The Police Are Your Enemy

[Eurytus]

Which proves exactly nothing.

[Tormund Ukrainesbane]

An allegation of a crime is not proof that a crime took place.

But it apparently sufficient to warrant the murder of your pets, the beating of your person, and the terrorizing of your family.

And the affair was with a recently graduated student. Not a student.

Fantastic job of cherry picking by the way. Perhaps you should read through the article in the village voice mentioned, in which it is the NYPD policy to not investigate crimes, and promote general harassment of citizens (all caught on tape). Or the hundreds of beatings, false arrests, and tortures committed on a constant basis. Or we could move on to rapes and murders?

[Stego]

I don't want the element of his associates/customers in my neighborhood

Human beings?

[TerraPrime]

Billy, you say that police stopped a nutcase from calling you. I submit that a good stern talking-to is hardly prevention. The nutcase made a conscious choice to cease his behavior. I submit a big friend with a baseball bat would have done the trick just as well with far less cost to the taxpayer. The bat also works for noise complaints. :D

You also say a fatal shooting occurred, and the police caught the 'culprit.' You have no way of knowing that. We're a nation that puts innocent people in jail for decades.

I don't know how I was supposed to do a stern talking-to to the guy, given that I don't know who he is. The police got a warrant to trace the phone record and put a tap on my phone line, and he called again, and we got him. And by "resolved," I meant he was prosecuted, and then expelled from school. I suppose one can argue that he could have still tried calling me again, and it was his choice to stop calling, but that'd be a bit of an odd argument to make.

For the noise complaint, we did talk to the neighbors and tried to work with them. We only started calling the police when they did not cooperate or modify their behavior. But after the police talked to them, they did stop. For one neighbor, they got the cops called on them three times, and the landlord then refused to renew the lease with them because of the registered noise complaints. So yeah, it's all the result of police work. I just don't see how it would have been resolved better by me taking a baseball bat to them. I'll probably get beaten up pretty badly, and be charged for assault on top of it. Physical harm in response to noise violation is not proportionate, and I would be rightly prosecuted for the inappropriate response.

Frankly, I trust the police a lot more than every Joe and Jane who picks up a baseball bat to execute their own version of justice and law.

On the fatal shooting, you're right. I should have said that they arrested a suspect, and then it's up to the legal system to take over. I am by no means ignorant of the inequities in our legal system.

Also, cops in uniform are hawt. :drool: :smileysex:

[Eurytus]

But it apparently sufficient to warrant the murder of your pets, the beating of your person, and the terrorizing of your family.

Wow, nice strawman argument.

Fantastic job of cherry picking by the way. Perhaps you should read through the article in the village voice mentioned, in which it is the NYPD policy to not investigate crimes, and promote general harassment of citizens (all caught on tape). Or the hundreds of beatings, false arrests, and tortures committed on a constant basis. Or we could move on to rapes and murders?

When I see something more than "it is alleged" maybe I will.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

And rare? RARE?

http://www.injusticeeverywhere.com/

That shit was from YESTERDAY. Go through the blog. You'll find similar entries every fucking day.

You seem to be equating claims of police misconduct with proof of police misconduct. I'm not saying it doesn't happen. I personally do not have a very high opinion of police as a whole, and I've told some that to their face. But at the same time, just because someone claims police brutality or misconduct doesn't mean it actually happened that way.

I'll relate what pisses me off about our local cops. Most of the cops are members of the police union, and they have these "courtesy cards" they give to friends and family that you can use sort of as a "get out of a ticket free" card if you get pulled over. What the hell is that? Does the law belong to the citizenry, or is it something only to be enforced at the personal whims of the particular cop in question? Know a cop, get out of jail free. Bullshit, as far as I'm concerned.

[BigFatCoward]

AIRTIGHT PROBABLE CAUSE

or Reasonable grounds as it would be known in the UK does not exist. there is always a degree of interpretation based on your own circumstances.

i mainly agree with you on the rest of your post. however i strangely also kind of agree with stego. drug laws are ridiculous. everything should be legal, however since it isn't and everyone knows this you can hardly complain if you have a couple of k's of rock in your house and the police come abseiling through your window and blow away your pooch.

[Ran]

Stego,

Easy with the 'asinine' comments, man.

