Towers of Midnight

[alguien]

I always noticed it. Whatever. Its a medieval type world. With corporal punishment. Written for fantasy geeks.

Also, I think the fact that its the go-to punishment for Egwene several times in fairly important character development moments, Perrin and Faile, its Cadsuane's go-to threat, and also its the thing that:

BREAKS Semirhage the absolute mistress of torture and pain

makes it stand out a bit more.

I really can't think of any other fantasy series that has it, tbh.

I mean shit, nearly every single one of the principal characters has spanked, been spanked or threatened with it in the books.

[Poobah]

BREAKS Semirhage the absolute mistress of torture and pain

Wining the award for most what the fuck this doesn't make any fucking sense ever award, awarded here and now in this awarding award ceremony.

[David Selig]

I blame Egwene (as usual). She made a career out of enduring spankings, that's how she reached her current high position in the WoT world. ;)

[Shryke]

Wining the award for most what the fuck this doesn't make any fucking sense ever award, awarded here and now in this awarding award ceremony.

I thought it was a great overall idea, but the execution (especially the speed of it) was just complete "WTF?!?!".

[Gertrude]

Wining the award for most what the fuck this doesn't make any fucking sense ever award, awarded here and now in this awarding award ceremony.

Again, the idea wasn't bad - I can see that as being part of the thing that broke her. Not the spanking itself, just the attitude displayed to do so. The execution was horrible, making it a WTF moment.

[Gertrude]

hehe - right on Shryke.

[Shryke]

This was an excellent idea in principle, and it was done very well with Moiraine, but for my money Jordan went way overboard with it after that. He didn't just reduce the Aes Sedai to normal people, he reduced most of them to caricatures and/or arrogant bullies with the brain capacity of a 10 year old.

Though I still insist the stupidity of Egwene's opponents spoils the overall effect. It's not the fact that Romanda and lelaine have a childish rivalry that bothers me - it's that it pretty much defines them as characters and makes them incapable of seeing anything past it.

That's my point though, people act like this. All the time in politics. Petty bickering is practically the status quo for most politics and it only gets worse when you concentrate the power in fewer hands with less oversight and scrutiny.

The fact that nobody before in all those years of history has ever thought to use the Oath Rod to expose the Black Ajah memory is also hard to swallow. It's such an obvious plan.

Couple of things here:

1) no one knew the Oath Rod could remove Oaths as I remember

2) no Aes Sedai would stand for what Egwene did with reswearing oaths and such in peace time. It's the equivalent of interrogating every person in an entire country, one at a time, to find out who the terrorists and criminals are. People don't take that kind of shit, and certainly not a group as in love with their own independance as the Aes Sedai. (Remember, the biggest and first rule for Aes Sedai is that each sister's business is private) The whole "End of the World" thing is the only reason she pulls it off. People are almost always willing to be more forgiving of authoritarianism in a crisis.

Another thing about the Aes Sedai's role in the series that bugs me is how they were set up to be the only significant organisation of channellers in Randland and thus the main power in the land. But suddenly there is the Kin, the Windfinders, the Wise Ones, the damane, all of which not only have the numbers, but also the power and in some areas the knowledge to rival the White Tower. then there's the Asha'man, who somehow in a year or so became a stronger fighting force than the Aes Sedai and about equal in numbers. All of this made me hard to care about the Aes Sedai's division plotline, since it turned out the White Tower is much more insignificant in the grand scheme of things than it was set up to be.

How are they insignificant? All those groups you are talking about (minus the Kin) are from the periphery of the main continent. They are all part of the societies that are not part of the continent. The Aes Sedai, by virtue of their area of power, are far more powerful. Politically anyway. The White Tower is one of the most powerful political forces in the world. The division of the Tower is in no way insignificant.

The rest of the issues are simply more demonstrations of Aes Sedai arrogance. Which, again, kinda the point.

[Shryke]

RJ frequently describes the politics in WoT as horribly complex. He one-ups himself often in trying to describe just how complex the machinations are. First, we get the Cairhienen, who are the masters of the Great Game. They plot and scheme as easily as breathe. The Tairens try to be as good, but cannot manage, but still have all sorts of things going on. We also get told that Aes Sedai were the creators of Daes Dae'mar, that their manipulations make the Cairhienen nobles look like children (despite being told that Cairhien was the best at it). We then get informed that the Forsaken are the truly elite players of the Game, that Aes Sedai wish they could hatch nefarious plans half so well as these agents of evil.

