Towers of Midnight

[Humble Asskicker]

Continued.

Less than a month to go.

Edit: Yes, he recues it. I stand by my subtitle.

[Poobah]

That's a little harsh. And lol.

[The Evil Hat]

Bit of a provocative title, but I guess it should provoke something entertaining, at the least. Even if we had the same debate two pages before the end of the last thread.

[Rhom]

I will heartily agree with the subtitle.

[Renasko]

For an incompetent writer, he sure did sell well. Balefire is on it's way.

[Slick Mongoose]

Said like someone who's just reread Path of Daggers. :P

[Gertrude]

I give full credit to RJ for the story, the world building, the main plot points and the OMG moments that we've had and will have in the future. However, I can't help but wish that he'd remained the idea man behind the scenes and left the writing to someone else all along, or at least found a different editor to work with. Harriet may be a very fine editor, but in this instance, no. He needed someone who wasn't afraid to tell him to cut the crap.

[The Evil Hat]

For an incompetent writer, he sure did sell well. Balefire is on it's way.

Exactly. Because Goodkind is a genre great. He sells well, after all.

I'm not trying to say anything bad about Jordan, here, just saying that that's a terrible argument.

[David Selig]

Jordan was really competent at the start (first 5-6 volumes) and got the readers so addicted he could sell any drivel to them in huge numbers. It's amazing that even after 3 successive terrible volumes (8 to 10) the next one was still a #1 bestseller.

[Gertrude]

It's because the core of the story was good and people wanted to see how it went. That was my motivation, anyway. I never read it because of Jordan's prose - it was fine, but not what kept me interested.

[Old Nan]

I guess I'm not harsh enough with the suppurating shitpile that was The Gathering Storm. Time to turn up the rhetoric, match fire with fire (I mean, not much I can say to answer our humble friend's cry of "glad that fucker's dead", but I can try).

Still, written on a level par with Run Spot Run or no, Sanderson's crap was better than The Eye of the World, if barely. I've just finished a reread of EotW and moved on to TGH, and if TGH is boring at least it isn't boring and largely incoherent the way Eye was. I have no idea how this crap sold well enough to get all the way through The Dragon Reborn, before the good stuff kicks in with The Shadow Rising. I can name five Goodkind and three Erikson books I'd rather read for eternity than any one of these hackjobs, and it's a shame I still have to chug through Crossroads and The Gathering First Draft.

[Humble Asskicker]

Bit of a provocative title, but I guess it should provoke something entertaining, at the least. Even if we had the same debate two pages before the end of the last thread.

We've had the same debate for the last two years, even before TGS was published. Can't expect to stop it now.

But the subtitle wasn't meant to provoke debate. It was meant to be taken as a given, and then we proceed directly to the anticipation of ToM because the samples thus far have been pretty damn neat-o.

I can name five Goodkind and three Erikson books I'd rather read for eternity than any one of these hackjobs, and it's a shame I still have to chug through Crossroads and The Gathering First Draft.

I don't care how much you dislike RJ or Sanderson's works, comparing anything in the negative to Erikson is flat-out blasphemy. Goodkind is a near thing, but Erikson, man. That's cruel and unusual.

[Old Nan]

I didn't say those books included Kruppe or the Mhybe. At least not much Kruppe, since Gardens would certainly be among them.

[Werthead]

I guess I'm not harsh enough with the suppurating shitpile that was The Gathering Storm. Time to turn up the rhetoric, match fire with fire (I mean, not much I can say to answer our humble friend's cry of "glad that fucker's dead", but I can try).

Someone said that? Interesting, as that should have warranted an instant post deletion and a warning. Perhaps this thread requires closer moderation.

I give full credit to RJ for the story, the world building, the main plot points and the OMG moments that we've had and will have in the future. However, I can't help but wish that he'd remained the idea man behind the scenes and left the writing to someone else all along, or at least found a different editor to work with. Harriet may be a very fine editor, but in this instance, no. He needed someone who wasn't afraid to tell him to cut the crap.

