US Politics #2

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

FLOW - we have freedom of religion here. Just like the 2nd amendment is supposed to protect us from people like Sologdin, so the 1st protects us from people like you. You are what you hate buddy, sorry to break it to you.

So you're an absolutist when it comes to freedom of religion? I'm fine with that as long as you see the Westboro Church issue the same.

[Alcibiades]

Flow: I would allow the Christians to build the church. Even if they were fundamentalist. Just as long as they were nonviolent. First amendment freedoms are only worthwhile if they protect unpopular groups. Tarring all muslims with the actions of the 9/11 crazies plays into exactly the kind of "war of civilizations" mindset our enemies seek to exploit.

[Kelli Fury]

She is actually one of the frontrunners IMO. Her resume is not much worse than younger Bush in 2000. She has time to prepare for next election (improve her knowledge of foreign politics for example and better prepare for debates ), so she won't be such easy target as in 2008. Her opinions also fit quite well GOP ideology compared for example to McCain or Huckabee who were seen as pro illegal immigrants etc. And most important thing - she is a woman, so some moderate females who normally vote Democrats would vote for her just to see woman in White House. I think Romney is her only serious competitor - most of his positions are highly GOP compactible too and he has much better resume. His only problem is that he's as already said mormon, otherwise he would be probably president now.

This is more of a negative than a positive, as we saw with Clinton. Sure, a lot of women like her for it, but even more women dislike her for it. Men aren't really as much an obstacle to a female president as women are. Many women just do not like other women in general. There are still a lot of women who think their own gender have no place in a powerful position. There are a lot of women who think Palin specifically belongs at home with her challenged son (and these are mostly conservative type women). These votes probably wouldn't go Dem instead, but they just wouldn't be showing up.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

Tarring all muslims with the actions of the 9/11 crazies plays into exactly the kind of "war of civilizations" mindset our enemies seek to exploit.

Well, I'm going to play the Jaime L perspective card on that one. If we were tarring all moslems with the actions of the 9/11 people, we'd be throwing them all in prison, shutting down all mosques, trying them for murder, etc. We're not. We're just asking to move one mosque a few blocks away from what amounts to a memorial site.

But at this point, we're just repeating the same arguments.

[sToNED_CAT]

As to "the woman thing", it didn't help her in 2008, when there were supposedly all of these PUMAs running around angry over Clinton's loss. I'm not sure that will work any better for Palin in 2012 than it did then. Maybe things would be different if Palin were at the top of the ticket, but maybe not.

It didn't help her in 2008 because of economic crisis. Seriously after Lehman collapse there was no way McCain was able to win that race. But I remember when he named Palin his VP, his numbers went immediately up, so that they were basically even. And remember she doesn't need to gain that much new voters. McCain lost the election just by 4(or 5?)%. Considering the fact that economy was in such bad shape, and 2 ongoing wars it was actually pretty impressive achievement. Palin needs just 5% more votes (I don't think someone who voted for McCain would vote against her in 2012) and that's definitely doable.

So you really think Romney would be president if only he hadn't been Mormon? I can't prove you wrong, of course, but it's interesting to note that he came in third - third - in the Republican primary, after both McCain and Huckabee. Third.

So what? He was 3rd BECAUSE he was Mormon. With his business and political experience (and no Mormon background) his chances in 2008 general election would have been better than McCain (who wasn't even very popular among GOP base anyway).

[Kelli Fury]

How can one reconcile Libertarian ideals and private property with disallowing a mosque from any particular place they are able to afford? I know I'm picking on you FLOW, but it just doesn't seem to fit

[DanteGabriel]

It didn't help her in 2008 because of economic crisis. Seriously after Lehman collapse there was no way McCain was able to win that race. But I remember when he named Palin his VP, his numbers went immediately up, so that they were basically even. And remember she doesn't need to gain that much new voters. McCain lost the election just by 4(or 5?)%. Considering the fact that economy was in such bad shape, and 2 ongoing wars it was actually pretty impressive achievement. Palin needs just 5% more votes (I don't think someone who voted for McCain would vote against her in 2012) and that's definitely doable.

