Towers of Midnight

[fionwe1987]

About the Aes Sedai:

I have a really strong feeling if most of the characters had been Aes Sedai, their failings would have received a far less negative reaction. For example, their obsession with themselves, their arrogance, their general lack of care for common people... all these are qualities that nobles from almost any other series display, and yet, since most of those series don't really make it a point to present these social constructs from an external perspective, these qualities get pushed under the radar. But Jordan had multiple outside perspectives on the Aes Sedai, and I think that contributes a lot to the negative opinion of them. I also think this was very much intended. Which is why their reform into an actual asset for the good guys is such a big deal. Would we care at all if it just about Egwene gaining to Amyrlin from Elaida? I think that whole struggle is more interesting because of how flawed the organization is.

[fionwe1987]

How is someone meant to be objective about this? Should we resort to professional reviewers and fling links back and forth? I've never seen a site not dedicated to Jordan where the majority of posters are complimentary, so I'm not sure what makes you think that viewing him "objectively" would put him in a better light. You're jumping on Gertrude's admitting that her opinion is just an opinion, but so is everyone else's, your own included.

Did I say it would make him look complimentary? I mean, seriosuly, what the hell is your problem? I'm saying that certain things are facts, no matter whether you like him or not. I like his works, but I'm not saying his latter books don't have issues, especially with the pacing. That the pacing doesn't bother me doesn't alter this fact one whit. And that's exactly what I'm asking from others discussing his works, and barring your knee-jerk reaction that all but says I have some agenda to show Jordan in a good light, that's what I'm getting from Gertrude.

We get it, you can't stand seeing him praised in any way. You don't have to spoil perfectly civil discussions for it.

[Liadin]

Did I say it would make him look complimentary? I mean, seriosuly, what the hell is your problem? I'm saying that certain things are facts, no matter whether you like him or not. I like his works, but I'm not saying his latter books don't have issues, especially with the pacing. That the pacing doesn't bother me doesn't alter this fact one whit. And that's exactly what I'm asking from others discussing his works, and barring your knee-jerk reaction that all but says I have some agenda to show Jordan in a good light, that's what I'm getting from Gertrude.

We get it, you can't stand seeing him praised in any way. You don't have to spoil perfectly civil discussions for it.

Whoa now, cool down. I'm sorry if you read that post as being unpleasant, but it wasn't so intended. And please don't try to characterize me as unreasonable on the issue when your own opinions are just as inflexible.

At any rate, sure, you can make statements about the books that are uncontestable facts, like "there are a lot of characters." But virtually everything is an opinion of some sort; just how slow you see the pacing depends on what sort of pacing you're used to (some people think ASOIAF is slow-paced; I think the opposite), and while I think it's an uncontestable fact that there's a ton of spanking in the books, I seem to recall that you've disagreed with this in the past. And if these basic factual issues are open to debate, then I don't know how you expect to get people to treat more subjective questions, like the relative complexity of the politics or characterization, as "fact."

[Cantabile]

Let's settle this spanking debate once and for all.

Crown of Swords - Anyway, Aunt Rana convinced me to say I had just overheard them talking, and Aunt Miren promised to spank me for spreading tales

A Crown of Swords - Another of the girls spanked his bottom for pinching hers

Winter's Heart - “The gai’shain will be quiet,” Rolan grunted, spanking her hard.

Winter's Heart - Vaguely she seemed to recall welcoming those spanks, but that was impossible

Winter's Heart - They wish to fast and meditate on civility. See that they do. And if they offer one uncivil word, spank them both.

The Great Hunt - “Lord Agelmar. Lord Kajin. He should know this much of our ways by now, but he is too big to spank, so I will let Egwene deal with him.

The Path of Daggers - "A pity if I had to spank you for something one of them did."

The Path of Daggers - She was not going to slap him, and he was too big for her to spank

A Crown of swords - “Do I?” She eyed him from head to toe, and made it seem no very great distance. “Well, it seems I shall soon see whether or not you need spanking.

Lord of Chaos - They always did get a little carried away when they argued, and Zarine’s too big now for Deira to put an end to it by spanking her.

The Fires of Heaven -“You are children, and lucky if we decide not to spank you. Now hold your peace until you are called on to speak.”