Well, what am I going to call it when you're holding a poorly thought out position that's inconsistent with reality? Your argument is as fantastical as that of Creationists, Flat Earthers, and 9/11-conspiracy nuts.

There certainly wasn't one when this nation was founded.

Philadelphia, the place where the nation was founded, had had a police force for 25 years in 1776. The District of Columbia had constables policing it from its establishment.

The denser the population, the greater the income disparity between rich and poor, the more pernicious racial and economic inequality, the higher the crime rate will be. Police forces become necessary, because "a talking to" isn't going to work any more.

There's not a modern nation in the world without some sort of organization(s) assigned to policing the community.

[BigFatCoward]

You seem to be equating claims of police misconduct with proof of police misconduct.

which is strange when you are so loath to accept that a lot of people who are arrested are so for perfectly valid reasons. your standard of proof seems to be variable depending on whether someone is a police officer or not.

[awesome possum]

Unfortunately the police are drawn from the general population they have the same issues as everyone else, just more power to impose them if they aren't kept in check.

This and

Poorly trained double digit IQ'd sociopaths are not the folks who ought to be running around with glocks.

This.

An acquaintance of mine joined the police for a few years ago. He's a smart, good guy with a masters in criminal justice. He worked a shit job at a domestic violence shelter and wanted to ensure he could start earning money for himself and his pregnant wife. He went through the academy, absolutely disgusted by those around him, and worked on the force for less than two months before he quit because he felt he would have had to turn into a horrible piece of shit to stay. He really just confirmed my opinion.

The police force is made up of three types of people: those who were bullies in high school, don't have the intelligence or money to do anything else and need to regain that power; those who were bullied in high school, don't have the intelligence or money to do anything else and want to ensure they're never bullied again; and those who truly want to do good but have their souls crushed by the first two groups of people.

several pounds of pot ... break into houses to steal stuff to support whatever habits they have.

You've never actually met potheads, have you?

[Tormund Ukrainesbane]

Wow, nice strawman argument.

How is it a strawman when it is the subject of the whole thread and caught on videotape? "Suspicion" and "Alleged" are good enough for actual penalty to be enacted against we mere mundanes but not against the sanctified personages of the master class?

When I see something more than "it is alleged" maybe I will.

A US Customs Border Patrol officer was sentenced to 19 months in prison for accepting a $4,800 bribe in order to let a man cross the border without a background check.

A Cape Coral Florida police sergeant has plead guilty to fraud charges in a wide-ranging mortgage fraud case after a detective, who is the son of the chief there, had plead guilty in same case last month.

A Slaton Texas police officer was convicted of theft in office charges for stealing $200 from a purse that was used as bait in a sting operation that was set up after he was accused of drug use.

An Elkins Arkansas police officer took a plea deal in order to dismiss charges of harassment and making threats.

3 Baltimore Maryland police officers who are members of an elite unit have been indicted for kidnapping two teens last year.

A Virginia Beach Virginia police officer was sentenced to 2 years in prison on conspiracy charges related to his role in a Russian bride immigration marriage fraud case.

A Warren Township Ohio police officer is on leave after a protection order was filed against him that took away his right to possess a firearm

Two San Luis Obispo California police officers were sentenced to probation after pleading guilty to transporting mislabled prescription medications through the Mexican border.

A Carteret County North Carolina sheriff plead guilty for embezzling federal funds that were intended for undercover drug operations and one of his deputies also plead guilty to misprison of a felony for covering for the sheriff when he knew what was going on.

A Fayette County Ohio deputy that I just mentioned yesterday has plead guilty to stealing nearly $30,000 in seized suspected drug money from the sheriffs department storage area.

Those are just from this week, and don't count all the arrests, lawsuits and charges being filed. Only completed judicial cases here.

[awesome possum]

I have, including a "charming" lady who smoked the stuff while pregnant and around her young daughter. Delightful.

Yeah, it's shitty. But how many houses did she break into to support her habit?

[BigFatCoward]

You've never actually met potheads, have you?

yeah, can't really see pot heads getting their shit together long enough to plan a burglary. though they may steal all your icecream and chocolate if you left your back door open with a signpost.

Chataya -

Pot is too cheap to necessitate crime, if you'd been talking about brown or white then i'd take your point.

[Eurytus]

How is it a strawman when it is the subject of the whole thread and caught on videotape? "Suspicion" and "Alleged" are good enough for actual penalty to be enacted against we mere mundanes but not against the sanctified personages of the master class?