The financial crisis also coincided with Palin's debut and the avalanche of revelations about what a lightweight nutjob she was. I think Palin definitely did more damage to McCain's campaign than the financial crisis did.

[DanteGabriel]

Other than the "bear the taint" part, I think I'm stating that pretty expressly.

As I said, I'd feel the same if it was a religiously-motivated attack on a moslem site by some freaky Christians.

You're essentially saying we should suspend freedom of religion then because some people can't tell the difference between Al Qaeda and non-violent Muslims.

Furthermore, I'd like to see how much of the hysteria over the mosque near Ground Zero is driven by locals, and how much of it is driven by out-of-state Republican shitheels who are trying to get some national attention.

[TrackerNeil]

It didn't help her in 2008 because of economic crisis. Seriously after Lehman collapse there was no way McCain was able to win that race. But I remember when he named Palin his VP, his numbers went immediately up, so that they were basically even. And remember she doesn't need to gain that much new voters. McCain lost the election just by 4(or 5?)%. Considering the fact that economy was in such bad shape, and 2 ongoing wars it was actually pretty impressive achievement. Palin needs just 5% more votes (I don't think someone who voted for McCain would vote against her in 2012) and that's definitely doable.

Actually, in June of '08, long before Lehman took a header, some experts were predicting a 6-7 point Obama victory (and not 4-5 as you suggest), which is exactly what happened. Therefore, I don't think you can call McCain's loss a result of Lehman's demise. It sure didn't help, but his erratic response (Campaign suspended! Debates canceled! Campaign unsuspended! Debates on!) probably did nearly as much damage.

As to McCain's numbers going up, they did indeed...and his VP selection was made right before the convention. We've all heard of the post-convention bounce, and I think that explains the numbers. Speaking of numbers, Palin's unfavorables climbed steadily through September; seems the more Americans learned about the guv, the less sure they felt about her. It's interesting to note that some have claimed that Palin may have the first VP nominee to have a significant impact on the performance of the ticket. Too bad for McCain that impact was negative.

[Jaime L]

Well, I'm going to play the Jaime L perspective card on that one. If we were tarring all moslems with the actions of the 9/11 people, we'd be throwing them all in prison, shutting down all mosques, trying them for murder, etc. We're not. We're just asking to move one mosque a few blocks away from what amounts to a memorial site.

Doesn't work and is a pretty weak framing of my argument. The Tea Party is both self-selecting and far more uniform. Do you think I'd use the same argument when talking about Americans as a whole? No, scale matters. It's not like you don't know this either.

[Swordfish]

Agree with your assessment of Palin.

Regarding Gingrich, I've heard he's been testing the waters, but I don't know... That whole "serving your wife divorce papers while she's recovering from surgery", the affair with the woman 23 years old younger than him while trying to nail Clinton, three marriages, ethics violations.

I think he has too many skeletons to garner a favorable public perception. But I will say he's a skilled politician.

And some time has passed, which I think makes those issues less costly for him. People forget about this stuff. Or stop caring. Sort of like what happened with bidens plagiarism. It never got any traction as a negative issue because people didn't really care anymore.

It will be interesting to see how it plays out.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

How can one reconcile Libertarian ideals and private property with disallowing a mosque from any particular place they are able to afford? I know I'm picking on you FLOW, but it just doesn't seem to fit

No problem. I'm not a frothing at the mouth libertarian. I'm just a conservative who leans libertarian as opposed to a social conservative, for the most part. And to me that means that you don't have to ignore common sense. I'm not generally opposed to zoning.