A Crown of Swords - “Most boys learn not to stick their fingers into the pretty fire the first time they are burned, Tomas. Others need to be spanked, to learn. Better a tender bottom than a seared hand.”

And my personal favorite:

A Crown of Swords - “Boy,” Cadsuane said dryly, “I’ve already seen more of your hairless bottomcheeks than I wish to, but if you want to flaunt them in front of all six of us, perhaps someone will enjoy the show. If you fall on your face, though, I may just spank you before I put you back to bed.”

:spank: :spank: :spank:

[Lightning Lord]

Nice to see the old guard in here, re-hashing the same argument. Word of advice to, well, everyone: Don't bother arguing with some people about this series. It's pointless. You'd make more of an impact and have more fun smacking your forehead into a brick wall. Really, when the other side is insisting on its opinion-as-fact, it's time to just walk away.

ETA: I advise the "Ignore" function. Works wonders on enjoying this thread.

Who's read the prologue? I can't get it here and want to know what happened. I read the first chapter, it seemed a bit short, but good. The prologue though, has something about Perrin and something about Galad?

[fionwe1987]

Whoa now, cool down. I'm sorry if you read that post as being unpleasant, but it wasn't so intended. And please don't try to characterize me as unreasonable on the issue when your own opinions are just as inflexible.

I don't doubt I'm as inflexible as you... but the reasonable part is the question. I frankly see nothing I wrote that required you to respond the way you did. I have never said or implied that my opinion of the series is more objective than that of others.

At any rate, sure, you can make statements about the books that are uncontestable facts, like "there are a lot of characters." But virtually everything is an opinion of some sort; just how slow you see the pacing depends on what sort of pacing you're used to (some people think ASOIAF is slow-paced; I think the opposite), and while I think it's an uncontestable fact that there's a ton of spanking in the books, I seem to recall that you've disagreed with this in the past. And if these basic factual issues are open to debate, then I don't know how you expect to get people to treat more subjective questions, like the relative complexity of the politics or characterization, as "fact."

I didn't say there wasn't any spanking, or even a lot of spanking. I disagreed that this means that RJ was some kind of dirty old pervert getting his jollies out of writing about spanking. The utter absurdity of that is self-evident, I think, and I hope no one was trying to say that was a fact.

[Liadin]

I don't doubt I'm as inflexible as you... but the reasonable part is the question. I frankly see nothing I wrote that required you to respond the way you did. I have never said or implied that my opinion of the series is more objective than that of others.

I'm honestly not sure why that post bothered you so much, but let's bury the hatchet and move on, shall we? Lightning Lord's advice is well-taken but there's something weird about reading threads where you don't see all the posts.

The prologue though, has something about Perrin and something about Galad?

Glad that guy's showing up again. I'd have liked to see more of his storyline.

[kadvael]

Who's read the prologue? I can't get it here and want to know what happened. I read the first chapter, it seemed a bit short, but good. The prologue though, has something about Perrin and something about Galad?

One of my friends downloaded the audio version and I listened to it :pirate: . In the prologue there are known characters: Lan, Perrin, Galad, Fain, there is a new one in Kandor and also

a very interesting forsaken POV

.

[Lightning Lord]

I'm honestly not sure why that post bothered you so much, but let's bury the hatchet and move on, shall we? Lightning Lord's advice is well-taken but there's something weird about reading threads where you don't see all the posts.

It is a little weird at first, but you get used to it. Less aggravating. For all parties, I'd imagine. Discussing the story can be great fun, but I grew tired of being told I was wrong every time I put up my thoughts about something.

Back to prologue:

Anyone know how to get it if you're not in Americaland?

[Shryke]

Let's settle this spanking debate once and for all.

And my personal favorite:

:spank: :spank: :spank:

So you located the word spank 13 times in a like 3 million word series.

[kadvael]

Back to prologue:

Anyone know how to get it if you're not in Americaland?

Maybe hotfile, search distinctions and prologue :pirate:

[fionwe1987]

So you located the word spank 13 times in a like 3 million word series.

Don't bother Shryke. Or very soon you'll be told you're a fanboy. :rolleyes:

[Old Nan]

Ideal Seek gives

spank 11+3+5+1

swat (on the bottom) 2

paddle (his bottom) 4+5

thwack across the backside 2

And let's say perhaps half of the 72+154+5 instances of various forms of "beating" refer to spankings, too.

