Lost Season 6 thread

[Demonblade]

Continue.

[marwyn]

Continue.

So yeah... Vincent.

Wonder where and when he'll show up again? :o

[ztemhead]

funny it should hit 400 posts right before my final rant.

Okay, that's it. Today is the day I'm done with Lost. To pinpoint the exact moment, it's when Michael comes back and Hugo asks, "Why should I trust you? You murdered Anna Lucia and Libby." and Michael says, "That doesn't matter right now." I just don't care what his explanation is. His whole storyline is rendered meaningless by his return to the Island. He's not a complicated guy who made difficult choices, he's just an asshole.

I just can't go on. The writers are throwing so much crap against the wall and trying to see if some of it is going to stick. It's lazy, undisciplined story telling with none of the OH WOW moments that made the series so great early on.

Furthermore, at this point I hate so many of the characters, waiting for scenes with the ones I do like is like wading through miles of sewer in order to get to a nice clean lake. I feel like I'm covered in all that shit the writers have thrown against the wall. I don't need to see how it ends anymore because I don't care. I'm going to pretend the series ended with the season opener, everybody on a plane, nice and happy, and with no knowledge of who everyone else is.

If, however, either-timeline Kate dies in an especially gruesome fashion, someone please send me a PM. ;)

[Starkess]

Aw, c'mon, you can't stick it out for 5 more episodes??

[Kalbear]

You have the answer right there. She knows what happens in both timelines, which is why she didn't need to steer her son toward physics in the alternate timeline. He succeeded in negating the Incident, so he doesn't have to grow up to be a physicist. Of course (and I'll keep repeating this until you'll finally understand), that is not supposed to happen which is why there is such a problem. She doesn't give a fuck because in this timeline her son is still alive. She cheated fate, but you can't cheat fate, at least in the Lost world because whatever happens, happened.

Okay, step back a bit.

Let's assume that Eloise knows everything she knows because Faraday wrote it in the journal. That's the only source of her knowledge. However, that journal doesn't have everything. And among other things, it almost certainly doesn't have any information about the island sinking. Faraday didn't know about the island until being recruited by Widmore, and the only information about when the island existed that Faraday had was in 2004 (when he first got there) and 1974 (when he went back). That's it. Maybe he got some information that Widmore had when he was with Dharma. But again, very old information.

So Jughead blows up, and the island sinks. Going away from the notion that she'd know the island sank because she was on it (try and think about that for one second to see why that sounds a bit odd), the journal almost certainly has nothing about what the island was like between 1977 and 2004. Now, we know that the island can move. And Widmore knew this too. Eloise almost certainly knew about this and the donkey wheel.

So now in the alternate world, Eloise knows the island sinks. But how can she know that the island isn't going to come back? She has no way of knowing whether or not time has been altered at this point. From her perspective nothing has changed. Faraday's still dead. She still has the journal. The island's gone, but she knows from Faraday's journal that she leaves the island at some point anyway. And if she doesn't know the island is or isn't going to come back, how can she change her mind to not give Faraday the physics treatment?

You have the answer right there. She knows what happens in both timelines, which is why she didn't need to steer her son toward physics in the alternate timeline.

Okay, how does she know what happens in both timelines? The theory was that she knew (sorta) what would happen in the original timeline because of the journal. Are you suggesting that the journal also contains the history of what happens in the alternate timeline? And that Faraday wrote this down and gave it to her? Because that's way more farfetched than what I suggested.

According to your theory, she has the journal. That only records the main timeline. That means that from her perspective, as long as she has the journal and things aren't in there everything is happening the same way. Which is why it doesn't make sense that she would do two different things given the same information (the journal).

I guess an easy way to boil it down is this: the reason she pushed Faraday to physics is because of his journal.

In the altverse he is not pushed to physics.

Therefore, Eloise does not have the journal.

Because it's more convoluted and doesn't follow with the main themes of Lost.

Wait - you're saying that because it's convoluted it doesn't belong on Lost? Hah.

One of the main themes in Lost is love. A second is trying to fix what you can't. I'm not sure how Eloise knowing about the alt/real verses and trying desperately to save her doomed son from a horrible fate isn't a Lostian type of thing.

