Hyper-masculinity & Hyper-femininity

[S John]

If I was a caveman I would find the cave-stoners and get lit all day. Probably isn't shit else to do for entertainment without TV and internet. And, if I played my cards right, I could turn my drug induced ideas into the cave religion. Then I would dominate.

[Nichole]

If I was a caveman I would find the cave-stoners and get lit all day. Probably isn't shit else to do for entertainment without TV and internet. And, if I played my cards right, I could turn my drug induced ideas into the cave religion. Then I would dominate.

You would be killed by the first tiger to come along if you were stoned and contemplating your navel. Your day dreaming hippie genes wouldn't be passed along. No dominating for you.

[litechick]

I have to echo what GS said. I consider bodybuilder muscles ornamental. Men who actually work hard every day rarely look like that unless they also have a hobby of lifting weights.

I was kind of confused when everyone was going on about the male eye-candy in 300. When I watched it I thought it sort of looked like they were all wearing ape breastplates.

Body hair, I could take it or leave it. It wouldn't be a deal breaker if I really liked a guy but when it comes to admiring the male form, hair just gets in the way.

[Galactus]

already disagreed with my definition of hyper-feminine as uber-curvaceous. She feels that that term means extremely petite, very girlish women.

probably can reasonably encompass both because the aesthetics for female bodies has evolved over time. a nice summary might be read in susan bordo's unbearable weight, wherein rubenesque figures become the ideal at one point, but the aesthetics then eventually become twiggy. those poles merge in ice-T's wife, who has barbie doll isthmi, but also breast and ass implants, apparently.

ass implants - WTF?

Oh, it varied before that too. Pudgy women was the ideal in the 1600's, in the 1400's the ideal was slender, tall women with small breasts.

[kiko]

Real women have curves

Just wanted to throw you to the wolves here. Which is customary when this gets posted. That it didn't happen yet was probably just an oversight. Carry on!

eta: added a sane sentence structure

[Ran]

True. I don't think anyone should be defining "real women". Real women (and real men) come in all shapes and sizes.

[Tempra]

I have to echo what GS said. I consider bodybuilder muscles ornamental. Men who actually work hard every day rarely look like that unless they also have a hobby of lifting weights.

I was kind of confused when everyone was going on about the male eye-candy in 300. When I watched it I thought it sort of looked like they were all wearing ape breastplates.

Body hair, I could take it or leave it. It wouldn't be a deal breaker if I really liked a guy but when it comes to admiring the male form, hair just gets in the way.

Men who work hard everyday likely do not consume the amount of calories necessary to grow large amounts of muscle. The hardest work bodybuilders do is eating 3-6k+ of calories. Every day for years.

[jurble]

I know there's a thread on Christina Hendricks and some guys have mentioned that her tits are too big. (not most, but there are some) As a woman, I think she'd look a lot better (and more comfortable!) if she reduced them a size or two. I can't help but think they are just a pain in the ass to live with. My mom always hated her large chest because it got in the way of her golf game :)

Christina Hendricks IS PERFECT. Anyone who disagrees is insane!

But see, the size that female breasts reach in many women is a perfect example of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fisherian_runaway , they're so large for some people, they actually decrease fitness.

Men who work hard everyday likely do not consume the amount of calories necessary to grow large amounts of muscle. The hardest work bodybuilders do is eating 3-6k+ of calories. Every day for years.

You're underestimating the hardest working bodybuilders. They're taking in more calories than Michael Phelps.

[Tempra]

How would cave men train to be big enough to be bodybuilders, anyway? Did they just lift heavy rocks all day in the hopes that their uber-manliness would a.) save the tribe from the dreaded sabre-toothed tiger and b.) make themselves pretty enough for the cave ladies? Because it seems like too much of a waste of time, something you had precious little of if you want to do things like eat. Which brings up another issue. You need lots of food along with the time and dedication required to obtain such a huge physique. Who is going to hunt while the men supposedly are working out, prehistoric-style?

I think we can all agree that most/all men before modern times were nowhere near the size of today's bodybuilders. With that said, it's rather silly to think that all/most men were rail thin a la brad pitt in fight club. Cutting down trees, pushing/pulling heavy carts, moving rocks to build buildings, etc, provide ample stimulation for muscle growth.

Time is not the problem. People were farming, building, hunting, cutting down trees, etc, for hours a day, every day.

The real question is whether they had ample food to support muscle growth. That, of course, depends on the person's status in society.

[Eurytus]

You're underestimating the hardest working bodybuilders. They're taking in more calories than Michael Phelps.

Which going back to the caveman scenario painted earlier would make them poor mates. Someone who is going to insist on consuming an amount of food that would feed 3 or more adults or an entire family is not the best provider really.

[jurble]

Which going back to the caveman scenario painted earlier would make them poor mates. Someone who is going to insist on consuming an amount of food that would feed 3 or more adults or an entire family is not the best provider really.

Mos' def'.

