So I just had the shit beaten out of me

[Guest Raidne]

No, I do not think that a brawl, even unasked for, of 11 guys, about evenly split, is a good time to introduce firearms.

[delete this account pls]

Australia used to have a ton of guns before stricter laws were introduced i the 90s. And doesn't Canada have just as many guns per capita as the U.S? Some of European countries, like Switzerland, probably do as well. But none of them have anywhere near the same rate of gun related violence that the United States does. No first world nation does.

[S John]

Gun ownership is common in lots of countries in the west. The number of guns isn't the issue: The shockingly cavalier attitude towards using them is.

Gun culture in the US clearly has a downside, but I think that people often have a skewed view of how dangerous the US really is. The most recent numbers I could find in a quick search was 10,000 gun related homicides in 2005. That is a lot, way too many, but a pretty small percentage of the US population of over 300 million. In 2005 there were also over 40,000 deaths in the US from automobile accidents. So you are still 4 times more likely to be killed in your car than by a gun. In addition, the areas where homicides most often occur closely correspond to the poorest states/neighborhoods in the country. Take a look at a homicide map for any major US city and you'll see that the poorer areas are where the most homicides are concentrated... by far (Washington DC is a great example of this). And even then, homicide victims tend to be those who are involved in criminal activity. Per wiki:

People with a criminal record are also more likely to die as homicide victims.[11] Between 1990 and 1994, 75% of all homicide victims age 21 and younger in the city of Boston had a prior criminal record.[34] In Philadelphia, the percentage of those killed in gun homicides that had prior criminal records increased from 73% in 1985 to 93% in 1996.[11][35] In Richmond, Virginia, the risk of gunshot injury is 22 times higher for those males involved with crime.[36]

Taking DC for an example again. I would not be at all surprised to be robbed in DC, or maybe even roughed up a little. But typically, homicides are not aimed at people who are not involved in gangs / the drug trade. I am not trying to say that is OK in any, way, shape or form. Nor am I trying to say that there are no innocent victims of gun violence, nor am I saying that all criminal elements killed by guns 'deserved it'. At all. What I am trying to point out is that the US is not exactly the Wild West either. In 26 years of living in the US I've seen / participated in exactly 0 gun fights. For the vast majority of Americans, such an event would most certainly be a big deal and very much out of the ordinary. I get the feeling that a lot of furriners have the impression that the US is a society where everyone is constantly teetering on the edge of having a violent fit. Its not. I really don't go about my life worrying about who may or may not have a gun.

I think that is why Americans are so reluctant to give up their guns. They don't see themselves as a part of a violent culture. They don't see themselves as part of a problem. And in most cases, they aren't. You do get your occasional cowboy type who goes way too far into taking matters into their own hands. But I think that, as a society, regular Americans are unwilling to make the trade of giving up their firearm to help prevent cowboy types from having them. For better or worse, I think that is probably going to be the status quo for the foreseeable future.

[delete this account pls]

Johnnyboy ...

*squints*

Fill your hand you sonofabitch.

[cjfshaw]

shit dude sorry this happened to you. This is what, two threads in one year where a board member got beaten on the street? Rough break dude, least you don't have any permanent damage (hopefully) except maybe some scarring. So since you got the license plate number it's gotta be wicked easy for the cops to track them right? What's the word on that part of this situation?

[S John]

Johnnyboy ...

*squints*

Fill your hand you sonofabitch.

Hey now... I didn't even get to tell you that I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man!

[S John]

I'm confused... did you just challenge him to a game of Soggy Biscuit?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKThgLq21Rc

[Ski the Swift]

So since you got the license plate number it's gotta be wicked easy for the cops to track them right? What's the word on that part of this situation?

Still waiting to hear back from the police

[Guest Raidne]

John, IMHO, the difference, really, to put a finger on it, is that your average cowboy American sees no problem with the shooting death of a nonviolent property criminal, and everyone else in the world pretty much does.

Also, just a small quibble with one other thing - the people in this thread going on about the dangers of living in the United States are the ones carrying guns everywhere, not the other way around.

Having said that, I find Euro-style gun control to just as unacceptable as anyone else.

[Galactus]

Gun culture in the US clearly has a downside, but I think that people often have a skewed view of how dangerous the US really is. The most recent numbers I could find in a quick search was 10,000 gun related homicides in 2005. That is a lot, way too many, but a pretty small percentage of the US population of over 300 million. In 2005 there were also over 40,000 deaths in the US from automobile accidents. So you are still 4 times more likely to be killed in your car than by a gun. In addition, the areas where homicides most often occur closely correspond to the poorest states/neighborhoods in the country. Take a look at a homicide map for any major US city and you'll see that the poorer areas are where the most homicides are concentrated... by far (Washington DC is a great example of this). And even then, homicide victims tend to be those who are involved in criminal activity. Per wiki:

Sweden usually gets around 200 murders/year (that's "Murder, manslaughter and battery with deadly end"), a population of 9 million. So for 1/30 of the population we have 1/50th the murders. (and that's ALL murders in Sweden, not just gun-deaths)

And the point is precisely that the attitude is unwarranted, and probably costs more lives than it saves.