Uh, because she was still on the island right after Juliette hit the bomb, maybe?

So you're suggesting that the island sank right away, then? How did the Others get off the island? We know of exactly one submarine - and that submarine was mostly populated by Dharma folks, right (the ones that Chang got to warn). Are they going to hang out and chill with the Others, or wait until more Others pop on board? I guess you could have her on the last boat out, watching as the island slowly sinks into the water or something. But the implication (to me at least) was that the island sank essentially right as the bomb went off. There was no time to pack off anything - it was just a catastrophic event. And while I can see someone like Pierre and Miles and Ben and his dad making it off, it's much harder for me to figure the Others leaving.

Tell me how he could have thanked Hurley for something he didn't know he did (and didn't do yet), and not make himself sound like a crazy loon.

I said it upthread. "It's an honor to meet you. I've been waiting a very long time for this". Something simple, a nod and a wink to the audience. That's it.

You'd have to assume that Chang would know about the alt/real timeline divide too if there was a Y; after all, he's guiding the real Miles to another career, lives in the same town as him now, apparently is friendly and helped raise him. So if it's a Y, Chang also knows what happens, including that Miles doesn't really know his dad well or has a shitty relationship with him. Plus, Chang was one of the researchers at Dharma who knew about the anomalies and some of the time jumping wackiness. Would he be able to figure out that the new timeline happened? Not sure. But I think he'd figure that something was fishy about it all.

[TheBigTEA]

I am reading this and soaking everyones theories up and I have one really big nit-pick

It is Arzt. A. R.Z.T.

I know...it is my name too! =P

[Mya Stone]

I am reading this and soaking everyones theories up and I have one really big nit-pick

It is Arzt. A. R.Z.T.

I know...it is my name too! =P

Can I start calling you Leslie, Ty? :P

You guys are all hurting my brain with the timeline debate.

I think the biggest hint was Eloise's brooch in the Desmond-sideways flash.

[TheBigTEA]

I think Leslie is a bitching name Mya....lol

[Caligula_K]

Okay, step back a bit.

Let's assume that Eloise knows everything she knows because Faraday wrote it in the journal. That's the only source of her knowledge. However, that journal doesn't have everything. And among other things, it almost certainly doesn't have any information about the island sinking. Faraday didn't know about the island until being recruited by Widmore, and the only information about when the island existed that Faraday had was in 2004 (when he first got there) and 1974 (when he went back). That's it. Maybe he got some information that Widmore had when he was with Dharma. But again, very old information.

So Jughead blows up, and the island sinks. Going away from the notion that she'd know the island sank because she was on it (try and think about that for one second to see why that sounds a bit odd), the journal almost certainly has nothing about what the island was like between 1977 and 2004. Now, we know that the island can move. And Widmore knew this too. Eloise almost certainly knew about this and the donkey wheel.

So now in the alternate world, Eloise knows the island sinks. But how can she know that the island isn't going to come back? She has no way of knowing whether or not time has been altered at this point. From her perspective nothing has changed. Faraday's still dead. She still has the journal. The island's gone, but she knows from Faraday's journal that she leaves the island at some point anyway. And if she doesn't know the island is or isn't going to come back, how can she change her mind to not give Faraday the physics treatment?

As long as the island sinking doesn't happen in one moment but instead happens gradually (which seems likely based on the fact that the entire Dharma Initiative and Others operation completely evacuated). The island sinking is therefore no doubt very noticeably different from the island disappearing. Daniel Faraday's journal, in his own words, has "everything he's learned about the Dharma initiative," including things like the Incident which happened after he died. So I really don't see why Eloise wouldn't have been able to put two and two together and say, "hey, they said they were trying to change the past with a nuke! Yet the island is sinking, and in their timeline, according to this journal, it still exists. Chances are islands which sink don't randomly start floating. Therefore they changed the past and my son can live! Awesometastic! I will now pamper him to make up for my guilt."

[Kalbear]

But the dharma initiative basically disappears after 1980, when Ben nerve gasses everyone. So...there's not a lot of information available about them. But you might be right.

It still seems a bit odd to me that she'd be so sure that the future was different and know that Faraday didn't have to do the physics in one time, and so sure that he would in the other.

