Towers of Midnight

[Shryke]

These aren't subtleties. These are clearly spelled out. It's hard to miss them when Egwene's sequence is pretty much a hundred pages or so passage explaining in detail what you just went over.

And neither does it account for my objections.

It's really not spelled out at all. Sitters are mentioned by names but unless you've remembered/kept track of who's working for whom, all the subtleties are lost. Why does Sitter X vote and not Sitter Y? None of that is covered directly in the text. Largely because, while Egwene can anticipate their reactions based on previous experience, she doesn't actually know WHY alot of them behave the way they do. She doesn't know who are the Tower spies or who are the Black Ajah and so on.

I said retch. Delana vomits and other Aes Sedai retch, or look like they're about to. Delana's puking is understandable (to some extent, and being gracious about it). The rest of the Aes Sedai's reactions are not.

Most of the Sitters either take it calmly (Lelaine and Romanda just brush it aside as if it's nothing till Egwene slaps them down). A few look a bit disturbed, but that's mostly because they are now locked in to a civil war and they are not looking forward to it. None of their reactions are anywhere near as extreme as Delana's.

Also it is as if Elaida intentionally fritters away her support.

Elaida is actually very intersting on reread. At first, her later changes to megalomania seem a bit abrupt. But if you actually read her earlier POVs, you realise that she's always been that way. She's a nasty, powerhungry woman. She projects an air of authority and niceness to those close to her and the like, but she is NOT a nice lady and her frittering away her support with here pettiness is very in character.

[Gertrude]

The seeds of Elaida was there, but even being a power hungry megalomaniac from the get-go doesn't excuse the way she goes about it and just snaps. It cheapens Egwene's victory because there is just no pretending that Elaida is a viable alternative. It would have been much more interesting to see the Sisters finally realizing what Elaida really is instead of watching her melt down and self-destruct for all to see.

[Liadin]

It's really not spelled out at all. Sitters are mentioned by names but unless you've remembered/kept track of who's working for whom, all the subtleties are lost. Why does Sitter X vote and not Sitter Y? None of that is covered directly in the text.

And this is a good thing how? I found it annoying. It's one thing to keep secrets from the reader if the POV characters don't know either, but expecting us to keep track of the allegiances of 1000 characters isn't a mark of good writing in my book.

[Shryke]

The seeds of Elaida was there, but even being a power hungry megalomaniac from the get-go doesn't excuse the way she goes about it and just snaps. It cheapens Egwene's victory because there is just no pretending that Elaida is a viable alternative. It would have been much more interesting to see the Sisters finally realizing what Elaida really is instead of watching her melt down and self-destruct for all to see.

I agree on that. The scene went further then I would have wanted it to (though I think it's still fully believable for the character). I also think Elaida getting captured by the Seanchan is a cheap cop-out (unless something further develops from it. Which it very well could since I can easily see Tuon using a leashed Elaida in talking to/bargaining with the White Tower)

I was more thinking of earlier developments, like in previous books or earlier in TGS. It's one of the things that at first I thought came out of the blue, but on a reread you can really see where it comes from. It's made even more clear if you read New Spring.

As a side note and sort of a similar situation to Elaida's fate, I actually liked Galina's fate at the end of KoD. I like that Rand never gets revenge on her and may never know what happened to her.

[Shryke]

And this is a good thing how? I found it annoying. It's one thing to keep secrets from the reader if the POV characters don't know either, but expecting us to keep track of the allegiances of 1000 characters isn't a mark of good writing in my book.

How isn't it a good thing? It's POV writing. That's how it works. It rewards paying attention, just like any good book. (Including ASOIAF)

On the surface, you can assume some people are just really mad at Elaida or the like, but on a more careful read you realise there are far more layers to what's going on then are first evident.

I didn't think saying this sort of thing is at least part of what makes good writing good would be controversial.

[Gertrude]

I like the idea of seeing a leashed and broken Elaida paraded out in the future. I agree with Galina's fate - the characters don't need to see everything.

[Gertrude]

How isn't it a good thing? It's POV writing. That's how it works. It rewards paying attention, just like any good book. (Including ASOIAF)

On the surface, you can assume some people are just really mad at Elaida or the like, but on a more careful read you realise there are far more layers to what's going on then are first evident.

