Towers of Midnight

[Old Nan]

So RJ a more mature writer? Only in possibly his mastery of prose, certainly not in characterization or plot.

I don't disagree with that. Actually, I do disagree about "characterization" taken as a whole, though the gender-wars braid-tugging Mars-Venus crap is this close to ruining the whole thing; Sanderson's characters in TGS acted more like adult humans, but I think Jordan's were more individually unique–and not just in their garments. And the breadth of life experience Jordan had over Sanderson does come through in the oddest of places, but it is unfortunately usually in the small things and not the big ones.

But yeah, WOT is not "mature" in the sense of being heavily intellectual or literary or morosely realist or what have you.

[Humble Asskicker]

*and a quick note, I may not be very good about responding to any comments here - I generally avoid WOT threads here due to the vitriol one must wade through

:lol:

That's what keeps me coming back (obviously, considering my thread subtitle).

I probably would have quit my reread of the series if I didn't have threads like these to fume about the really irritating aspects. I know it gets better (and it becomes great again with book 12), but right now it's hard to keep that in mind when reading hundreds of pages of stuff that's just plain boring to read about.

The carrot is tasting enough that I keep running, but man, the going is tough right now.

And that's why comments like these:

But RJ sure as hell wouldn't have written that last scene on Dragonmount as Sanderson did.

Are part and parcel the reason why I'm glad it is Sanderson writing.

By the way, do you have a reference for Sanderson remarking his dislike of Cadsuane?

[Old Nan]

By the way, do you have a reference for Sanderson remarking his dislike of Cadsuane?

Here you go.

[David Selig]

So he has the same opinion on Cadsuane as the vast majority of the readers. Burn him on the stake! He didn't kill her slowly or painfully (a real shame there, the moment Semirhage go away, I started hoping that she will find Cadsuane and get her revenge in style) or even had her humiliated her much.The Tam incident in the end was totally convincing to me, given that she thought her plan has backfired and Rand is close to going over the edge.

BTW, from the quotes in the link it seemed as though the Cadsuane spanking Semirhage scene was actually written by Jordan - "Jordan wanted in the books so it stayed" (not exactly a surprise given how often this method of punishment has been mentioned before), so if you want to blame someone. Though of course, you can make the case he would've developed it better, which could well be true.

But this is getting tiresome. The guessing game who wrote what, to what extend and who gets the more credit is quite pointless. I judge TGS and the will judge on their own merit, not on how much they resemble earlier books in style or Sanderson's other work.

[Old Nan]

BTW, from the quotes in the link it seemed as though the Cadsuane spanking Semirhage scene was actually written by Jordan - "Jordan wanted in the books so it stayed" (not exactly a surprise given how often this method of punishment has been mentioned before), so if you want to blame someone. Though of course, you can make the case he would've developed it better, which could well be true.

Oh, I'm not in the least bit surprised Jordan was the source of the spanking, and I doubt he could have made the scene any more palatable. If it makes Sanderson cringe, well, it makes me cringe too. I'm just curious that HA liked her characterization in a book in which one of her most memorable scenes was so cringeworthy.

I also am not quite sure that her binding Tam al'Thor with the One Power was quite in-character, but the very first thing that comes to mind when thinking of Cadsuane in TGS is spanking Semirhage.

[Gertrude]

Edit: and yea to whoever just wants the plot points check-list, why buy the book? If all I wanted to know is what happens I'd save myself 12 hours of brick reading and go to wikipedia or encyclopaedia-wot if I wanted more detail.

I think this was partially directed at me too so I will give my perspective. What has kept my interest in the series so far is the story. I didn't have an attachment to Jordan's writing style and the only Sanderson I know is from tGS. So mainly I just meant I don't care who writes it, as long as it is competent. The story is the most important thing to me. It would be no fun to read a bullet point checklist of plot points - it takes all the fun out of it.

[Humble Asskicker]

pat,

You are a hater if that's your preference. The ideal book order, as every non-hater knows, is:

The Shadow Rising

The Great Hunt

The Eye of the World

The Gathering Storm

The Dragon Reborn

Lord of Chaos

Fires of Heaven

Knife of Dreams

Crown of Swords

Path of Daggers

Winter's Heart

Crossroad of Twilight

Oh, I'm not in the least bit surprised Jordan was the source of the spanking, and I doubt he could have made the scene any more palatable. If it makes Sanderson cringe, well, it makes me cringe too. I'm just curious that HA liked her characterization in a book in which one of her most memorable scenes was so cringeworthy.

I didn't like the spanking scene at all. I ripped on it in another protracted debate with fion several months ago.

I could see RJ writing Cads in the Tam scene without acknowledging that she was a big bully. Normally she would retort to his remark with her standard "someone needs a spanking."