There's another possibility, which is that the timelines don't make a Y - they make an X. The idea being that both timelines are required, and much like Jughead exploding/not, it's crucial that Faraday does or doesn't become a physicist. In the world where he does become one, he goes back in time to stop the incident. In the world where he doesn't become one, he doesn't go back in time and the incident happens. Eloise wasn't pushing him to be a physicist so that time would remain constant and awesome; she was doing so so that he would save himself in another timeline and preserve that part.

Or something.

So, hey, Sun's boobs were pretty nice, yeah? And pity about Ilana's giant chest blowing up, right?

[Mya Stone]

But the dharma initiative basically disappears after 1980, when Ben nerve gasses everyone. So...there's not a lot of information available about them. But you might be right.

It still seems a bit odd to me that she'd be so sure that the future was different and know that Faraday didn't have to do the physics in one time, and so sure that he would in the other.

There's another possibility, which is that the timelines don't make a Y - they make an X. The idea being that both timelines are required, and much like Jughead exploding/not, it's crucial that Faraday does or doesn't become a physicist. In the world where he does become one, he goes back in time to stop the incident. In the world where he doesn't become one, he doesn't go back in time and the incident happens. Eloise wasn't pushing him to be a physicist so that time would remain constant and awesome; she was doing so so that he would save himself in another timeline and preserve that part.

Or something.

So, hey, Sun's boobs were pretty nice, yeah? And pity about Ilana's giant chest blowing up, right?

Kal, as a big time Lost geek, I feel compelled to inform you that Dharma was gassed in 1993. (Or around then.) Plus, I tend to think that Kelvin (the guy in the hatch with Desmond) was really sent there by them, so I'd say they're still around...just post-purge, they mainly pulled out of the Island except for the Swan station, because they knew the gravity of the situation at hand there.

EDIT: Plus, Faraday was in Ann Arbor with the Dharma founders for the 3 years that Sawyer and co were on the Island in Dharma...so I'd venture a guess and say Faraday's notebook included COMPREHENSIVE (sorry, Rockroi moment) Dharma intel.

And yeah, I'm kinda sad Ilana and her awesome boobs blew up this week. I really kind of liked her. At least Lost is keeping with their track record of killing strong females. (No, no Kate is not strong.)

[Foreverlad]

...and, as loathe as I am to bring up one of the old unanswered questions, there was a new shipment of dharma supplies back in what... season 2? Either Dharma was still operating or someone had access to their supplies.

[Demonblade]

Okay, step back a bit.

Let's assume that Eloise knows everything she knows because Faraday wrote it in the journal. That's the only source of her knowledge. However, that journal doesn't have everything. And among other things, it almost certainly doesn't have any information about the island sinking. Faraday didn't know about the island until being recruited by Widmore, and the only information about when the island existed that Faraday had was in 2004 (when he first got there) and 1974 (when he went back). That's it. Maybe he got some information that Widmore had when he was with Dharma. But again, very old information.

Again you say as if you know for certain what Faraday's journal definitely says or doesn't say. How do you know? He didn't say what exactly would happen, just that it would act as a full reset and allow the flight 815 to land, which it did. Eloise knows what she knows because obviously she knows stuff from Faraday's journal as well as having similar dual consciousness in different timelines.

So Jughead blows up, and the island sinks. Going away from the notion that she'd know the island sank because she was on it (try and think about that for one second to see why that sounds a bit odd), the journal almost certainly has nothing about what the island was like between 1977 and 2004. Now, we know that the island can move. And Widmore knew this too. Eloise almost certainly knew about this and the donkey wheel.

Obviously the island didn't sink right away. This has also been repeated several times yet you still seem to overlook this.

So now in the alternate world, Eloise knows the island sinks. But how can she know that the island isn't going to come back? She has no way of knowing whether or not time has been altered at this point. From her perspective nothing has changed. Faraday's still dead. She still has the journal. The island's gone, but she knows from Faraday's journal that she leaves the island at some point anyway. And if she doesn't know the island is or isn't going to come back, how can she change her mind to not give Faraday the physics treatment?

The island isn't herpes, it's an island. If it sank then it's a pretty reasonable assumption to believe that it wouldn't come back.