When I think of the "ideal man" in terms of sheer manliness, it's mountain-men. Sinewy, bearded, but definitely strong. These dudes effectively lived a hunter-gatherer life-style while fur-trapping and guff. You know Grizzly Adams type guys.

Like:

http://www.alfeldstein.com/img/mountainman.jpg

http://doug-johnson.squarespace.com/storage/ReturningToCamp1880-500.jpg

http://www.davidwrightart.com/view.php?imageID=154

Those men were real men.

I mean Les Stroud

http://images.google.com/images?um=1&hl=en&tbs=isch%3A1&sa=1&q=Les+Stroud&aq=f&aqi=g3g-m1&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&start=0

Is probably what most Eurasian hunter-gatherers resembled.

[Relic]

I would say that our successful hunter-gatherer ancestors who successfully fed themselves and protected their kin-groups probably tended to look a lot more like this or this than like this.

Exactly. We survived at first because we could run away.

[Eurytus]

Mos' def'.

When I think of the "ideal man" in terms of sheer manliness, it's mountain-men. Sinewy, bearded, but definitely strong. These dudes effectively lived a hunter-gatherer life-style while fur-trapping and guff. You know Grizzly Adams type guys.

Like:

http://www.alfeldste...mountainman.jpg

http://doug-johnson....amp1880-500.jpg

http://www.davidwrig...php?imageID=154

Those men were real men.

I mean Les Stroud

http://images.google...s_rfai=&start=0

Is probably what most Eurasian hunter-gatherers resembled.

See Liver Eating Johnson and Albert Johnson (not related).

[Sirius]

Once again, with the recent turn the argument has taken... In defense of my candidate :)

[Tempra]

Which going back to the caveman scenario painted earlier would make them poor mates. Someone who is going to insist on consuming an amount of food that would feed 3 or more adults or an entire family is not the best provider really.

That makes sense in the abstract, but in reality, humans grouped together and pooled resources. Leaders were often physically powerful individuals that were also supported by their physically powerful friends.

Those people were great providers.

[jurble]

See Liver Eating Johnson and Albert Johnson (not related).

Have you ever seen http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Man ?

[Eurytus]

That makes sense in the abstract, but in reality, humans grouped together and pooled resources. Leaders were often physically powerful individuals that were also supported by their physically powerful friends.

Those people were great providers.

I can't think of many leaders, either in history or in modern hunter gatherer/bush, societies who were anything like a bodybuilder in build.

I've seen this claimed before but never seen any evidence for it.

[Eurytus]

Have you ever seen http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Man ?

Not yet, must get round to it.

[kairparavel]

Wait. I thought this guy was all things masculine.

He doesn't bulge. He doesn't come with a sweater knit into his skin.

And he looks age of majority to me.

It's of course interesting that the 21st century aesthetics seem to be pushing away from the hyper-end of the scale, although sometimes to a baffling degree (the extreme slenderness -- to the point of boyishness -- of the Paris Hiltons of the world, for example; and I'm sure there'll be those who feel that the admiration of the Orlando Blooms of the world is a similar, androgynizing impulse).

So are you suggesting how people interpret the ideal, or how people are physically evolving over time?

I'm inclined to see the ideal following the evolution, more or less.

[TerraPrime]

Re: Stego

Hair and voice change are controlled mostly by test. Regardless, you are right that muscularity is not the only trait of masculinity. It is certainly the overwhelmingly obvious one at first glance.

I'd argue that facial hair is a more prominent sign of masculinity than muscularity is. Unless the person is bare-chested or wearing form-fitting cloths, it's not that easy to see muscularity, whereas facial hair is readily visible.

Re: Jurble

You and turinturambar should start a club:

Some women may be intimidated by big guys, but other women like strong men and are actually biologically programmed to do so through evolution.

Re:

Brad Pitts physique is not 'original masculinity' it's 'original twink.' He looks like a young boy or perhaps a girl. Men have hair on their bodies, unless they are pre-pubescent.

So... you talking about chest and tummy hair? Then that excludes many Asian men.

The attraction to the latter is no different than men liking too-young girls. I'm not saying it's wrong, per se, but there it is.

I think there's a gradation and scale here. I also think that perhaps you should address androgyny in your analysis. Some people are attracted to androgynous looks. For instance, David Bowie circa Ziggy Stardust.

Also, as a gay man, the whole butch-femme dichotomy is not something I can afford to ignore. I tend to gravitate, visually, towards the butch end of the spectrum. But looks can be deceiving. Some of the most butch-looking bears I've met are not what they seem. As one person puts it, he might look like a prison gangster, but when he opens his mouth, yards of chiffon come flying out. Also, one of the butchest men I've ever seen turned out to a post-op FtM transsexual. I could not believe my eyes.

Re: Ran

When I think of hypermasculinity, I don't tend to think of excess muscle. I tend to think of images from the Mapplethorpe collection (the ones that are not about leather-sex BD/SM), or drawings from Tom of Finland.