So I just had the shit beaten out of me

[Guest Raidne]

Sword: here are FBI statistics on that:

Racial bias

In 2006, law enforcement agencies reported that 4,737 single-bias hate crime offenses were racially motivated. Of these offenses:

66.2 percent were motivated by anti-black bias.

21.3 percent were motivated by anti-white bias.

6.1 percent were driven by bias against groups of individuals consisting of more than one race (anti-multiple races, group).

4.9 percent resulted from anti-Asian/Pacific Islander bias.

1.5 percent were motivated by anti-American Indian/Alaskan Native bias.

Note that national origin bias is a separate category, compromising 1,233 incidents, and that 62.4 percent of them are motivated by anti-Hispanic bias.

Sexual orientation bias is responsible for 1,415 incidents. 62.3 percent were against homosexual men. 2 percent were gays beating up straight people.

Again, none of this is adjusted per capita in reference to the size of the populations concerned, but it would appear on its face that you're more likely to get beat up for being black than you are for being hispanic, and much less likely to get beat up for being white. Unles you're gay, in which case you should keep your wits about you.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

I said LIVE on the news. LIVE. You understand what that means, right? We saw the entire thing unfold. There was no chance for funny business in the editing room. The Denny attempted murder was LIVE. The whole world was watching the riots on TV.

I agree with that. Seeing an average citizen pulled from his truck and beaten by a mob is pretty disturbing, but I don't really think it has anything to do with race at all except in the eye of the beholder. The shocking thing about it to me wasn't that a white guy was getting attacked by a bunch of black guys, but that a guy minding his own business got dragged out of a truck and beaten by some other guys. To me at least, color was and is irrelevant to the emotional impact of the scene. Myabe it was because I assume something similar has happened to blacks, and this just happened to get caught on tape. And wasn't it a black guy who saved Denny? That particular incident was racial, but there's nothing inherent in the general situation that has anything to do with race.

I find your distinction of the difference between the King and Denny beatings specious. Both were just as shocking to see. The difference is what Shryke said, There was no fear of that happening to YOU ( as in White folks ) so it gets no mention on the fear meter.

Sword, it may not happen at the same rate, but there are plenty of white guys who get their asses beat by cops too.

Denny had the misfortune to drive into ground zero of the Rodney King riot at the worst possible time. The same thing could (and like I said, probably has) happen to a black guy who happened to be driving his truck at the wrong place and time among a bunch of riled-up white bigots. To me, I suppose the fear difference may be that you might expect cops to get overly-enthusiastic about beating someone up on occasion, but you generally don't expect them to just jump on random people and try to kill them.

All that being said, the Denny beating is probably the last thing I'd think about regarding whether or not I'd want a weapon to protect myself. The mere fact that we're referring to an incident that happened nearly twenty years ago should tell us something about how frequently such things really occur. Stocking up on guns because the black man is getting ready to revolt isn't exactly on my list of priorities. To the extent I ever think about that kind of complete breakdown of law and order, I figure it'd be the decent folk, white, black, and whatever, against the all the colors of the rainbow within the criminal class.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Sword,

Don't people have a ligitimate reason to be fearful of attack by other people, regardless of race?

[SwordoftheMorning]

I agree with that. Seeing an average citizen pulled from his truck and beaten by a mob is pretty disturbing, but I don't really think it has anything to do with race at all except in the eye of the beholder. The shocking thing about it to me wasn't that a white guy was getting attacked by a bunch of black guys, but that a guy minding his own business got dragged out of a truck and beaten by some other guys. To me at least, color was and is irrelevant to the emotional impact of the scene. Myabe it was because I assume something similar has happened to blacks, and this just happened to get caught on tape. And wasn't it a black guy who saved Denny? That particular incident was racial, but there's nothing inherent in the general situation that has anything to do with race.

Sword, it may not happen at the same rate, but there are plenty of white guys who get their asses beat by cops too.

Denny had the misfortune to drive into ground zero of the Rodney King riot at the worst possible time. The same thing could (and like I said, probably has) happen to a black guy who happened to be driving his truck at the wrong place and time among a bunch of riled-up white bigots. To me, I suppose the fear difference may be that you might expect cops to get overly-enthusiastic about beating someone up on occasion, but you generally don't expect them to just jump on random people and try to kill them.

All that being said, the Denny beating is probably the last thing I'd think about regarding whether or not I'd want a weapon to protect myself. The mere fact that we're referring to an incident that happened nearly twenty years ago should tell us something about how frequently such things really occur. Stocking up on guns because the black man is getting ready to revolt isn't exactly on my list of priorities. To the extent I ever think about that kind of complete breakdown of law and order, I figure it'd be the decent folk, white, black, and whatever, against the all the colors of the rainbow within the criminal class.

I'm aware that cops often abuse their power regardless of the race of the person that happens to be the victim, and in all honesty, I agree with most of what you say. However, there is no denying Denny got beaten for being White at that intersection at probably the worst time in history to be there. My only issue with whats been posted in this thread is that even 20 years after, regardless of the fact that no incident even remotely similar has occurred. It's still be referenced as a justification for White people being fearful of Blacks to the point of needing to be armed.

Scot.

living life fearful of other people, regardless of race is kind of a meaningless statement. We live in a world where predators exist, and bad things happen to good people for no reason at all. However, that has nothing to do with the specific point raised in this thread. That being, the Denny beating so affected the psyche of White folks, it justifies them riding around strapped in case a Black guy(s) happens to spot them and decide to beat them to a pulp simply for being White.