Okay, how does she know what happens in both timelines? The theory was that she knew (sorta) what would happen in the original timeline because of the journal. Are you suggesting that the journal also contains the history of what happens in the alternate timeline? And that Faraday wrote this down and gave it to her? Because that's way more farfetched than what I suggested.

She knew what happens in both timelines because she knows about Desmond. Desmond spent years seeking Widmore's approval in order to feel like he deserves to be with Penny, and in the alternate timeline not only does he have Widmore's approval, he's his right hand man.

According to your theory, she has the journal. That only records the main timeline. That means that from her perspective, as long as she has the journal and things aren't in there everything is happening the same way. Which is why it doesn't make sense that she would do two different things given the same information (the journal).

I'll say this once more and that's it because it's futile to repeat myself and if you can't grasp this then there really is no point in continuing further: if she has the ability of dual consciousness in multiple timelines like Desmond (something which is strongly hinted at), then she knows that having the island sink is something that didn't originally happen and thus Faraday's plan worked. Once she felt that it was accomplished, then she has no reason to push her son toward becoming a physicist.

I guess an easy way to boil it down is this: the reason she pushed Faraday to physics is because of his journal.

In the altverse he is not pushed to physics.

Therefore, Eloise does not have the journal.

You already conceded that she probably does have the journal in both timelines, else she wouldn't have any business knowing anything about Desmond in the alt timeline.

Wait - you're saying that because it's convoluted it doesn't belong on Lost? Hah.

One of the main themes in Lost is love. A second is trying to fix what you can't. I'm not sure how Eloise knowing about the alt/real verses and trying desperately to save her doomed son from a horrible fate isn't a Lostian type of thing.

No, but being able to accomplish it is, which is why the alt timeline isn't right.

So you're suggesting that the island sank right away, then? How did the Others get off the island? We know of exactly one submarine - and that submarine was mostly populated by Dharma folks, right (the ones that Chang got to warn). Are they going to hang out and chill with the Others, or wait until more Others pop on board? I guess you could have her on the last boat out, watching as the island slowly sinks into the water or something. But the implication (to me at least) was that the island sank essentially right as the bomb went off. There was no time to pack off anything - it was just a catastrophic event. And while I can see someone like Pierre and Miles and Ben and his dad making it off, it's much harder for me to figure the Others leaving.

Now I'm convinced that you're being deliberately obtuse. Where does what I said imply this? Whatever Juliette ended up doing could very easily have meant that the island started to appear unstable, which caused a mass evacuation of the island. Where did I say that the island sank right away? How stupid is that idea? You don't have to reach for the most ridiculous conclusion in order to make a point, you know. It's lazy and doesn't help your own point.

I said it upthread. "It's an honor to meet you. I've been waiting a very long time for this". Something simple, a nod and a wink to the audience. That's it.

I don't know about you, but having Chang look at the camera and wink at us seems a bit creepy to me. ;) But leaving that aside, having Chang not saying anything to Hurley means nothing. Oh sure he could have done this or that, but in the end, his not saying something to Hurley or even implying it does not mean that he didn't recognize him. He could easily have thought not to mention anything at all.

You'd have to assume that Chang would know about the alt/real timeline divide too if there was a Y; after all, he's guiding the real Miles to another career, lives in the same town as him now, apparently is friendly and helped raise him. So if it's a Y, Chang also knows what happens, including that Miles doesn't really know his dad well or has a shitty relationship with him. Plus, Chang was one of the researchers at Dharma who knew about the anomalies and some of the time jumping wackiness. Would he be able to figure out that the new timeline happened? Not sure. But I think he'd figure that something was fishy about it all.

He's probably in the same boat as Eloise but probably without Eloise's dual consciousness. More importantly, he's too much of a minor character to really make much of an issue on it. In fact, this last episode is probably going to be the last we ever see of him.

[Trebla]

The island isn't herpes, it's an island. If it sank then it's a pretty reasonable assumption to believe that it wouldn't come back.

:rofl:

[Gertrude]

You guys are all hurting my brain with the timeline debate.

I think this is the truest thing said in any of these threads yet.