Can I amend this? It would be a good thing if it wasn't so annoying to read about and difficult to follow all the named characters (not just the Sisters, but everywhere). Maybe if I had read it all at once it would be less of a burden, but as it is I can't be arsed to remember who likes who and who has a secret unless they have a substantial presence.

Why does the internet intensify emotions? I was just thinking to myself that I don't really feel that strongly about these books, so why am I bothering to argue it? I'm chalking it up as something to pass the time.

[Shryke]

Can I amend this? It would be a good thing if it wasn't so annoying to read about.

Why does the internet intensify emotions? I was just thinking to myself that I don't really feel that strongly about these books, so why am I bothering to argue it? I'm chalking it up as something to pass the time.

I think "annoying to read about" is more of a personal assessment. I don't think the things in WOT that are annoying to read about really have anything to do with the stuff that rewards rereading and paying attention. Elayne taking a bath is not a scene with many layers.

As for the internet intensifying emotions, there is only one answer: http://xkcd.com/386/

[Gertrude]

Well, you are wrong, so my crusade is justified :P

[Liadin]

How isn't it a good thing? It's POV writing. That's how it works. It rewards paying attention, just like any good book. (Including ASOIAF)

On the surface, you can assume some people are just really mad at Elaida or the like, but on a more careful read you realise there are far more layers to what's going on then are first evident.

I didn't think saying this sort of thing is at least part of what makes good writing good would be controversial.

ASOIAF doesn't treat minor characters at all the way WOT does. WOT acts as if it expects you to have index cards, or at the very least consult online character encyclopedias. In ASOIAF, first of all the minor characters are much more distinct and each one has a purpose, but second we're reminded of who people are from time to time. Martin gives his readers credit for having intelligence while at the same time realizing that our lives don't revolve around his books. In WOT we're constantly told what minor characters look like, but the POVs don't think back to prior interactions with the person. (At the same time, how the One Power works and so on is explained anew in every single book.) It would add so much more to the books, especially considering Jordan uses dozens of POVs, for them to sometimes remember past experiences instead of just sniffing and smoothing their skirts.

I suppose it rewards rereading to some extent, but WOT is not a series I would ever want to reread. When Jordan's on top of his game, it's action-oriented (and action is boring once you know what's going to happen) and when he's not, it's focused on dresses and annoying personal tics, and that stuff's excruciating even the first time through. (Obviously, YMMV.)

Meh, I'm kinda agreeing with Gertrude though. We keep having these same arguments, which aren't really that big a deal and always end in a stalemate, and we could probably all be doing something more productive. :dunno:

[Rhom]

Out of curiousity... what was that edit?

I was curious about this as well.

[David Selig]

Elaida was written as being so incompetent that it doesn't even resemble the earlier Elaida who at least seemed competent if misguided. I know, she had some hard set-backs, but really. She became a caricature.

So true. I remember when I started reading KoD and started counting every time Elaida said or did something totally retarded. I gave up after 300 pages or so when I reached the number of 20. It really stretches credibility how her Hall left her in power for so long since she made mistake after mistake and did everything possible to anger pretty much every Ajah and Sitter against her. After all, Siuan was dethroned for far less.

As for the fionwe1987's explanation - I admit I've forgotten some details of the whole declaration of war to Elaida, it's been some time since my last reread and this has always been one of my least favourite parts of the series. Explained this way, it looks somewhat better admittedly, but it still relies on Lelaine and Romanda behaving childishly and not treating the declaration of war seriously enough. This childish rivalry and the ease with which Siuan and leane kept their charade for so long and Egwene and Suian kept outsmarting them, is just hard to believe, given these two are supposed to be hugely experienced in Aes Sedai politics and intrigues. It's also really hard to buy how Siuan was chosen to teach Egwene about protocol and the like and nobody thought that since she is a known master of intrigues who's just been denied the chance to return to power herself by the Sitters, there's a good chance she will start teaching Egwene much more than just protocol. The way Suian and Leane kept up the charade of a feud was also far fetched.

To be fair to Jordan, he tried valiantly with this plotline, but set himself up for a fall the moment he planned for Egwene to became Amyrlin quickly. Given the structure and traditions of the White Tower he himself set up early, there was no way he could achieve it without stretching believability a lot and some really convenient plot devices like that obscure Law of War, unknown to anyone but Siuan and a few others, or Elaida becoming a complete buffoon.