Need to superlatize everyone's abilities aside, the author is the one telling us that it's hugely complex. The audience didn't have to bring that assumption to the discussion, it's force-fed to us as fact.

The Cairhienen do scheme and plot a lot. But again, you seem to have strange expectations of what alot of scheming and plotting looks like.

Plus, you are told all this, not by the author, but by the characters. And the characters have been shown, time and time again, to have over-inflated expectations of things. The power of myth and all that.

[Guy Kilmore]

Nevermind.

[Shryke]

I thought Ebou Dar was part of the continent.

First:

(minus the Kin)

Second:

The Kin have essentially no political power whatsoever and the Aes Sedai are well aware of them. What the Aes Sedai aren't aware of is just how bloody many of them there are.

The Kin have no political power at all, there's just alot of them.

[Guy Kilmore]

First:

Second:

The Kin have essentially no political power whatsoever and the Aes Sedai are well aware of them. What the Aes Sedai aren't aware of is just how bloody many of them there are.

The Kin have no political power at all, there's just alot of them.

Sorry, I re-read your post and caught that part. Then the internet puked on me and I couldn't retract it in time. (I was honestly not being arguementative, it has been a while since I read the books and that bit would have been news to me.)

[Shryke]

You know, being on a role here, I thought I'd throw out some other things I was thinking about with WOT and with respect to Aes Sedai independance:

One thing that really struck me when rereading New Spring was that the Aes Sedai are a really WEIRD organization. Just by their very nature.

They are, literally, a random collection of women all shoved together and separated from the rest of the world. They have essentially nothing in common (beyond, obviously, the power). No real common goals, no common origins, etc, etc.

Ask yourself, what does an Aes Sedai DO? After they've been trained, what do they do with their time? I mean, you've just been raised to the shawl and now you've got a whole wide world ahead of you, mystical powers at your commands and really, no direction. No over-arching purpose you don't set for yourself.

I think this is where the whole "Leave another Aes Sedai's business alone" thing comes from and alot of where alot of the infighting comes from. They are just a bunch of people following whatever fancy strikes them at the time, all shoved together into one building and forced to live with each other for hundreds of years.

It's why I think the White Tower as an idea is so powerful to them. It's the only thing that actually unites them all. And it's the only thing they can come back to as they outlive everything else in their lives.

Sorry, I re-read your post and caught that part. Then the internet puked on me and I couldn't retract it in time. (I was honestly not being arguementative, it has been a while since I read the books and that bit would have been news to me.)

It's cool, didn't mean to sound harsh if I did.

[Gertrude]

As for the oath rod, not a single Aes Sedai would even publicly admit there might be a Black Ajah, so no collective will to root them out.

As for Aes Sedai acting like petty children, yes - this is the point. It doesn't excuse the fact that that is almost exclusively how they are portrayed. It takes a rare Sedai indeed to break out of this mold and I don't find this realistic. You can be driven by petty grievances and still use your brain on occasion. The Grey Ajah, for example, should have been at least used to dealing with people who wield some sort of power even though they don't wield the One Power. To have them all think, uncategorically that no one who is not Aes Sedai is not worth considering is a lazy shortcut. To mediate you have to have some sort of empathy and awareness if you want to be any good at it. Unless their idea of mediation is 'do it my way or I will bully you until you see it my way', which I wouldn't put past them. I don't think Jordan implies that though (I'm fuzzy on any specific examples we might see), and it's certainly not what the Grey strive to be.

[Shryke]

As for the oath rod, not a single Aes Sedai would even publicly admit there might be a Black Ajah, so no collective will to root them out.

As for Aes Sedai acting like petty children, yes - this is the point. It doesn't excuse the fact that that is almost exclusively how they are portrayed. It takes a rare Sedai indeed to break out of this mold and I don't find this realistic. You can be driven by petty grievances and still use your brain on occasion. The Grey Ajah, for example, should have been at least used to dealing with people who wield some sort of power even though they don't wield the One Power. To have them all think, uncategorically that no one who is not Aes Sedai is not worth considering is a lazy shortcut. To mediate you have to have some sort of empathy and awareness if you want to be any good at it. Unless their idea of mediation is 'do it my way or I will bully you until you see it my way', which I wouldn't put past them. I don't think Jordan implies that though (I'm fuzzy on any specific examples we might see), and it's certainly not what the Grey strive to be.