What did you mean about Eloise's broachs? They looked like they were meant to be noticed, but I didn't read anything into them. Are you thinking parallel universes?

[Mya Stone]

I think this is the truest thing said in any of these threads yet.

What did you mean about Eloise's broachs? They looked like they were meant to be noticed, but I didn't read anything into them. Are you thinking parallel universes?

Yes, Gert...she has two separate lines, running parallel to each other as a brooch, and we're not supposed to notice it? Especially since in Flashes Before Your Eyes, her brooch was an ouroboros.

(Also, another lost fan on another site noticed that they [the new brooches] look EXACTLY like Juliet's brand from S3, but I think that's more of a coincidence.)

[Samalander]

Some thoughts:

1) Anyone else think falling down the well didn't finish off Desmond?

2) It's nice to see Hugo step up.

3) Did anyone notice if Hugo's number while waiting for his chicken is the same as the one assigned to him by Jacob?

4) Is it just me or does island Desmond seem to be toying with FakeLocke a bit?

5) Didn't Elana get touched by Jaciob? Shouldn't that make her immune, to, oh, I don't know...DYING?!?!

6) How is Alt-Locke going to react to alt-Ben post "wake up"?

Might he try to kill him?

7) Is it a coincidence that of all the people in flight 815 that alt-Des could be "waking up he's choosing the "Big Names"?

8) Miles had a nice "and you do anything they tell you" moment with Hugo. This time he was the voice of the audience.

[Imagica]

I really kind of liked her. At least Lost is keeping with their track record of killing strong females. (

Yeah, that pissed me off a bit, too. And they didn't even hint at her backstory... not cool. Even whiners like Shannon (not to mention Nikki and Paulo) got their day in the limelight before getting axed. And Ilana seemed to have some potential :(

1) Anyone else think falling down the well didn't finish off Desmond?

Well, this guy didn't die from hatch explosion, so it can be anything. Personally, I really hope that's not the end of his islandverse version.

5) Didn't Elana get touched by Jaciob? Shouldn't that make her immune, to, oh, I don't know...DYING?!?!

We have no idea about Jacob's abilities. I don't think that touch always equals immortality. And, well, he touched Locke as well, and where is he?

7) Is it a coincidence that of all the people in flight 815 that alt-Des could be "waking up he's choosing the "Big Names"?

Des sure seems to know a lot of what's going on - doubt that's a coincidence.

[chionophile]

Some thoughts:

1) Anyone else think falling down the well didn't finish off Desmond?

2) It's nice to see Hugo step up.

3) Did anyone notice if Hugo's number while waiting for his chicken is the same as the one assigned to him by Jacob?

4) Is it just me or does island Desmond seem to be toying with FakeLocke a bit?

5) Didn't Elana get touched by Jaciob? Shouldn't that make her immune, to, oh, I don't know...DYING?!?!

6) How is Alt-Locke going to react to alt-Ben post "wake up"?

Might he try to kill him?

7) Is it a coincidence that of all the people in flight 815 that alt-Des could be "waking up he's choosing the "Big Names"?

8) Miles had a nice "and you do anything they tell you" moment with Hugo. This time he was the voice of the audience.

1) Hopefully; I like Desmond.

2) Yes. But it seems like he kind of stepped in it this time. I happen to think that Richard is right in that Locke should not get off the island. Blowing up the plane is probably not the way to go about it though (why couldn't they just smash the controls if their plan was to stop him from using the plane? why dynamite?).

3) It was Desmond's number and it was 42. Dunno if that was his or not. Did Desmond even have a number?

5) The island was done with her. One of the characters (Ben?) even said it. The island and Jacob seem to be used interchangeably on occasion (remember when Michael couldn't kill himself? It was the "island" that wasn't done with him)

[Kalbear]

EDIT: Plus, Faraday was in Ann Arbor with the Dharma founders for the 3 years that Sawyer and co were on the Island in Dharma...so I'd venture a guess and say Faraday's notebook included COMPREHENSIVE (sorry, Rockroi moment) Dharma intel.

Right, but that would have only gone up to 1977. Which was my point; Eloise wouldn't have information about Dharma after 1977 other than sparse stuff that Faraday had managed to research.