Her willingness to admit that maybe she wasn't the infallible source of wisdom, whose word everyone should heed without question is what I found an improvement.

RJ may have been a fan of his harridan aunt, but as far as I know, women who act like Cads are usually the women that are old and alone and everyone avoids like the plague. No one likes assholes, whatever their age or gender.

[Old Nan]

In SR, she explains that she doesn't have to see a weave to slice through it. Fair enough. But, in FoH, Lanfear repeatedly slices Rand's weaves of Air clubs. How? How does she see it coming? A shield, sure, I get it. She knows where her connection is. Air holding her against the wall, she can feel that too.

But a club of Air, what, did Rand make it visible for her? Is it the only Air weave that's opaque? He laments in his head that he could end it by weaving lightening, wouldn't she slice that too? What am I not seeing here?

I think she was using a weave like the one discovered in KoD that allows you to counter male channeling. Romanda mentions it, as does Elayne. She was probably far better at it than any Aes Sedai.

I'd assume it was a reactive shield of some sort, not unlike the ones used to block lightning weaves, etc.

I'm going to retract that answer. I'm almost certain it has to do with a ter'angreal she's wearing, either her hairpiece or her belt. The Cadsuane discussion triggered my memory a bit, I guess; she wears a more limited version.

[Poobah]

That's true enough. (Graendal thinks "She’d done evil works in the Great Lord’s name" ... I mean, Jesus Christ, come on)

Wow is that actually a real quotation? Oh dear, this does NOT bode well for my enjoyment of ToM. Maybe I should hit the wikipedia summary :(

Here you go.

These quotations kinda show Sanderson to be... a fan. I know he always said he was but meh. And I really mean that in a negative way. The "ahh I'm writing this now so I can punish that character I always hated" way. So of Cads gets balefired or whatever I'll wonder if it's just Sanderson putting that in y'know. Gotta punish the mean, arrogant old witch /eyeroll.

And well about the Semirhage scene. I have to say that the fact that it made him cringe is probably why it makes us all cringe. I think it ties in to kinda the point that KCF was refuting but which I agree with: Sanderson's writing is YA really, it's more sterile, more black-and-white in terms of morality and characterisation and over all less subtle. He said that couldn't write that scene without cringing, but frankly I would go so far to say that he just couldn't write that scene period. TOR should have gotten Jacqueline Carey to write it then, putting aside all the fucking spanking debates, if any scene in the entire of WoT was going to have supposed to have absolutely blatant BDSM-y overtones it was that one and I don't think there can be any argument there.

Fuck it I dunno. I don't really like to leave negative comments like this, especially if there's a chance that the author I'm being critical of might read my comments. Brandon if you're reading this thread then I'm sorry, but well, the thread has kinda gone here and there can't really be much but polarisation when it comes to this subject. Some are going to love and some hate the style transition, and I guess that makes me a hater.

[kuenjato]

pat,

You are a hater if that's your preference. The ideal book order, as every non-hater knows, is:

The Shadow Rising

The Great Hunt

The Eye of the World

The Gathering Storm

The Dragon Reborn

Lord of Chaos

Fires of Heaven

Knife of Dreams

Crown of Swords

Path of Daggers

Winter's Heart

Crossroad of Twilight

I find that 100% accurate to my tastes, except I haven't read TGS. LoC and FoH are interchangable, IMO, due to the massive amounts of bloat in both novels coupled with a handful of key scenes.

[Liadin]

The Shadow Rising

The Great Hunt

The Eye of the World

The Gathering Storm

The Dragon Reborn

Lord of Chaos

Fires of Heaven

Knife of Dreams

Crown of Swords

Path of Daggers

Winter's Heart

Crossroad of Twilight

No way in hell tGS comes before TDR. Stick it below FoH and I'd agree with you. Or, I dunno, maybe I'm just a hater. ;)

[Liadin]

Sorry to follow up on my own post like this, but about Cadsuane. I read the Jordan and Sanderson quotes and it's an interesting thing. I see where Jordan's coming from and I see some evidence of what he says he's trying to do with the character. He says, more or less, that she's one of those hardass parental figures that you nevertheless really want to please because their respect is worth more for being hard to earn, and they'll treat you like an adult if you win it. Most of us have known people like this, and often they do come across as jerks at first (or forever if you're not favorably disposed toward the person. They're polarizing types). But they're actually good for you and you wind up loving them.

While I see the seeds of this in Cadsuane, though, that's really not how her characterization came across to me--nor to most people it seems, including Sanderson. It's interesting to think about why. When I think about Cadsuane's behavior toward Rand, there's one scene that stands out for me; they're in a roomful of people, his temper is short, and when he yells at people she's like, "One." "Two." "Three." And then she spanks him with Air or something, in front of the roomful of people. Which.... totally inappropriate. This is not how you treat an adult protegee. Hell, for a lot of people it's not how you treat a kid, but with an adult you'd castigate them in private, or at most say "Rand!" and glare at them.