Stego is right, when he says it shouldn't be about race. But sadly it is. The fact remains, if ANY group has a righteous fear of random racial violence in this nation, it's NOT White folks. I could list the incidents of people being murdered or beaten for being hispanic, looking Muslim, looking gay or being Black, but I think my point should be clear.

[Galactus]

Isn't keeping a gun in a car you know... Pretty unsafe? It could be stolen quite easily no?

[Guest Raidne]

According to the Department of Justice, there doesn't appear to be much in the way of correlating police violence to race. It will certainly vary depending on the locality though: 1% of the force is responsible for 15% of the complaints, so one Mark Fuhrman is going to make a serious difference.

OTOH, if you a pull a gun to defend yourself against police brutality, you're probably going to die. Period.

ETA: Galactus, most people who are inclined to do so keep it in their glove box, locked, or in the trunk. OTOH, the tow truck driver who we caught a ride with in North Carolina had the nose of his .45 shoved down between the driver's seat and the middle seat.

Would you guys - meaning people in countries with very strict gun control - completely freak out in a situation like that and refuse to get in the car, even if you were also in the United States, or what?

[MinDonner]

If it was a friend or relative? No. We are not all big wusses who shriek and faint at the sight of a firearm. Though the tale would be repeated, on arriving home, to entertain my Eurocommie brethren about those crazy Yanks who keep guns in their cars.

However, if I was hitch-hiking and the guy who offered me a lift had a gun sticking out of the front seat? Fuck that shit, no WAY would I accept that lift.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

Isn't keeping a gun in a car you know... Pretty unsafe? It could be stolen quite easily no?

For the majority of people, I think that's correct. I don't carry one on my person or in my car. I might reconsider that if I had a job that routinely took me into a high-crime area, though. But I think even that isn't a good idea for most people unless you are very familiar with firearms. It's the people who aren't sure how to handle them that have the itchy, and inaccurate, trigger fingers.

[Galactus]

Keeping it showed down like that seems a recipe for it accidentally going off, so yes. (although if it was unloaded it would, of course, be a diffeent thing entirely)

But really, it's not as if I haven't hitchiked with someone on his way to the moose-hunt or anything like that.

[TheLoneliestMonk]

I'm willing to bet carrying a gun increases your likelyhood of being shot. Carrying a gun for protection is moronic and totally counter productive.

[Guest Raidne]

However, if I was hitch-hiking and the guy who offered me a lift had a gun sticking out of the front seat? Fuck that shit, no WAY would I accept that lift.

What on earth do you guys call tow trucks for?

Clearly, no, it was not a friend or relative, we were stranded on the Blue Ridge parkway in the middle of freaking nowhere, and this guy showed up to tow our car to the nearest dealership 30 miles away.

He was, incidentally, a ridiculously nice guy who told us all manner of entertaining stories.

So would you accept the ride or not?

[MinDonner]

Ah, sorry, missed the "tow" part of that, which puts a different complexion on things. Random stranger offering lift =/= professional who you have hired to perform a service. I'd probably accept, then. But only if there was really no choice; if it was in a less remote area I'd be pretty tempted to just try calling a different dealership whose employees were a little less cavalier about human life.

[Guest Raidne]

How does that equation work? Is the extent of disregard for human life equivalent to the number of firearms owned, or the manner in which they are stored, or what?

[Eyelesbarrow]

There is no equation involved. From my experience, a gun* in a public place makes everyone unsafe. A person with a gun whose emotions are running high will always hit and miss. I got a case once where a bad case of road rage escalated to murder/s. Guy got out with a gun, shot the other driver. Then he turned to the girl on the passenger seat and fired at her. The first shooting could be argued as a homicide, but the other one was clearly murder. There were several shots fired at this altercation which happened on a busy street on broad daylight. Any bystander could have been shot.

ETA

*Police I must say, would need weapons for their work. But based on what I've seen, they're sometimes worse than trained show-off gun owners.

[MinDonner]

Oh, I'm sure there's an equation in there somewhere, probably a very detailed technical one. However, at its most basic level, you can boil it down to not wanting to be in the same place with someone who thinks he might need to kill someone at any moment, and the means of him doing so. Call me weird, and all that.

[Guest Raidne]

How do you tell if someone thinks they're going to need to kill someone at any moment?

[MinDonner]

How do you tell if someone thinks they're going to need to kill someone at any moment?

Because he keeps a device for the sole purpose of killing people in a place where he can reach it within a fraction of a second?

[Eyelesbarrow]

The fact that you can't tell why/how/where/ anyone with a gun intends to use it is scary for me.

[IheartTesla]

I suppose this is one of those cases where the mindsets of Europeans and Americans are so different as to impede any kind of middle-ground conversation. Case in point, this tow truck driver probably goes to a lot of remote locations and backways. The gun is probably for his own protection in these less policed, rural areas - I'm not offering it as justification but rather as explanation. It isnt just urban areas that are prone to crime, you know.

Regarding racial panic, I dont have much sympathy for those kinds of reasons (obviously). Mainly because race-based crimes are quite rare and I'd imagine happen in high density population areas more often than not. A gun is just unsafe in such situations.

[peterbound]

There is no equation involved. From my experience, a gun* in a public place makes everyone unsafe. A person with a gun whose emotions are running high will always hit and miss. I got a case once where a bad case of road rage escalated to murder/s. Guy got out with a gun, shot the other driver. Then he turned to the girl on the passenger seat and fired at her. The first shooting could be argued as a homicide, but the other one was clearly murder. There were several shots fired at this altercation which happened on a busy street on broad daylight. Any bystander could have been shot.

ETA

*Police I must say, would need weapons for their work. But based on what I've seen, they're sometimes worse than trained show-off gun owners.

Oh no, not this conversation again :)