So I just had the shit beaten out of me

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

Well, I'm sure I don't have the slightest idea. John said accounts of how dangerous the US is, compared to other places, are overblown, and I posted the above in order to provide a counterpoint to that particular assertion.

Violent gun deaths kill more black pregnant women than suicides or accidents.

Also, as stated above, I don't think people deserve to die just because they use (or even sell) drugs, or steal property, i.e. are members of the "criminal underclass."

I mentioned the "criminal underclass" to refute any inference someone might draw that average violent American cowboys shoot lots of people in purported "self-defense", and that's why our gun death rates are high. I live in a city of 35,000 people, and there hasn't been a single homicide in 7 years. I don't want people who don't live here to think that you're going to get gunned down if you visit the U.S. because we're all waving guns wildly.

[Galactus]

I mentioned the "criminal underclass" to refute any inference someone might draw that average violent American cowboys shoot lots of people in purported "self-defense", and that's why our gun death rates are high. I live in a city of 35,000 people, and there hasn't been a single homicide in 7 years. I don't want people who don't live here to think that you're going to get gunned down if you visit the U.S. because we're all waving guns wildly.

And you think said "criminal underclass" are not americans, and would not argue PRECISELY like the people in this thread, for why they did what they did?

[Guest Raidne]

I don't want people who don't live here to think that you're going to get gunned down if you visit the U.S. because we're all waving guns wildly.

As stated, the most common cause of shooting deaths are arguments. So, as short guide for tourists, just avoid getting into arguments in the United States, particularly in the southeastern states, try not to get impregnated, and stay out of Detroit.

ETA: By the way, I doubt anyone reading this thread is getting that impression from anything I'm posting.

[Trebla]

I think people in this thread are more "scared" by other posters who are saying they have guns and WILL use them if they feel threatened.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

And you think said "criminal underclass" are not americans, and would not argue PRECISELY like the people in this thread, for why they did what they did?

Er, could you rephrase that in English please?

The only part of that I could follow was that I supposedly said that the "criminal underclass" are not Americans, which is patently false. I did imply that the "criminal underclass" were not average Americans, which I think is a pretty defensible statement.

[Guest Raidne]

Not to speak for Galactus, but I think what he meant is that "criminal underclass" is not exactly a reason for people to shoot each other, and that, in fact, feeling threatened is probably precisely why members of both the criminal underclass and "average America" often shoot at each other.

[slim da reaper]

I think people in this thread are more "scared" by other posters who are saying they have guns and WILL use them if they feel threatened.

Hilarious, ever heard of reasonable force? Drawing old coward from your holster when confronted by unarmed men who you should have a reasonable chance of beating the billy fuck out of, and if you can't then the problem is with you. Now if the odds are completely stacked against you, a gun is necessary.

[Guest Raidne]

Call me...(smart?) whatever you want, but even if some nefarious intruder should violate the sacrosanctness of my castle by breaking into my house with the intent of stealing my Nintendo Wii, I would probably waive my right as an American to engage in a deadly shoot out with them over my insured items and actually try to escape the premises if such a thing were possible.

Otherwise, I cannot mention enough times the utility of a recording of a pump action shotgun, combined with a call to 9-1-1.

[Nichole]

Ski, I'm glad it wasn't worse for you. That sounds like a horribly scary situation. I like Brady's advice about talking to someone about it. Being targeted like that would feel like a violation to me. I also hope they catch those mother fuckers. I hate to think of someone being so unable to control their anger and hurt someone being lose in society. :grouphug:

About guns: My husband and I have, as good Americans, discussed getting one. His reason is because a few years ago a good friend of his was killed by a home invader. My husband questions if having a gun could have saved his friend. It also frightened my husband greatly, he hates to think of someone breaking in while I'm alone and harming me. He hates to think of someone breaking in while he is there and he would be unable to defend me.

My take on it is, what happened to my husband's friend was completely random. Tragic, but random. Would a gun have helped? We'll never know. All getting a gun would do is serve us if something bad like that were to happen. And honestly, the thought of someone breaking in to my house is terrifying. But, I can't live my life in fear. I can't live wondering and fearing what might happen. That to me is why so many Americans get guns, the fear of what might happen. And I just don't want to live my life that way.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

. So, as short guide for tourists, just avoid getting into arguments in the United States, particularly in the southeastern states,

Heh. That's one reason why the Army of Northern Virginia was so damn tough. Lots of those deep South rebs. That may also be a reason why they are represented disproportionately in the Marines.