[Shryke]

So true. I remember when I started reading KoD and started counting every time Elaida said or did something totally retarded. I gave up after 300 pages or so when I reached the number of 20. It really stretches credibility how her Hall left her in power for so long since she made mistake after mistake and did everything possible to anger pretty much every Ajah and Sitter against her. After all, Siuan was dethroned for far less.

Yes, but Siuan was dethroned due to the help of the Black Ajah. And the Black Ajah were VERY happy to keep Elaida in power. Alot of her policies that fucked the tower up so bad were their own doing. They also successfully turned the tower against one another to the point where they wouldn't cooperate to take her down. And lastly, considering they just had one bloody violent coup, they were doing their best to avoid another.

[Ahmrogar]

The seeds of Elaida was there, but even being a power hungry megalomaniac from the get-go doesn't excuse the way she goes about it and just snaps. It cheapens Egwene's victory because there is just no pretending that Elaida is a viable alternative. It would have been much more interesting to see the Sisters finally realizing what Elaida really is instead of watching her melt down and self-destruct for all to see.

In relation to Elaida, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought Padan Fain had something to do with that? Like, he can water the negative seeds of people's emotions. I recall he did something to Niall so he wouldn't trust people so readily, he says something like he might trust his own mother, but never al'Thor. I figured he did the same to Elaida.

[David Selig]

Yes, but Siuan was dethroned due to the help of the Black Ajah. And the Black Ajah were VERY happy to keep Elaida in power. Alot of her policies that fucked the tower up so bad were their own doing. They also successfully turned the tower against one another to the point where they wouldn't cooperate to take her down. And lastly, considering they just had one bloody violent coup, they were doing their best to avoid another.

Good point about wanting to avoid another bloody coup and the Black Ajah. I was thinking more along the lines of the Tower Hall blocking her decisions, since she did so much to put all Ajahs except the Red against her and kept treating the Sitters badly, not to mention her constant blunders on external matters. Yet she seems to have no trouble passing her suggestions through the Hall until the very end, which just seems weird to me.

[fionwe1987]

These aren't subtleties. These are clearly spelled out. It's hard to miss them when Egwene's sequence is pretty much a hundred pages or so passage explaining in detail what you just went over.

Bull shit. The fact that the five Sitters from the Tower were working for the actual Ajah Heads wasn't ever spelled out till one of the last chapters in tGS. Till then, all we had was tantalizing hints that they're working together, and had been doing so since the beginning. Same with who was Black Ajah. Delana was revealed early on, and so we focused on her. When Sheriam and Moria are revealed to be BA too, we can see how their actions make sense, and add yet another layer of complexity to all the politicking.

And neither does it account for my objections.

Well, your objections are fairly groundless. I don't pretend to be able to account for them.

I said retch. Delana vomits and other Aes Sedai retch, or look like they're about to. Delana's puking is understandable (to some extent, and being gracious about it). The rest of the Aes Sedai's reactions are not.

A long silence stretched. Every eye seemed to be goggling.

Turning abruptly, Delana vomited onto the carpets behind her bench. Kwamesa and Salita both climbed

down and started toward her, but she waved them off, plucking a scarf from her sleeve to wipe her mouth.

Magla and Saroiya and several others still seated looked as though they might follow her example. No others

who had been chosen in Salidar, though. Romanda appeared ready to bite through a nail.

You do realize that the people looking ready to vomit are, after Delana, the people who stood to loose the most due to Egwene's coup, right? Right there, their gamble to back Romanda and Lelaine, split to Rebel Hall, etc. has completely

backfired. No one raised in Salidar was as shocked, and that is again a clue to the currents beneath the surface. But you're so intent on proving that Jordan writes badly that you obviously ignored it all. I mean seriously... a gag reflex is unrealistic? Tons of authors have their preferred way of showing that characters are freaked out. At least these women didn't pee their skirts!

I get it that the slow crawl of these books irritates you. But lack of pace doesn't mean lack of everything else that makes a story.

While all of these currents are happening under the surface, it was executed poorly. Having it laid out before me I can see your point that there were a lot of moving parts behind the face of it that I didn't remember. I still can't bring myself to care or find it particularly engaging.