One day, readers will eventually understand that editors don't have unchallengeable authority over a book and there is a limit on what they can ask the author to do and not do. If a book sucks, the primary fault always lies with the author. The editor's influence is a great deal more limited than what people seem to imagine. If the author refuses to carry out the editor's recommendation and, for example, the editor refuses to publish the book (a decision usually above their pay grade), then the author can sue the publisher for breach of contract.

For example, Goodkind boasts frequently that he rejected every single editing request made of him by his publishers, aside from one that he gave in on because the editor hounded him so much over it. When that editor moved on, he reversed the edit in the next edition of the book.

[Shryke]

/looks at subtitle

/looks at thread starter

Oh, pfft, that explains that.

[fionwe1987]

Moronic subtitle

:bs:

And yes, the irony was intended. :P

For example, Goodkind boasts frequently that he rejected every single editing request made of him by his publishers, aside from one that he gave in on because the editor hounded him so much over it. When that editor moved on, he reversed the edit in the next edition of the book.

Out of curiousity... what was that edit?

[Shryke]

Jordan was really competent at the start (first 5-6 volumes) and got the readers so addicted he could sell any drivel to them in huge numbers. It's amazing that even after 3 successive terrible volumes (8 to 10) the next one was still a #1 bestseller.

8-10 especially aren't so much an editing thing as an example of what happens when an author sticks to a schedule to the detriment of the work.

Rereading PoD and WH especially, it's really obvious it's like half a book each. It's a bit ramblier (but this had been going on since at least LoC) but mostly there's just not much there. The books are really bloody short and feel half-complete.

I imagine it's like what you'd get if GRRM had just pushed book 4 of ASOIAF out the door after 2 years of writing.

[pat5150]

I give full credit to RJ for the story, the world building, the main plot points and the OMG moments that we've had and will have in the future. However, I can't help but wish that he'd remained the idea man behind the scenes and left the writing to someone else all along, or at least found a different editor to work with. Harriet may be a very fine editor, but in this instance, no. He needed someone who wasn't afraid to tell him to cut the crap.

An editor who wasn't married to him was what he needed the most, I think. . .

Patrick

[Analu]

An editor who wasn't married to him was what he needed the most, I think. . .

I've always wondered how Jordan felt about books like "Winter's Heart" or "Crossroads". Afterwards, was he fully aware of the bloat and meandering storyline and critical of his efforts there, or was he still too in love with his words to even notice? I've also wondered if younger readers (early-mid teens) found books 8-10 more enjoyable than older fans. I remember, for a while, trying to puzzle out whether books 8-10 were really bad or I was just outgrowing them. I finally decided it was probably a combination of both.

Anyways, it's hard for me to believe that this series will be finishing up sometime next year. I've been reading this series for 15 years, almost 2/3 of my life. I'd say there was a solid 5 year span where I would've stabbed anyone in the eye who dared question whether there was a better epic fantasy series around. I practically memorized certain scenes in "The Shadow Rising" and "Fires of Heaven".

/reminiscing

[Humble Asskicker]

Someone said that? Interesting, as that should have warranted an instant post deletion and a warning. Perhaps this thread requires closer moderation.

If the humble friend is supposed to be me, I don't know what the dude is talking about. I've been saying for a while that it's a godsend that Sanderson took over, but that doesn't mean that I'm in any sense happy about RJ's tragic death. RJ as a person seemed like a very decent sort, and there's really nothing good about the way he went.

If RJ could have recovered from his illness and just relinquished the writing to a ghost writer while he plotted the outline, that would have been fantastic.

In any event, even I'm not a big enough asshole to say "I'm happy the fucker's dead" or what not, for anyone short of a person talking during a movie.

/looks at subtitle

/looks at thread starter

Oh, pfft, that explains that.

:lol: And the same explanation applies to this post.