At any rate, it's interesting that Jordan writes about behavior that he evidently finds endearing, but that comes across as totally inappropriate and childish to most of the readers. Perhaps it's partially because he was significantly older than the vast majority of the readership? Maybe he identified more with the elderly Cadsuane, while the rest of us identified more readily with the 20-something Rand, especially since so many of us started the series as teenagers. And so we missed whatever he found amusing about the situation.

Alternatively, can anybody on here tell me whether Cadsuane's style of public rebuke would be considered acceptable in the military? That's the only place I can think of where Jordan might have picked it up--in which case, maybe he's analogizing Cadsuane to Rand's lieutenant or something, where we're seeing an elderly woman who appears several books in and certainly isn't part of any hierarchy that Rand signed up for.

Ultimately I think it's hard not to sympathize with Rand in this (although I maybe sympathize with him more than a lot of people?): he's going through a lot of shit, and then she shows up and follows him around acting like a jerk. Sure, she means well, but it's like when you're putting on a brave face about something and somebody thinks you're being too flippant and proceeds to yell at you about how dangerous/important/etc. this is, when that's the last thing you need. I have no doubt that, given that RJ is the master of the WoT universe, Cadsuane's "tutelage" will wind up being helpful to Rand in the end, but I have a hard time swallowing that; it seems to me that she doesn't understand what he needs and that to the extent that she does, she's going about helping in the wrong way.

[Humble Asskicker]

LoC and FoH are interchangable, IMO, due to the massive amounts of bloat in both novels coupled with a handful of key scenes.

I'm mostly in agreement there. The only thing that really put FoH bellow LoC, for me, was the Nynaeve-Elayne sequence (not limited to the circus) and the Siuan sequence. I hate the Elayne-Nynaeve portion of the book; it's where the flaws really started showing. It addresses mostly minor plot points (Masema, forkroot, Galad) and is so, boring and painful. And it's such a big part of the book. In the Siuan sections, Logain is great but everyone else is annoying. And then when the other Aes Sedai are brought in, suddenly 90% of the cast of the sequence ar intolerably grating. Everything else about FoH is awesome though, and it moves a lot of things forward towards the end.

In LoC, the flaws that were pretty exclusive to the Elayne-Nynaeve and Siuan sections percolate into every other story sequence, which is a big negative. However, I felt that the Elayne-Nynaeve and portions were much better. And a lot of cool things happen to mitigate the slow sections. Healing stilling; Rand's bonding to Alanna and the wonderful depiction of how far he'd come since he first started channeling by how effectively he handles them; the reunion with the Two Rivers girls; Taim's introduction and the evolution of the Black Tower; Egwene as Amyrlin; Eldar Haman, who's a great character, and the revisiting of Shadar Logoth; Rand messing with the Aes Sedai, his capture, and Dumai's Wells. That puts it over the top for me, despite its flaws.

No way in hell tGS comes before TDR. Stick it below FoH and I'd agree with you.

As much as I like TDR, it belongs under TGS. TDR has a few things to its advantage: It take the very interesting concept of making the main character of the last two books have almost no appearance, and makes it work. It is also back before Perrin was butchered into an uxorious carapace and was one of the better characters. And it has Mat, who amazingly became the best character in the book, after being something of an annoying character for the previous two books. And it has Moiraine, the best female character in the series by far. It also has the long awaited climax of Rand taking power after running for so long.

However, TGS has an edge on TDR for a number of reasons. First, and most important for me, is that it made WoT a wonderful reading experience once again, after over a decade of disappointment. Other important positives: Rand is better in this book than any other of the series. All of the annoyances that riddled his character disappear (whining about how women shouldn't be killed, going on about being "hard" without any indication that that is remotely the case; engaging in the laughably juvenile romance with his harem) and his pain and suffering come to the forefront, and is very poignant and believable. He does so much cool shit in consequence that every chapter involving his character is a treat, and the climax of his story is perfect and incredibly moving.

The same with Egwene. It's enjoyable watching her character do the Gandhi thing and having a huge impact on a broken system, but at the same time realizing - as has been pointed out - that there's probably more to the story than the superficial layer might indicate (Egwene's tenacious grip on archaic and dysfunctional rituals - and cavalier willingness to abrogate them at her advantage - are at odds with her apparent success so far). And the Seanchan battle is fantastic and incredibly satisfying.

The positives weigh in TGS favor by a fair margin, in my opinion. As for the negatives. Well, Siuan is a bore to read about, Mat is off to a distracting degree, and Gawain continues to be walking dickhead but is given a lot more time in the book than in other books.