Its a strawman because it doesn't address my argument at all. It simply throws in an assertion that I never contested, stated or commented upon. As such it adds nothing to the debate and is a failure in terms of responding to my argument. Which is that such incidents are still comparatively rare.

A US Customs Border Patrol officer was sentenced to 19 months in prison for accepting a $4,800 bribe in order to let a man cross the border without a background check.

A Cape Coral Florida police sergeant has plead guilty to fraud charges in a wide-ranging mortgage fraud case after a detective, who is the son of the chief there, had plead guilty in same case last month.

A Slaton Texas police officer was convicted of theft in office charges for stealing $200 from a purse that was used as bait in a sting operation that was set up after he was accused of drug use.

An Elkins Arkansas police officer took a plea deal in order to dismiss charges of harassment and making threats.

3 Baltimore Maryland police officers who are members of an "elite" unit have been indicted for kidnapping two teens last year.

A Virginia Beach Virginia police officer was sentenced to 2 years in prison on conspiracy charges related to his role in a Russian bride immigration marriage fraud case.

A Warren Township Ohio police officer is on leave after a protection order was filed against him that took away his right to possess a firearm

Two San Luis Obispo California police officers were sentenced to probation after pleading guilty to transporting mislabled prescription medications through the Mexican border.

A Carteret County North Carolina sheriff plead guilty for embezzling federal funds that were intended for undercover drug operations and one of his deputies also plead guilty to misprison of a felony for covering for the sheriff when he knew what was going on.

Those are just from this week, and don't count all the arrests, lawsuits and charges being filed. Only completed judicial cases here.

In a week and given the vast numbers of police in the US, that's still not proof that "police are your enemy".

Which is one of the nonsensical claims made in this thread along with "Police don't prevent crime" and "Police never solve crime".

[Tyrellius]

An acquaintance of mine joined the police for a few years ago. He's a smart, good guy with a masters in criminal justice. He worked a shit job at a domestic violence shelter and wanted to ensure he could start earning money for himself and his pregnant wife. He went through the academy, absolutely disgusted by those around him, and worked on the force for less than two months before he quit because he felt he would have had to turn into a horrible piece of shit to stay. He really just confirmed my opinion.

What is he doing now? Logically, trying to get into IA and actually policing the police would have seemed a good idea for him.

Maybe I watch too many movies though.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

which is strange when you are so loath to accept that a lot of people who are arrested are so for perfectly valid reasons.

I'm not sure where you got that from. I think most people who are arrested likely are arrested for valid reasons. Cops generally don't want to waste their time making arrests that won't stick.

your standard of proof seems to be variable depending on whether someone is a police officer or not.

I'm not quite sure what you're saying here. My point was that the same people claiming that the police essentially jump to conclusions too fast were doing the exact same thing themselves.

Ran,

In this case, I think general policy ought to be that if there's no evidence of violent crime on someone's record (and I've heard no evidence that this man had any criminal record to speak of), you come in soft and maybe you have SWAT standing outside as back up in case they move towards violence. Instead, they assumed the worst and rushed in. (This same mindset is also why the incidence of tasers being used -- even against non-violent individuals -- have gone way up in recent years)

It's possible we haven't heard the whole story, but I tend to agree that serving a warrant with a SWAT team when there's no significant reason to anticipate violence seems overboard.

[awesome possum]

OK, maybe I was a little harsh. I was a rather big pothead back in high school and I remember doing some desperate things to score a bag of some primo skunk... like applying for a job at the local Burger King

*shudder*

[Darzin]

Alright Stego and Tormund what is you're alternative if the police are such a terrible institution how should the system be changed?

[awesome possum]

What is he doing now? Logically, trying to get into IA and actually policing the police would have seemed a good idea for him.

Maybe I watch too many movies though.

He's working at the same non-profit domestic violence shelter. In the short time he was there he said he never saw his co-workers do anything criminal. It was the apathy they had towards their job and the utter contempt they had for citizens, especially those who lived in poorer neighborhoods.

[White Walker Texas Ranger]

Stego, while I do agree wi th a lot of the "fuck the police" attitude, especially with regard to the over proliferation of SWAT, and bored suburban/rural cops,remember that not everyone is 300 pounds of muscle and can scare muggers away with one look.