And then there's the 61+31 of "switch" , eg "and a switch of Air caught the novice across the bottom hard enough to make her squeal and jump"

Many instances of "strap"...

Dozens of "birchings", which are sorta ambiguous...

I don't see how it can be denied that Jordan has a fondness for :spank:.

Who's read the prologue? I can't get it here and want to know what happened. I read the first chapter, it seemed a bit short, but good. The prologue though, has something about Perrin and something about Galad?

Plot summary:

*Lan picks up his first supporter in Saldaea.

*Perrin has a bizarre dream where he's trying to forge things and Hopper tells him how pathetic he is. There's laughter just before he wakes up.

*Graendal entertains Aran'gar and Delana when Ramshalan shows up. She has them Compel him while she uses a True Power weave to spy on Rand. Upon realizing he's about to nuke her, she binds them in Air to be killed and dives through a gateway to safety.

*Galad is betrayed to Asunawa and surrenders himself to be tortured on the condition that his men are not penalized.

*Padan Fain/Mordeth takes a walk through the Blight, killing everything in his path. He now has the power to zombify and directly command Trollocs, though not Myrddraal.

*A Blightborder tower in Kandor goes about its business. The communication mirrors on their neighbor towers go dark. The commander orders messengers inland and prepares defenses just before a massive army comes boiling out of the Blight.

[Lightning Lord]

Plot summary:

*Lan picks up his first supporter in Saldaea.

*Perrin has a bizarre dream where he's trying to forge things and Hopper tells him how pathetic he is. There's laughter just before he wakes up.

*Graendal entertains Aran'gar and Delana when Ramshalan shows up. She has them Compel him while she uses a True Power weave to spy on Rand. Upon realizing he's about to nuke her, she binds them in Air to be killed and dives through a gateway to safety.

*Galad is betrayed to Asunawa and surrenders himself to be tortured on the condition that his men are not penalized.

*Padan Fain/Mordeth takes a walk through the Blight, killing everything in his path. He now has the power to zombify and directly command Trollocs, though not Myrddraal.

*A Blightborder tower in Kandor goes about its business. The communication mirrors on their neighbor towers go dark. The commander orders messengers inland and prepares defenses just before a massive army comes boiling out of the Blight.

Cheers.

I'm insanely happy that at least one of the Forsaken died with Rand's nuclear balefire. A little piqued that, as happens so damn often in this series, one of the "dead" Forsaken is revealed to have narrowly escaped in some ridiculous fashion. Maybe a little more than piqued.

[AverageGuy]

So you located the word spank 13 times in a like 3 million word series.

To be fair, if you just do a word search for "spank," you will be missing out on the "warming Y's bottom" or other euphemisms. As well as certain times people have "met toh" or "had appointments in Sheriam's study."

But I do think someone had a good point about it being what you're used to. If I expand beyond spanking to any sort of minor corporal punishment, I can think of maybe five, and the only books I can think of are autobiographical and/or include boy's schools. Roald Dahl got his hands caned, IIRC, and Tom Brown I think went through something at Rugby. Though, the authors tended to only write about a single instance, but on the other hand there tended to be less total pages. However, it wasn't for people who would be considered adults in the outside world, either... Eh, even thirteen spanking references is thirteen times what I've gotten from the books where there has been spanking, so comparatively it'll seem like a lot to me and people with similar reading histories. If you've read a lot of books where spanking is prevalent, read books about medieval monasteries or something, you probably coast right by RJ's references without even noticing them.

[Old Nan]

I thought it was handled pretty well. While

the fact that Graendal now has limited access to the True Power and was able to deduce Rand's purpose, not to mention that Aran'gar was there at all, could be construed as rather providential, that she has an alliance with him has been set up for a few books now, and the only thing better than actually seeing a Forsaken die for good is seeing a Forsaken who actually lives up to her diabolical reputation. Moridin's been getting a little lonely as the only competent one of the bunch.

One can only hope that Demandred's big reveal will be equally affirmative, and that he's not just leading a middling-sized army of Murandian horsethieves, hookers, and lazy streetsweeps.

I'm quite hopeful about the higher caliber of writing in this book compared to TGS, too.