That being said, I'm giving more of a personal opinion than a legal one. I understand why something that could be perceived or spun as sort of a trophy by radicals who supported the 9/11 attacks would bother people who lost family members there. And I completely get that not all moslems are responsible. I don't believe in group or collective guilt period, on race, religion, or gender issues. Shit, the day after 9/11, a couple of my buddies and I went to a Palestinian restaurant down the street from our office because we thought the people who ran it might worry about a backlash. I've been snowblowing my moslem neighbor's driveway for 6 years now, because the guy works all the time and all he's got are kids. Okay, I've got a cool snowblower and its sort of fun, but still....

Just to go off on that tangent a bit, the day after I did the snow the first time, the kids from next door came over with some cookies they had baked to say thank you -- it was around Christmas. Probably my favorite Christmas memory of that year.

Like I said, I think there are legitimate sensitivity issues, and I'd feel the same if something similar happened at the Kaaba or other building of note and was motivated by religion.

Doesn't work and is a pretty weak framing of my argument.

Actually, I think it works very well. Equating moving a mosque a couple of blocks with the degree of religious intolerance seen amongst our enemies is ridiculous.

The Tea Party is both self-selecting

Well, so is being moslem.

and far more uniform.

It may be somewhat more uniform, but I don't think it makes much difference. The broad movement certainly includes some people who likely are quite racists, but also includes plenty of other people to whom racism is abhorrent. You still lump them all in there out of convenience, and also go much further than I do because you are broadly assigning moral guilt, and I'm not.

[Jaime L]

FLOW, if you really want to keep this analogy going - comparing a niche political movement in the U.S. to a diverse religion composed of hundreds of millions of people worldwide - lemme say this: there's been probably a million instances of Muslims condemning the actions of Al-Qaeda. Conscious action to differentiate themselves from those they feel falsely represent their religion.

How many Tea Partiers have condemned the racist aspects in their party? Instead, all I hear are excuses of why they shouldn't have to.

You still lump them all in there out of convenience, and also go much further than I do because you are broadly assigning moral guilt, and I'm not.

Bullshit. Now, I'm not sure if you even understood the argument I was making with regard to the Tea Party. I was never saying the Tea Party is a racist movement. I was saying there is a palpable racist element within the Tea Party that's being tacitly condoned by those who refuse to do anything about it. The more the merry. So long as you're against Big Government who cares if you're on a street corner with a sign comparing Obama to a monkey?

[Tormund Ukrainesbane]

So you're an absolutist when it comes to freedom of religion? I'm fine with that as long as you see the Westboro Church issue the same.

I don't care if someone want to sacrifice chickens to Satan on their front patio across the street from PETA headquarters.

By the way board, how is this shit not the lead story everywhere all the time? This is what scares me most about the government. It's not malevolent, it's not corrupt, it's the fact that nobody knows what the hell is going on. Seriously, if someone wanted to dismantle the domestic surveillance apparatus, they literally could not do it. They couldn't because there is no person who even knows how many people work for said apparatus. Much less who they are or what they are doing.

And then there's

. The federal reserve literally does not know what happened to THREE MOTHERFUCKING TRILLION DOLLARS

So, no one knows who works for the government, no one knows where it's money is going, no one knows what powers it has, and you can be put into sonofabitching prison for EIGHT GODDAMN YEARS for transporting lobsters in bags instead of boxes.

I am absolutely beside myself having read this shit today. You guys want to improve the government? BURN THE MOTHERFUCKER TO THE GROUND.

FUCK

[awesome possum]

That being said, I'm giving more of a personal opinion than a legal one. I understand why something that could be perceived or spun as sort of a trophy by radicals who supported the 9/11 attacks would bother people who lost family members there. And I completely get that not all moslems are responsible. I don't believe in group or collective guilt period, on race, religion, or gender issues. Shit, the day after 9/11, a couple of my buddies and I went to a Palestinian restaurant down the street from our office because we thought the people who ran it might worry about a backlash. I've been snowblowing my moslem neighbor's driveway for 6 years now, because the guy works all the time and all he's got are kids. Okay, I've got a cool snowblower and its sort of fun, but still....

