The Police Are Your Enemy

[Tormund Ukrainesbane]

Well, sure, I'm not going to hire them to break my own legs. But what if I hired them to break your legs?

Then I guess you would call them the police.

[Nathanael]

Congratulations, your witty sidestep of the problem has convinced me that we should privatize public security.

[King Nobody]

Well, sure, I'm not going to hire them to break my own legs. But what if I hired them to break your legs?

They would probably be shot. I'm having trouble visualizing a private police force that is anywhere near similar to what we have now. The people who would be able to hire them wouldn't really have an incentive to. If we got rid of the police entirely it would probably lead to corporations hiring private security to protect only their own interests, and the rest of society having a sort of "wild west" system of justice, where everyone is armed, and if you kill someone you're gunna get killed by someone close to who you killed.

[TrueMetis]

They would probably be shot. I'm having trouble visualizing a private police force that is anywhere near similar to what we have now. The people who would be able to hire them wouldn't really have an incentive to. If we got rid of the police entirely it would probably lead to corporations hiring private security to protect only their own interests, and the rest of society having a sort of "wild west" system of justice, where everyone is armed, and if you kill someone you're gunna get killed by someone close to who you killed.

While that sounds kind of fun, I'll stick to video games.

[Tormund Ukrainesbane]

This is funny. I supplied several, real, common-sense reforms whose merits could be weighed by actual evidence, and people took an off-hand comment and trotted off to neverland with it. This board has a real hysteria when it comes to the government having less power.

[Lord Mord]

Tormund O,

Blackwater works for the government. Not for me. If Blackwater had been hired by the people of Iraq do you think they would still be working there?

I don't follow you here.

Does the government hold exclusive discretionary authority over firings? Is Blackwater not still a private corporation, who presumably would not have to keep someone on their payroll who was accused with rape or other heinous acts if they didn't want to?

[Noontidal]

*shakes wrinkled old fist at police*

Get off my lawn!

[TerraPrime]

Of course they are. See civil forfeiture laws.

So then what's your point, if you agree that a for-profit outfit is different from a not-for-profit one, a.k.a. mercenary versus police?

Whereas police exist in a society where they are accountable to no-one, so they go rogue all the time.

:rolleyes:

"All the time"? Really? Hyperbole much?

Of course not. That would be retarded. They would (#1) be killed by the US Army, and (#2) never work again in their field (#3) face criminal sanction in the US.

So, in other words, the mercenary won't go rogue because there's someone else, bigger and stronger, who will beat them up if they do. I'm not sure how that helps your argument.

[Swordfish]

Main Entry: 1mer·ce·nary

Pronunciation: \ˈmər-sə-ˌner-ē, -ne-rē\

Function: noun

Inflected Form(s): plural mer·ce·nar·ies

Etymology: Middle English, from Latin mercenarius, irregular from merced-, merces wages — more at mercy

Date: 14th century

: one that serves merely for wages; especially : a soldier hired into foreign service

Carry on.

[Tormund Ukrainesbane]

So then what's your point, if you agree that a for-profit outfit is different from a not-for-profit one, a.k.a. mercenary versus police?

It was your point. I said I had no problem viewing police as a mercenary force.

"All the time"? Really? Hyperbole much?

Every damn day.

So, in other words, the mercenary won't go rogue because there's someone else, bigger and stronger, who will beat them up if they do. I'm not sure how that helps your argument.

They won't go rogue because no one will ever hire them again. They won't go rogue because doing business with thieves and murderers doesn't typically end well. Also, this entire line of discussion assumes that the police that we have currently are not corrupt and do not constantly work against the public interest for renumeration from the criminal element.

[Shryke]

Wait, so what's stopping me from hiring a bunch of mercenaries and carving out my own little kingdom?

[Noontidal]

Wait, so what's stopping me from hiring a bunch of mercenaries and carving out my own little kingdom?

*Shakes fist at Shryke*

That!

Now get off my lawn!

[TrueMetis]

Wait, so what's stopping me from hiring a bunch of mercenaries and carving out my own little kingdom?

Money? And the military I assume, unless the military is also to be abolished, oh and my band of mecenaries carving out my kingdom.

[TheKassi]

They won't go rogue because no one will ever hire them again. They won't go rogue because doing business with thieves and murderers doesn't typically end well. Also, this entire line of discussion assumes that the police that we have currently are not corrupt and do not constantly work against the public interest for renumeration from the criminal element.

This entire line of argument is a contradiction. You argue that the police are a mercenary force. You also argue that they rape, kill, steal, and are otherwise completely corrupt, and have secured so much power and authority that they are an occupying force that answers to no one.