[Lightning Lord]

I think what irked me the most was

The seeing-through-bird thing. I don't remember it ever being mentioned before, in a 13 books series. So perfect that this ability is revealed just in time to help another Forsaken pretend to die. It's crap like this that made me actually need the sentence "Yes, Sammael is dead" line from RJ, rather than believe what I thought I'd read.

Bah. I'm nitpicking. I just want to whine :). I liked it overall and am pretty enthused for the rest of the book to be released.

[Sword of the Morning]

I think it's interesting seeing this old argument brought up again about Robert Jordan's writing except with a better defender than me.

I think for instance that fionwe1987 is a pretty remarkable authority on Wheel of Time. And he just happens to be the most visible poster in the forums. Others of course are not as public but may know the series better. Rumors are that Bob Kluttz of Encyclopaedia WoT has a near photographic memory of the series. Supposedly he is never wrong on any question or fact citing the books. Terez on Theoryland is a similar authority and delves DEEP into the theories and analysis of the books. Jason of Dragonmount has probably read this series 30 or 40 times over the years.

My point is that the Wheel of Time has many faults, many more evident as the series progressed, but it is a very deep and complicated work that rewards re-reads and people who put in the time to get as much out of it as they can.

Now . . . to be fair, if Jordan's style is not your cup of tea and you inherently dislike his writing, there may be little INCENTIVE for you to do this. The mannerisms and quirks may irritate you so much that you are quite incapable of rereading Crossroads of Twilight the 9 or 12 times necessary to extract that last layer of subtlety or plotting that people like Fionwe1987 or Jason or myself may appreciate. That's fine, that's a personal decision.

BUT it is unfair and certainly smacks of arrogance to suggest that just because YOU are unwilling to delve in the depths and the complexities of the story that said complexities and depth DOES NOT EXIST.

I am reminded of a math test I took in high school when my answer to a problem was simply: Cannot be solved. To which my teacher wrote the following addendum: " . . . by you."

There are facts and there are opinions. Sometimes, facts need to be SUPPORTED by reasoned and logical arguments. Any asshat can write that character A is stupid or plot arc B is too simplistic or character C is a genius. But it takes time, commitment, energy, knowledge to actually make a point:

The politics of the Wheel of Time as written by Robert Jordan is NOT simple but in fact quite beautifully layered and complex should you wish to examine it in detail

. . . and then BACKS THAT UP with a discussion that is as well-reasoned, well-quoted, and well supported as any college English paper you're likely to read.

Simply then dismissing all that work as "X just being a fanboy" doesn't impress me personally.

Politics in the Wheel of Time is not stupid, juvenile, or ridiculously simple. Fionwe1987 has quite methodically and eloquently proven that to me. What then is the counter-argument to his work? I see none that is well-reasoned, intelligent, or cogent to the point. The CLOSEST thing I've read is that ". . . well ok, maybe it ISN'T simple . . . but it is so boring and confusing, I didn't enjoy reading about it and Jordan didn't do a good enough job writing it to make me care enough to WANT to understand all that confusing shit."

Oh . . . ok. Well, seems to me you changed the argument there, son. None of us can really help it if you can't be BOTHERED to study this or you think Jordan is not a good enough writer to inspire you to do that. Obviously Fionwe1987 and Shryke and Terez and myself had no such problems with that. The fact that Jordan didn't float your boat enough to match our energy and passion is now a matter of YOUR PERSONAL OPINION and does not change the FACT that his plotting and politics have a layer of complexity that is all too easily dismissed by people who THINK they are bad-ass and understand Wheel of Time but in fact do not at all.

You know . . . kinda like reading about what 5th graders think about nuclear physics or someone who doesn't speak English critique Citizen Kane.

People who dislike Jordan basically just lump all the Jordan supporters as "fan-boys" blinded by some type of man-lust for the author and/or series but I think that does show disrespect to people like Fionwe1987 who happen to be very articulate and focused about why they like certain aspects of the series and can show why.

I got some heat for calling out Pat's review of The Gathering Storm by using the same argument. It remains absolutely impossible for me to believe that he is in any way, shape, or form a real fan of the work with any true understanding of the work. Maybe on a superficial reading for plot level like maybe my wife or my mom maybe, I can see that. But for anyone to think that Tam and Rand's meeting was underwhelming or boring just blew my mind. It made me realize I could no longer take anything he said about Jordan or Wheel of Time seriously in the future. The fact that he said this about Rand almost killing his own father:

"There is one incredibly important scene in which Rand is reunited with someone he hasn't seen in a long time. But that scene turns out to be a monumental failure to launch, with absolutely no emotional impact."