[Guest Raidne]

Also, John, for your age group, you're statistically less safe in Philadelphia than you would be as an American soldier serving in the Gulf.

[cjfshaw]

Also, John, for your age group, you're statistically less safe in Philadelphia than you would be as an American soldier serving in the Gulf.

lolwut? Where are you getting that from?

[Guest Raidne]

lolwut? Where are you getting that from?

Some other thread we posted awhile back...I can't find it now, but here is an article on the crime problem in Philadelphia.

In 2002, DC had a per capita murder rate of 45.8 per every 1,000, and in 1990, the death rate by murder in DC was three times greater than an American soldier serving in the Gulf according to this review.

Anyway, the comparison of homicide rates in major cities to soldiers serving in the Gulf War is popular in the media - just do a Google search and you'll get a bunch of stuff.

While I was perusing the statistics, I found out that:

For black males of all ages in the United States, homicide is the 4th leading cause of death at 5% - the same as stroke. For white males, suicide makes the top 10, but not homicide. And while accidents are the leading cause of death among teenagers, generally, homicide is the the leading cause of death for black males ages 12 to 19 years old.

By the way, homicide was also the second most common cause of death of pregnant women in the United States (1.7 per 1,000 live births in the US) at 31% of the sample. Accidents are the leading cause of death for that group at 44%. Narrow it to black women ages 25-29, and the rate increases 11 times.

A 2010 study found that homicide is now the leading cause of death of pregnant women.

Homicide is also the second leading cause of death while on the job for all Americans.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

John, IMHO, the difference, really, to put a finger on it, is that your average cowboy American sees no problem with the shooting death of a nonviolent property criminal, and everyone else in the world pretty much does.

Is the gun death rate in the U.S. really attributable to private citizens minding their own business who end up pulling guns and killing people about to start fights with them? I mean, that really doesn't seem to happen all that much where I live. But from the discussion here, it seems everyone thinks that suburban American cowboys are gunning each other down in shootouts all the time. The vast majority of violent gun deaths (as opposed to suicides or accidents) involve drugs or the criminal underclass.

[Galactus]

Is the gun death rate in the U.S. really attributable to private citizens minding their own business who end up pulling guns and killing people about to start fights with them? I mean, that really doesn't seem to happen all that much where I live. But from the discussion here, it seems everyone thinks that suburban American cowboys are gunning each other down in shootouts all the time. The vast majority of violent gun deaths (as opposed to suicides or accidents) involve drugs or the criminal underclass.

That's kind of the point though, let's say you wake up in the night from a sound grab your gun and shoot... Only to find out it was your daughter coming home late.

Would that be labelled as an "accident" or "violent gun death"?

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

That's kind of the point though, let's say you wake up in the night from a sound grab your gun and shoot... Only to find out it was your daughter coming home late.

Would that be labelled as an "accident" or "violent gun death"?

There are stats on that to. Are you claiming that is a significant factor in the U.S. gun death/homicide rate?

[Paxter]

Is the gun death rate in the U.S. really attributable to private citizens minding their own business who end up pulling guns and killing people about to start fights with them?

No, but doesn't allowing easy access to firearms for private citizens minding their own business also mean easy (or at least relatively easier) access for those involved with drugs/other criminal activities?

ETA: On re-reading your post, I might be speaking at cross-purposes here because I'm talking more about the pros/cons of firearm control in general rather than the use of firearms in situations like Ski's.

[Guest Raidne]

Is the gun death rate in the U.S. really attributable to private citizens minding their own business who end up pulling guns and killing people about to start fights with them?

Well, I'm sure I don't have the slightest idea. John said accounts of how dangerous the US is, compared to other places, are overblown, and I posted the above in order to provide a counterpoint to that particular assertion.

The vast majority of violent gun deaths (as opposed to suicides or accidents) involve drugs or the criminal underclass.

Violent gun deaths kill more black pregnant women than suicides or accidents.

Also, as stated above, I don't think people deserve to die just because they use (or even sell) drugs, or steal property, i.e. are members of the "criminal underclass."

[cjfshaw]

I don't think people deserve to die just because they use (or even sell) drugs, or steal property, i.e. are members of the "criminal underclass."

I really don't think that was anyone's point. The point was just that those are just the people who are typically involved in violent gun deaths.

[Guest Raidne]

Turns out that link I posted, however, does have some data:

The most commonly cited reason for homicide is argument (including arguments about money & property under the influence of alcohol or narcotics). One third of all homicides in 1997 were triggered by arguments.

Also, the region in the US with the highest homicide rate per capita, after Puerto Rico is East South Central (Alabama, Kentucky, Mississippi, and Tennessee).

A Scientific American article (June 1999) accounts for the high murder rates in the South on the grounds of a "culture of honor". A white man living in a small county in the South is four times more likely to kill than one living in a small county in the Midwest. Southerners showed higher levels of cortisol and testosterone in response to an insult. Murder rates due to arguments are higher in the South and Southwest, but murder rates associated with felony (robbery or burglary) are lower.

ETA: Cap, the assumption is that it somehow matters less if they are "criminals," but for me, a drug user is the same as any citizen. By the way, the most dangerous profession for exposing yourself for risk to homicide is "cab driver."