like LF, perhaps the monarchy would need a Parliament in order to raise taxes.

What I mean is LF relies on keeping the credit flowing. He needs loans from the merchant class, and they give them to him because they know he knows how to juggle coin. They might not be so cooperative with your typical thickheaded arrogant noble in charge - they might insist on having a voice in decision making. It follows that if they're granted a voice, the minor nobility and the clergy will demand a voice too - they too have plenty of reason for dissatisfaction with the way the realm is being run. All it takes is someone in one of the Great Houses to back the idea, as Simon de Montfort did, and you soon have an institution called Parliament.

From there it's still a long way to granting the Smallfolk a vote but it's a first step toward democracy.

Not that I think it's really going to happen in Westeros.

[Stevewpg]

I hope that Arya punishes everyone.

[Darzin]

I want to see Euron Geyjoy on the Iron Throne, he's an afficial claimaint ya know, which is not talked about alot. I don't even care if he wins I just feel it would be carzy and interesting if he rukes Westros for a bit. I doubt it will happen but maybe it could if he steals a Dragon from Dany.

[Mad Monkey]

Cersei: I was wrong.

Littlefinger: Damn, I didn't plan on that happening!

Varys: I don't know what's happening in King's Landing.

Sansa Stark (AGOT): I don't trust you, crazy lady who kidnapped my dad.

Qyburn: I would love to help you with that, Cersei, but that would require me to violate my professional code of ethics. I apologize.

Lord Frey: Oh, don't worry about it. I'm not offended; it's really not a big deal.

Samwell Tarly: Hey, this situation doesn't scare me very much!

Lady Stoneheart: You know what? Cut her down, boys. It's unreasonable to execute someone for not being able to do something alone that I couldn't do with the entire Army of the North.

... Naah. That'll never happen.

[Jaqen Fett]

I would love to see democracy take hold in Westeros, and I love the Magna Carta references. For that to happen I think whoever comes out on top will have to acknowledge that himself or herself is subject to some overarching law. Martin is big into historical allusions and this outcome would be directly related to Henry I who stated that even the behavior of kings is subject to the law, which in turn led to the barons ganging up and forcing King John to sign the Magna Carta. This could be most easily achieved through Jon, Dany, or Stannis (or some combo) in my opinion because all three have acknowledged laws outside themselves even when they were in positions of power.

In my dream ending, Jon and Dany would get together (too obvious to happen) with Stannis acting as Hand. This set up could allow Stannis to head up some sort of judicial department, and Jon/Dany would let the various regions send representatives to King's Landing to sit on some sort of council.

[Mike]

About ten years ago, somewhere between ACOK and ASOS, I really wanted Arthur Dayne to be alive and hiding out at the Neck. Now, I'd like to see a Dayne (or someone else) make themselves worthy of Dawn and bring back the Sword of the Morning. The latter might very well happen, but there is no chance for the former.

I also want The Hound to be Azor Ahai, or at least some aspect of that legend (as in, many characters could have contributed to the composite "hero" of that age).

[Datepalm]

I want neither Jon nor Dany to turn out to be the heroes of the story.

Yeah, though I don't think thats that far fetched. I also was Jon, after he's married Dany (assuming that happens) or whatnot, to miss Yigritte.

Re- democracy - I have a hard time seeing that happening, though it would make me happy, but short of that i'd kind of like to see the dissolution of the seven kingdoms as ruled by the Iron Throne. (The targaryens are nothing but a pack of damn crusader imperialists anyway that won't even intermarry with the locals if they can avoid it!)

[MLF]

Great thread topic. I want to see none of the Stark siblings turn against one another, but alas, I don't think it will happen, that they won't, which is to say I think they will. (My guess would be Jon and Arya.)