Sorry dude, the cat's outta the bag. No matter how many "I'm not racist, look at this picture of me and my *insert race here* friend!" analogies you bring to the table, you've already outed yourself.

[DanteGabriel]

I don't care if someone want to sacrifice chickens to Satan on their front patio across the street from PETA headquarters.

By the way board, how is this shit not the lead story everywhere all the time? This is what scares me most about the government. It's not malevolent, it's not corrupt, it's the fact that nobody knows what the hell is going on. Seriously, if someone wanted to dismantle the domestic surveillance apparatus, they literally could not do it. They couldn't because there is no person who even knows how many people work for said apparatus. Much less who they are or what they are doing.

And then there's

. The federal reserve literally does not know what happened to THREE MOTHERFUCKING TRILLION DOLLARS

So, no one knows who works for the government, no one knows where it's money is going, no one knows what powers it has, and you can be put into sonofabitching prison for EIGHT GODDAMN YEARS for transporting lobsters in bags instead of boxes.

I am absolutely beside myself having read this shit today. You guys want to improve the government? BURN THE MOTHERFUCKER TO THE GROUND.

FUCK

Now see, this is the kind of groveling deference that endears Tormund to us big government libruls. :cheers:

[Jaime L]

By the way board, how is this shit not the lead story everywhere all the time? This is what scares me most about the government. It's not malevolent, it's not corrupt, it's the fact that nobody knows what the hell is going on. Seriously, if someone wanted to dismantle the domestic surveillance apparatus, they literally could not do it. They couldn't because there is no person who even knows how many people work for said apparatus. Much less who they are or what they are doing.

I had to stop reading it because it was too infuriating. For the "throw money at the problem untill it goes away" mindset, the lack of proper internal controls and procedures, the lack of accountability, the black hole of taxpayer money wasted on redundancies that actively impede the flow of information and maybe most of all the 1984 feel to the whole thing.

It's an absolute travesty. Has any fucking person in the White House or Congress even looked at this?

[Tormund Ukrainesbane]

It's an absolute travesty. Has any fucking person in the White House or Congress even looked at this?

This is the whole point. Where would they look? Who would they call? Nobody even knows.. The system has become so big it is self-perpetuating. And this is the above-board shit that they admit to! Remember when you at least knew it was the CIA and they were buying weapons for Contra's with cocaine money? Never thought those would be the good old days did you?

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Tormund,

A rant worthy of EHK.

[Shryke]

I don't care if someone want to sacrifice chickens to Satan on their front patio across the street from PETA headquarters.

By the way board, how is this shit not the lead story everywhere all the time? This is what scares me most about the government. It's not malevolent, it's not corrupt, it's the fact that nobody knows what the hell is going on. Seriously, if someone wanted to dismantle the domestic surveillance apparatus, they literally could not do it. They couldn't because there is no person who even knows how many people work for said apparatus. Much less who they are or what they are doing.

I am absolutely beside myself having read this shit today. You guys want to improve the government? BURN THE MOTHERFUCKER TO THE GROUND.

As much as I agree with the stupidity of both these things, it's ridiculously naive to pretend this kind of shit is solely the government's thing.

You wanna talk about surveillance? About Big Brother?

Big Brother's already here. And it's not the government. It's private. Private Corporate databases already know more about you then the government does. Shit, the US government buys the data off these people. And these people don't even need to pretend to listen to what you have to say.

But to go back to the link there, this has been the problem for ages now. The US populace says they don't like the government, but in truth they LOVE it. They want as much as they can get out of it and, even more then that, they want the government to be their daddy and to protect them from the monsters under the bed. Post 9/11 the US government went nuts with this stuff. They basically tried to do EVERYTHING all at once. More money, more people, more agencies, more everything.