That's a matter of personal opinion though. You and HA find it to be a painful read, Shryke and me liked it and appreciated the subtleties. I doubt either of us can convince the other to change their tastes, but it is a fact that Jordan's politics isn't simple. There's a lot going on, and maybe for those whom a lack of pace didn't sound the death knell to enjoying the series, appreciating these subtleties is much easier.

It was somewhat painful to read because all of the actors were made to play dumb at some point and Siuan/Egwene had to have perfect reads on the other Sedai for this to actually work.

No they didn't. They never knew why the Sitters who supported Lelaine and Romanda did so. All they knew is that they did. They didn't know why Sheriam was so in control of the Rebllion before Siuan came, why she was so passionate. They assumed a reasonable explanation, but they were completely wrong. From a global perspective, all the initial plotting of Siuan and Egwene was a failure, since they were playing right into the Black Ajah's hands. They both assumed Elaida was the true bad guy, whereas she was just a dupe too, whose greed for power was exploited by Alviarin and Galina. Its not till Egwene spent some time in the Tower that she got a real perspective on the problem, started working to unite the AS, that they were actually achieving any measure of success.

Siuan and Leanne completely overacted in their little tiff, and the Rebel Sedai were overly oblivious to them. Not one single Aes Sedai, not one single White was able to overlook the surface gloss and begin to wonder? You can't sell me on that. You can blame it on their uncomfortableness with the stilled women, but seriously, they just acted stupidly.

Here's Romanda's first PoV:

Later, it had seemed obvious that Siuan was the true puppeteer, and there had been no way to stop her short of rebelling against a second Amyrlin, which surely would have shattered the rebellion against Elaida.

Nisao says pretty much the same thing. Lelaine probably always had a hint (once it became clear Sheriam wasn't the one behind the whole thing).

What you're not getting is that what Siuan really used was the Aes Sedai's belief that strength in the power really does determine who's controlling whom. They didn't think Siuan had become an idiot. What they thought was that with barely any strength in the Power, there's no way for her to get her way. They are so used to bludgeoning their way through life )and thinking they're being subtle), that it was completely lost on them how easily someone way weaker than them can manipulate them. We the same with Siuan, who had no clue that Danelle was playing her with the whole library repair thing.

Siuan even comments on it:

Siuan covered a smile. It was amazing how much you could accomplish when people dismissed you. How many women had she dismissed because they lacked visible power? How often had she been manipulated much as she now manipulated Lelaine?

And isn't this the same thing we see with nobles in aSoIaF as well. They just can't believe that anyone who lacks visible power can manipulate them, and people like Littlefinger, Aurane Waters, etc. run circles around these people and they aren't even aware.

I think Jordan makes a good point that there are levels to manipulations and plots. Sure, within the confines of the Hall of the Tower, among their peers who all wield visible power, Lelaine and Romanda are experienced manipulators. They know the rules of the Hall, and within those rules, they can do pretty well to gain influence and hold it. But outside of it, they are less proficient, because it isn't easy to realize that while you may be among the 23 most powerful women in the world, there were a ton of underlings whose actions constantly influenced with you being none the wiser. I reminds me of the movie Gosford Park. People really do find it easy to ignore the fact that those under them have the same kind of brains, the same motivations and the same cunning as they do. It doesn't really go with thinking that you're one of the most important people in the world.

The manoeuvrings in the Little Tower bored me to tears.I also want to add my support to Wolverine's comment. Elaida was written as being so incompetent that it doesn't even resemble the earlier Elaida who at least seemed competent if misguided. I know, she had some hard set-backs, but really. She became a caricature.

Elaida seemed far more believable to me than Cersei, whose descent was even more quick, and even more startling. Elaida was always unstable and a bit thick. She succeed because they thought a thick skulled Red who refuses the believe the Black Ajah exists is better as the leader of the AS than a woman who clearly has knowledge of the Dragon Reborn, and has kept it secret from them.

[fionwe1987]

Yet she seems to have no trouble passing her suggestions through the Hall until the very end, which just seems weird to me.

Ummm... what suggestions? She had to force them to do what she said by using punishments. That's why no one wanted to go rescue her.

[Gertrude]

That's a matter of personal opinion though. You and HA find it to be a painful read, Shryke and me liked it and appreciated the subtleties. I doubt either of us can convince the other to change their tastes, but it is a fact that Jordan's politics isn't simple. There's a lot going on, and maybe for those whom a lack of pace didn't sound the death knell to enjoying the series, appreciating these subtleties is much easier.