Then you go and say that no mercenary force would do the same, because it would be bad for business. Seems to work out for the police, given that they draw a regular pay check, can loot and pillage with impunity, and rule us with absolute authority. .

Besides, mercenaries rape, murder, kill, and loot all over North America all the time. They do it literally every day. Criminal organizations have killed more people in the Mexican drug war then then we have lost in Iraq, and they are going up against a government, not a helpless and disorganized population. The people who preform the killing and maiming and intimidation are generally on someone's payroll.

Saying Mercenaries wouldn't go rogue or work for monsters because it is in the interest to be gentle as lambs is just silly. Drug lords, arms dealers, human traffickers, and organized gangsters running things like protection rackets don't employ specially trained attack kittens that lull you into a false sense of security before lapping off your face with tiny sand paper tongues. They use people willing to preform violence for money.

Also known as mercs.

In addition, the claim that organized crime would vanish absent prohibition is myopic. Organized crime is not limited to drug running and bootlegging. Protection rackets are is a classic 'mob' enterprise, and wouldn't vanish absent government. Organized crime also fences things like stolen goods. They traffic in human beings. Enslave women to become prostitutes. The term 'leg breaker' is also associated with loan sharks and bookies. These roles and others won't just vanish over night simply because weed and meth are legal.

[Nathanael]

This is funny. I supplied several, real, common-sense reforms whose merits could be weighed by actual evidence, and people took an off-hand comment and trotted off to neverland with it. This board has a real hysteria when it comes to the government having less power.

Your "offhand comment" was based on what you truly want, a privatized police force, not a reformed public one. I'm not seeing the hysteria, so much as people trying to get at the root of the problems with your ideas.

They won't go rogue because no one will ever hire them again. They won't go rogue because doing business with thieves and murderers doesn't typically end well.

But that doesn't really follow.

Suppose you (and I'm assuming you'll have to either be really rich or collectivize with some of your neighbors) decide to hire some of your merc police. And suppose they do start going corrupt breaking your legs, shooting your corgis, etc.

Then you say to your merc police, "Hey, I don't like that! I refuse to do business with you. You silly fools, acting against market forces! You're fired!"

To which your corrupt merc police will laugh and say, "Us? Fired? Oh, my good Tormund, you can't fire us, we're protecting you from the bad men. In fact, we think it's high time we started charging more for our services. It's a tough, stressful job, and we don't think you appreciate us enough.

"And if you don't pay, well, we can always break your legs again."

And now you've done a wonderful job of hiring and paying for the development of your own organized crime. Which, as TheKassi pointed out (seriously, thread, it took this long?) does not completely dry up without drugs.

[horangi]

Out of curiosity- in a system based on private security firms, are the poor simply not entitled to law enforcement protection?

[Tormund Ukrainesbane]

But that doesn't really follow.

Suppose you (and I'm assuming you'll have to either be really rich or collectivize with some of your neighbors) decide to hire some of your merc police. And suppose they do start going corrupt breaking your legs, shooting your corgis, etc.

Then you say to your merc police, "Hey, I don't like that! I refuse to do business with you. You silly fools, acting against market forces! You're fired!"

To which your corrupt merc police will laugh and say, "Us? Fired? Oh, my good Tormund, you can't fire us, we're protecting you from the bad men. In fact, we think it's high time we started charging more for our services. It's a tough, stressful job, and we don't think you appreciate us enough.

"And if you don't pay, well, we can always break your legs again."

And now you've done a wonderful job of hiring and paying for the development of your own organized crime. Which, as TheKassi pointed out (seriously, thread, it took this long?) does not completely dry up without drugs.

What's funny is that you just described the police system we have now.

ETA:

Out of curiosity- in a system based on private security firms, are the poor simply not entitled to law enforcement protection?

They don't receive it currently. I'm sure half the folks in the ghetto would be happier if the cops didn't come around.

[TheKassi]

Out of curiosity- in a system based on private security firms, are the poor simply not entitled to law enforcement protection?

Don't be silly, religion is flush with cash. Some righteous figures will see a land of sin as an opportunity to start enforcing god's law, particularly with no government around to forcefully impose their radical notions of freedom of region.

The masses will not be left to twist in the wind. Every speck of easily inhabitable land will have some organization or another protecting people from themselves. It will probably suck to be a woman or a homosexual or a minority for a hundred years or so, before people rise up, overthrow those with power, draft a constitution, and then slowly start extending the concept of inherent rights and freedoms to everyone.

There will however be Order. Don't fret on that.

[AquariumDrinker]

It wasn't a dog that was killed this time:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_police_search_girl_killed

[Crazydog7]

It wasn't a dog that was killed this time:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_police_search_girl_killed

I wonder what Glen Becks defense will be to this one.