The negatives of TDR is the Nynaeve-Elayne-Egwene sequence. It's really hard to read through their constant bitchiness. It isn't as bad as it became circa FoH, but it's pretty bad, and it's a significant part of the book. To me, this is a sufficient negative, without enough of the positive, to put it below TGS. TDR's a really good book, but TGS is better.

[Old Nan]

Wow is that actually a real quotation?

That was from the prologue of TGS.

Perhaps it's partially because he was significantly older than the vast majority of the readership? Maybe he identified more with the elderly Cadsuane, while the rest of us identified more readily with the 20-something Rand, especially since so many of us started the series as teenagers.

I find it hard to credit that Jordan doesn't write one of the main characters of a heroic fantasy epic as mostly sympathetic, even one like this which is in many ways a deconstruction of heroic fantasy. Crazy or not, Rand's the savior of the universe and Cadsuane's a second-tier character introduced in the seventh novel. I suspect it's part and parcel of the separate-but-equal gender-wars attitude he had (certainly not to the extent his characters exhibit, but it comes through loud and clear in the quotes). Cadsuane's a southern matriarch type.

No way in hell tGS comes before TDR.

Of course it does. TSR, KOD, LOC, TFOH, TPOD/WH/COT good storylines, ACOS, TGH, TGS, TDR, TPOD/WH/COT bad storylines, EOTW. See?

[Old Nan]

I'm mostly in agreement there. The only thing that really put FoH bellow LoC, for me, was the Nynaeve-Elayne sequence (not limited to the circus)

That was one of the best parts of the series!

[pat5150]

Sanderson still has trouble when it comes to conveying the emotional impact of certain scenes...

That's too bad, really, but there is no helping it. :frown5:

Patrick

[Lightning Lord]

I'm going to retract that answer. I'm almost certain it has to do with a ter'angreal she's wearing, either her hairpiece or her belt. The Cadsuane discussion triggered my memory a bit, I guess; she wears a more limited version.

Spamming cut weaves seems a tad unlikely, given that she would have to be doing so in about 40 different directions. She knew Rand was channeling, so being able to detect the direction of the channeling...I guess could make sense? It's incredible contrived that she found a ter'angreal that would do that. Moiraine could have set it up because of her rings-knowledge, but she never thinks about it.

Does anyone have a quote for the "weave that counters male channeling"? That's a ridiculous uber-weave kind of thing if it exists.

Still seems like I really need to reach to make this believable, even if one of the above methods were in mind at the time.

[Old Nan]

She knew Rand was channeling, so being able to detect the direction of the channeling...I guess could make sense? It's incredible contrived that she found a ter'angreal that would do that.

No, I think she has a ter'angreal that either makes weaves of saidin visible (despite her claim that she "doesn't need to" see them, since she's always tried to up the mysterious factor) outright or copies the more simplistic functionality of Cadsuane's ornaments, i.e. the direction of the weave and perhaps the elemental flow being used. As for where she got them, the Eelfinn come to mind, if it isn't just an Age of Legends artifact like Cadsuane's. It's the sort of thing you can imagine being mass-produced in a magical war.

Does anyone have a quote for the "weave that counters male channeling"?

In KOD, whichever chapter it is that Merise and Jahar meet the rebel Aes Sedai, one of them tests a weave that allows them to sense a flow of saidin, but not very much (if anything) beyond that.

[Lightning Lord]

No, I think she has a ter'angreal that either makes weaves of saidin visible (despite her claim that she "doesn't need to" see them, since she's always tried to up the mysterious factor) outright or copies the more simplistic functionality of Cadsuane's ornaments, i.e. the direction of the weave and perhaps the elemental flow being used. As for where she got them, the Eelfinn come to mind, if it isn't just an Age of Legends artifact like Cadsuane's. It's the sort of thing you can imagine being mass-produced in a magical war.

In KOD, whichever chapter it is that Merise and Jahar meet the rebel Aes Sedai, one of them tests a weave that allows them to sense a flow of saidin, but not very much (if anything) beyond that.

The Eelfin? Why would they give Lanfear anything, especially before she goes through their magical doorway? Mass-produced, it kind of makes sense, but it has never been mentioned that such a thing exists. None of the Forsaken PoVs in epilogues and prologues etc have ever mentioned them, iirc.

[Old Nan]

The theory would be that she would have visited the Eelfinn before. In any case, there is something suspicious about the silver belt and crescent hairpiece she's invariably described as wearing. In WOT, if a character is always wearing the same clothes, there's bound to be a reason.

As for your second objection, Semirhage recognized the ter'angreal Cadsuane wore, which is actually somewhat more advanced in that it has inbuilt weave-nullifying defensive capabilities, as does Nynaeve's.