Is there anyone who cares even remotely about these books ready to agree with this assessment? Come on . . . Wert, why don't you chime in on what you think about that scene?

As for gauging the reaction of the fans by the number of reviews? Okay, let's do some math. So Amazon.com gets a few hundred reviews. The posters on this forum, quite a few of whom I consider to be rather smug, self-satisfied smartasses who think they are much more clever than they really are and rejoice in tearing any author not named GRRM apart, number what? A dozen or so who regularly contribute? Fantasy bloggers on the Internet number how many? Can you count them on one hand or two?

And Jordan should have taken them seriously over whom? His award-winning editor wife who edited Ender's Game and is known in the publishing industry as one of the best editors in the business? How about the hundreds of thousands of readers who don't post on this forum and don't post reviews on Amazon.com who make Path of Daggers, Winter's Heart, Crossroads of Twilight, Knife of Dreams, and The Gathering Storm #1 debut New York Times Bestsellers? Ummmm, apart from Jordan who did it 5 times and Martin who did once with the weakest book in his series, do you know who else has debuted at #1 on the New York Times as a fantasy sci-fi author?

Maybe that's what he meant about consulting a surgeon vs a guy on the street about your heart. Maybe after you've published your FIRST book, you can tell him what he needs to do to write better so more people will buy his books. Sure you don't have to be a bestselling author to have an opinion about his work, but you SHOULD be humble enough to understand how important it is in the overall scheme of things when he is weighing who to listen to or not. Hell, if he listened to half the bullshit spouted on this forum, man would be starving to death in a ditch with rags on his back . . .

Here is a real life analogy I hope can convey my meaning. I am a big Song of Ice and Fire fan. Even though, I am now convinced it will never have an ending, I still consider it one of the great works of epic fantasy written in our time. I brow-beat my wife into trying it out.

After skimming through A Game of Thrones, she promptly stopped. She hated it for the following reasons:

1. It was gratuitously rude, obscene, vulgar. Displayed incest and violence both physical, emotional, and sexual toward minors.

2. She disliked Martin's characterization of women.

3. Hated all the characters in the book.

4. Disliked how Eddard has his head chopped off at the end.

5. Boring (??!!?)

6. Felt the story was unremittingly dark and sucked the joy out of her and left both characters and reader in abject state of utter despair with no hope of redemption or improvement.

By the way, #6 was a complaint at the END of Game of Thrones and before the Red Wedding and Joffrey's torment of Sansa!

Okaaaaay. So she dismissed the entire series after skimming through book one. She couldn't stand Martin's style basically and his realistic depiction of Middle Ages feudal life. That's fine. She's entitled to her opinion. Anyone here going to argue though that Ran and Werthead may have gotten JUST A TEENSY BIT MORE out of A Game of Thrones on their 8th reread than her?

Everyone's entitled to their opinion. Just don't expect me and other Wheel of Time fans to respect yours or think you're clever if you proudly state that "Crossroads of Twilight sucks . . . I skipped a few hundred pages and skimmed the rest and oh the politics are so stupid and Egwene is SOOOOOO obvious."

Is that so hard to understand?

Now if you wrote a response that's even half as well-constructed as Fionwe1987's posts, then I'd be willing to take you seriously.

Jordan's masterwork is certainly not perfect and there are flaws that frustrate all of us . . . especially those of us who have invested 20 plus years in following the story. I like to read well-thought critiques of his deficiencies but I hate reading comments by people who want to see how clever they can be in insulting him with no basis in facts or who make sweeping generalizations (like how his politics are simple or he has a fetish for spanking) with paper-thin arguments that are then unceremoniously destroyed by someone like Fionwe1987 when he even bothers to waste his time responding. That just sucks . . .

It's also just silly:

A: Jordan's politics are SOOOOOO simple.

B: 2000 word detailed response with quotations from the books essentially completely disproving A's statement.

A: Umm, ok, I was wrong. I just didn't read or think enough about that. But why would I? It's SOOOO badly written, I'm SOOOO bored. It's just not accessible. I'm going to read Gene Wolfe's Book of the New Sun for the 189th time . . . backward . . . That book really makes you WORK for it, it's SOOOOOO deep. Really rewards studying it.