The biggest fight I was ever in started when an Air Force officer made the mistake of derisively referring to a deep South fellow Marine officer as "Home-Boy". It didn't go over very well. I didn't even know why we all were fighting until the next day.

and stay out of Detroit.

That's good advice.

[Horza]

What would they feel like after you killed someone over them?

[Elrostar]

I'm fairly sure most gun deaths are between people who already know each other. The danger of 'home invasions' has been pretty seriously overblown. But it's much safer and more fun to blame 'the criminal underclass' on problems than to consider that people we know might somehow do things that are bad.

I find an exact parallel in the overwhelming fear of 'internet child predators'. The vast majority of child abuse occurs from relatives, guardians, and friends of the family. But it's terrible to think that 'people like us' might be the kinds of people who commit these acts. It's easier to blame it on 'the other', in this case weirdos on the internet.

And wow is there something fantastic about me pointing this out... on an internet forum. Who says irony is dead?

[Tears of Lys]

As stated, the most common cause of shooting deaths are arguments. So, as short guide for tourists, just avoid getting into arguments in the United States, particularly in the southeastern states, try not to get impregnated, and stay out of Detroit.

Chicken!

I go to Detroit regularly and haven't been shot yet. :leaving:

[alguien]

Chicken!

I go to Detroit regularly and haven't been shot yet. :leaving:

Detroit metro, or actually Detroit?

I only ask because I've heard so many people say they're from Detroit only to find out they're from like West Bloomfield or something.

[Guest Raidne]

I can understand not getting into a fight over the Nintendo WII, or something similarly replaceable...but don't you have irreplaceable valuables? Or if you inherited a bunch of jewelry from your great-grandmother, would a similar bunch of diamonds and pearls mean the same thing to you?

Like, what, the Mona Lisa? You've got to be kidding me.

Chats, I, for one, am not kidding here - day after day after day I read about the toll that taking another human life has on the psyche. It's no joke. And I would have to guess that a solider who shoots someone who is actively trying to kill him would, if anything, have more potential to feel justified about it than our suburban defender. As the author of Julian Comstock put it, killing another person, no matter how justifiable, leaves an oily stain on your day to day existence that never washes off.

I doubt I would be at an astronomically higher rate of potential for suicide if I let a thief abscond with my engagement ring, etc.

So, even outside of the fact that I would not weigh the life of the neighborhood kid breaking into my house against heirloom jewelry, no matter how nice it is, because I'm not a sociopath, I would not do that to myself.

And even if you think you can justify it to yourself, i.e. act like a sociopath, your subconscious will betray you and you'll wake up screaming with nightmares about it until you feel otherwise.

I go to Detroit regularly and haven't been shot yet. :leaving:

I walked from St. Andrews to the Doubletree at 3am, but I wouldn't, you know, recommend it.

But yes, strictly speaking, it's still safe to say that upon entering the Detroit city limits, it's still more likely that you won't be shot at. Maybe they should use that as a slogan on the tourism materials. ;)

[Arlingzen Bill]

Heh. That's one reason why the Army of Northern Virginia was so damn tough. Lots of those deep South rebs. That may also be a reason why they are represented disproportionately in the Marines.

Have you considered the economic situation in the Deep South? The military is the way to get out and get ahead. There are similar areas all over the country. Central WI is a poor rural area, 1/3 to 1/2 of many graduating classes still actively consider the military despite multiple wars. AND the Iron Brigade from the Midwest kicked the crap out of the Confederate units they faced...the message don't fuck with the farmers.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

Have you considered the economic situation in the Deep South? The military is the way to get out and get ahead. There are similar areas all over the country. Central WI is a poor rural area, 1/3 to 1/2 of many graduating classes still actively consider the military despite multiple wars.

Fair point, but being motivated to enter the military due to financial circumstances isn't quite the same as being predisposed to be a good soldier. And there are other areas that are just as bad economically or worse economically that don't have equivalent recruitment rates.

AND the Iron Brigade from the Midwest kicked the crap out of the Confederate units they faced...the message don't fuck with the farmers.