I will agree with you on this. There was a lot of subtle politicking going on, so I apologize for mischaracterizing it as 'simple politics'. The rest is up to personal preference. I didn't find it satisfying. Aes Sedai discounting lesser powers (i.e. Siuan) is still stupid and barely plausible - yes, yes, I know, this is on purpose. Aes Sedai are insular and prideful and think they know best. For me, it falls along the lines of 'all Ebou Dari like to fight' shallowness. It steroetypes all Aes Sedai as set in their ways when, in reality, they should have fallen all along the spectrum of 'other people can be useful' to 'everyone else is a dumbass' with them trending as a whole to the 'dumbass' side.

Cersei's fall was abrupt and a bit jarring as well - I don't think it was his finest bit of characterization. However, I tend to cut him some slack because the rest of his work is obviously above par. With Jordan, I don't cut him as much slack because - to me, and I understand that others will disagree - Jordan is just average and his flaws are more prolific and obvious. The bloat in the later books emphasizes this.

I enjoy Jordan, but I do so because I lower my expectations a bit. Even then there are places where he falls below that standard and I have to remind myself that there are also things like Dumai's Wells and the test at Rhiudean to balance them out.

[fionwe1987]

I will agree with you on this. There was a lot of subtle politicking going on, so I apologize for mischaracterizing it as 'simple politics'. The rest is up to personal preference. I didn't find it satisfying. Aes Sedai discounting lesser powers (i.e. Siuan) is still stupid and barely plausible - yes, yes, I know, this is on purpose. Aes Sedai are insular and prideful and think they know best. For me, it falls along the lines of 'all Ebou Dari like to fight' shallowness. It steroetypes all Aes Sedai as set in their ways when, in reality, they should have fallen all along the spectrum of 'other people can be useful' to 'everyone else is a dumbass' with them trending as a whole to the 'dumbass' side.

*Scratches head*... but they do span a spectrum. Sure, there are more at the end where everyone below you is a useless appendage, but women like Cadsuane, Moiraine, a ton of Cadsuane's followers... they don't think that way at all.

And "all Ebou Dari" like to fight is a stereotype, like all English are bad cooks/the French are rude, that has been disproved several times in the series. Its the way stereotypes work, though. Like all the Quartheen cry, etc. Foreigners always tend to try and lump people of a country together. I really don't get why Jordan is blamed for showing it as it is.

Cersei's fall was abrupt and a bit jarring as well - I don't think it was his finest bit of characterization. However, I tend to cut him some slack because the rest of his work is obviously above par. With Jordan, I don't cut him as much slack because - to me, and I understand that others will disagree - Jordan is just average and his flaws are more prolific and obvious. The bloat in the later books emphasizes this.

Again... isn't that personal opinion? There are people who in fact don't get bothered as much with the slow pace of the latter books because they feel he's above par in other areas, making him immensely readable. YMMV and all that, but shouldn't a discussion of Jordan's strengths as a writer at least attempt to be somewhat objective? I personally dislike his writing so I think its better someone else is writing his work is hardly convincing (I know this wasn't your view of things, though).

I enjoy Jordan, but I do so because I lower my expectations a bit. Even then there are places where he falls below that standard and I have to remind myself that there are also things like Dumai's Wells and the test at Rhiudean to balance them out.

That's cool. For myself, things like Dumai's Wells are less interesting than other aspects of Jordan's work.

[Liadin]

Again... isn't that personal opinion? There are people who in fact don't get bothered as much with the slow pace of the latter books because they feel he's above par in other areas, making him immensely readable. YMMV and all that, but shouldn't a discussion of Jordan's strengths as a writer at least attempt to be somewhat objective? I personally dislike his writing so I think its better someone else is writing his work is hardly convincing (I know this wasn't your view of things, though).

How is someone meant to be objective about this? Should we resort to professional reviewers and fling links back and forth? I've never seen a site not dedicated to Jordan where the majority of posters are complimentary, so I'm not sure what makes you think that viewing him "objectively" would put him in a better light. You're jumping on Gertrude's admitting that her opinion is just an opinion, but so is everyone else's, your own included.