?????

Dennis

[Gertrude]

*Scratches head*... but they do span a spectrum. Sure, there are more at the end where everyone below you is a useless appendage, but women like Cadsuane, Moiraine, a ton of Cadsuane's followers... they don't think that way at all.

Moiraine is an exceptional character and I agree she's the best of the lot. Even she doesn't like the fact that Rand has his own ideas on how to proceed, however. She may have had some reason in the beginning, but she couldn't really accept that he might have had some insight into this gig. I mean, it wasn't like he was born for this exact reason and the Pattern has no way of aiding him, right? As for Cads, you're gonna have to give me an example because all I see of her is her bullying people around her because she knows what needs to be done. Instead of trying to intimidate Tam when he comes to her with some very valid concerns about his son, does she ever think that hey, perhaps he has some insights on how to reach Rand? Nope - he's just an obstacle and she intimidates him (or tries to - go Tam!) so he will stop bothering her. Shows how much she thinks of other people, doesn't it?

And "all Ebou Dari" like to fight is a stereotype, like all English are bad cooks/the French are rude, that has been disproved several times in the series. Its the way stereotypes work, though. Like all the Quartheen cry, etc. Foreigners always tend to try and lump people of a country together. I really don't get why Jordan is blamed for showing it as it is.

I'm not basing my opinion on how others percieve Ebou Dar, I'm getting it from the Ebou Dari themselves. They have ritualized the glory of the knife fight. A woman wears a marriage knife that shows how many of her kids have died in fights and which ones were too cowardly to claim. Tylin isn't upset that her son killed a man in a duel, but that his widow was going to be a bother. It's a short hand way to show how this culture is distinct and I think it's random and lazy.

Again... isn't that personal opinion? <snip> YMMV and all that, but shouldn't a discussion of Jordan's strengths as a writer at least attempt to be somewhat objective?

Of course this is my opinion and it's just as valid as yours. I think I have been pointing out areas where I think he has strengths and explaining what I think are his weaknesses.

I have a really strong feeling if most of the characters had been Aes Sedai, their failings would have received a far less negative reaction. For example, their obsession with themselves, their arrogance, their general lack of care for common people... all these are qualities that nobles from almost any other series display, and yet, since most of those series don't really make it a point to present these social constructs from an external perspective, these qualities get pushed under the radar.

An all Aes Sedai cast - I shudder at the thought. Jordan does show many of the nobles through the eyes of an outsider (our heroes) - the Tairen lords playing cards with Mat, the Cairhienen lords' shock at Rand's laws giving commoners rights against them, we see it in Elayne at times. I'm not meant to like them, but I don't have the same level of distaste for them as I do the Aes Sedai. Jordan specifically made them mysterious, powerful and a little dangerous, then he dismantled them before our eyes and showed they weren't truly worthy of being put on that pedestal. I'm pretty sure we weren't meant to like them as a whole.

On spanking: while the numerous mentions of spanking, switching, paddling, etc may not be proof that Jordan is a perv, it is odd and I see it as an example of his self-indulgence. If one spanking is good, then more is better! I described Nyneave's dress, so now I shall describe all their dresses - it'll be great. This is where an editor should have said, perhaps you could tone that down, huh?

Discussing the story can be great fun, but I grew tired of being told I was wrong every time I put up my thoughts about something.

Thanks for the concern, but when it ceases to be fun, I will stop. :)

I think what irked me the most was

The seeing-through-bird thing. I don't remember it ever being mentioned before, in a 13 books series. So perfect that this ability is revealed just in time to help another Forsaken pretend to die.

People, especially borderlanders, have been shooting ravens down for ages because they could be spies. This was introduced in book 1. I haven't actually read the prologue, but have read discussions and summaries, but I imagined it was the same or similar weave)

[Lightning Lord]

People, especially borderlanders, have been shooting ravens down for ages because they could be spies. This was introduced in book 1. I haven't actually read the prologue, but have read discussions and summaries, but I imagined it was the same or similar weave)

I know the raven bit. This isn't the same thing at all. The Forsaken even mentions how it's not the same thing. It's a convenient weave for the moment, not the aforementioned Evil Eyes (ravens, rats, etc)