True enough. Western union units tended to perform better than units recruited from the east in general. That being said, good ole boys seem to like fighting.

Here's an interesting article about the demographics of military recruits, noting the disproportionate southern military representation, though some northern states had very high rates as well.

http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2005/11/who-bears-the-burden-demographic-characteristics-of-us-military-recruits-before-and-after-9-11

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

Chats, I, for one, am not kidding here - day after day after day I read about the toll that taking another human life has on the psyche. It's no joke.

I think Chat's point is that it goes beyond the material value of the thing being stolen. The emotional reaction to having your car stolen or broken into is different than if it is damaged in an accident. To me, when someone breaks into your home, they are stealing your sense of security and peace. They are consciously asserting a right to break into the home you have bought and worked for, disregarding whatever effort and sacrifices you have made. It is a breach of a fundamental requirement for us all to live together in peace, not just the loss of a Wii.

I understand completely that you still wouldn't agree that it's justified, but I do think it's more than the dollar value of a physical thing that is at stake.

I paid my own way through law school, and had to live pretty sparsely to afford it. Everything I owned could fit in my car. One night, someone broke into my card and tried to steal my not-expensive car stereo. The guy ran off when we flipped on the lights, but I was far more outraged and upset about the damage he did then when my car was totaled in a wreck with a deer later that fall. The deer was an accident. But this guy trying to steal my stereo was stating via his actions that he didn't believe I had a right to even the few things I had. He had the right to take it simply because he wanted it. And it is that mindset and attitude, that lack of respect for the right of other people to live in peace, that is so damn infuriating.

And I would have to guess that a solider who shoots someone who is actively trying to kill him would, if anything, have more potential to feel justified about it than our suburban defender.

I'm not so sure about that at all. In my mind, the average enemy upon whom I fired was just a guy doing what his superiors told him to do. Given his own choice, I'd have guessed a lot of them would rather have been sitting at home and not in the middle of a war. Intel we got -- and enemy surrender rates -- provide some verification of that.

But the criminal is making a very conscious decision to invade your home, of his/her own free will. No draft, etc. There is clear immorality in what the criminal is doing versus the soldier.

[Kelli Fury]

I can understand not getting into a fight over the Nintendo WII, or something similarly replaceable...but don't you have irreplaceable valuables? Or if you inherited a bunch of jewelry from your great-grandmother, would a similar bunch of diamonds and pearls mean the same thing to you?

Call me wussy for it if you want (I think I'm probably about as far from wussy as one can get, myself), but there is nothing I own that I value so much that I would shoot or be shot over it. I have heirloom jewelry from my grandmother, whom I love, but that stuff is material. I will still have the memory of her giving it to me, of my relationship with her. The things that make the object valuable don't go away if someone takes it. The vast majority of people who break into people's homes aren't looking to do unsuspecting strangers harm, they're looking for valuables and guns. That's right, kids, if you have a gun, especially a handgun in your house- that is the thing someone breaking in most wants to steal. If it's somewhere you have quick and easy access to it, they probably do also, if it's not, it won't be of use to you in that situation, either. Someone breaking into your house is already very tense, the less smoothly the robbery goes, the more dangerous the situation is for you. Even if they have a gun, it's unlikely they mean to use it, but if you pull one on them, they probably will. It's just a bad strategy. If you really want to prevent home invasions, know what will be far more helpful than a gun? A noisy dog. Nobody wants to break into the house with the dog that wakes up the neighborhood if a mouse farts, but exactly the worst kind of intruder wants to break in all the more to steal your guns, which are unregistered to them, free, and usable in more crimes or easily sold to others.

[awesome possum]

I fully support the cowboy attitude, except the part about guns. If you carry a gun on your persons at all times and don't live in a horrible ghetto or warzone, you're pussy. It has nothing to do with the 2nd amendment and everything to do with you being scared of everything around you.

Learn how to protect yourself using your hands, feet, arms, and legs. The quickest way to defuse an angry asshole that is bound and determined to fight is taking him to the ground and wrapping him up. If you don't know how to do this, learn it, especially if you happen to go out into elements where you might need the skill one day.

If you're confronted by a group of angry assholes determined to fight and you're alone, start running and call the cops.

A gun never solves a problem. It only escalates them.