Most Grays have been portrayed like that though. I don't remember many/any of them being particularly petty of the like.

And in many ways, I think it's also a symptom of the Aes Sedai we see. When we really focus on the Aes Sedai, we get mostly the ones in the Tower, involved in it's politics. The ones who stay and live in the Tower get all embroiled in internal politics and such and all the nastiness that entails. Essentially, we're almost exclusively looking at the politicians.

[Humble Asskicker]

I'm out of steam with the debating for now, but I did want to add to the pile of praise for Shryke and fion's well-thought out and well articulated points of argument.

I was hoping this thread would be a flame-fest, but it turned out to be something better.

[Gertrude]

I might have to be reminded then, because although Greys might tend to be more aware, I don't remember it being significant enough to be remarked on. And yes, the Tower Sedai are the career politicians.

You're right that the Tower is a diverse collection of people with dissimilar interests and goals - this makes it even more unlikely (in my eyes) that the only thing uniting them - the idea of the Tower - could turn grind them out all fitting a single template. Their education and long life span influencing their outlook might explain part of this, but not all I think.

[wolverine]

Ask yourself, what does an Aes Sedai DO? After they've been trained, what do they do with their time? I mean, you've just been raised to the shawl and now you've got a whole wide world ahead of you, mystical powers at your commands and really, no direction. No over-arching purpose you don't set for yourself.

I would hope that during their training they weed out the ones who would just lay around watching plays, drinking wine, and eating potato chips for the rest of their lives once raised to the shawl.

It is kind of odd though. They all seem to have some very distinct purposes in the book. Why would there not be more like Cadsuane who just go off an do what they want? Or are there more like her? Why wouldn't there be more trying to gain power in other parts of Randland? What would the tower do if an Aes Sedai was queen of a nation?

[Old Nan]

In TDR it was clearly stated, by one of the Shienarans (Uno, I think), that the DO cannot see through the raven's eyes. They have to report to a Myrddraal. If the DO can't do it, then the Forsaken certainly shouldn't be able to.

Well, the DO also has the troublesome restriction of being bound behind the seals. And it's somewhat debatable whether he'd be able to do something like that in any case; he can destroy and pervert and so forth, but even when he's freed enough to project into Shaidar Haran (a living thing in its own right) he can't do more than locally shut off the True Source. Channeling in the WOT is precisely that: find a source of power, channel it into yourself, and use it to weave the Pattern into a slightly different form; the DO is himself one of these sources of power, while the True Source (the Creator?) is the other. Can he channel himself?

It's certainly not very similar to any other weaves shown in the series, or anything else except Perrin's wolfbrother double vision in EOTW, but I don't think it's too problematic. If anything, the rest of the weaves the Forsaken have been shown using are too staid. Yes, the Aes Sedai are unadventuresome, but there should be much more efficient ways to kill lots of people than lightning (!) bolts.

[Old Nan]

I would hope that during their training they weed out the ones who would just lay around watching plays, drinking wine, and eating potato chips for the rest of their lives once raised to the shawl.

Yet for all the tough talk Sheriam gives about the novitiate it's clear they don't. So long as the initiate has the requisite strength and the courage/skill to pass the final exam, they don't care. And then the Aes Sedai culture of complete privacy takes care of the rest; Egwene commits a major faux pas when she chews out the Hall in TGS.

What would the tower do if an Aes Sedai was queen of a nation?

When they discuss Elayne it's mentioned that it's always ended badly. Of course, Moiraine also claimed that each queen of Manetheren was AS, so what do we know. (I believe the AS don't actually have records predating the Trolloc Wars, i.e. when Manetheren was around, but I could be wrong)

The reason it stands out so strongly is that it's prevalent in just a few of the novels, and gets no mention in the others.

No, it's mentioned in, at the minimum, every single book focusing heavily on the affairs of a female-only organization. It's just that references to spanking are somewhat rarer than ~100 in 3 million words in most non-fetish modern literature. Especially when it's so heavily gendered and used on adult women.

Wining the award for most what the fuck this doesn't make any fucking sense ever award, awarded here and now in this awarding award ceremony.

If that wasn't the worst single scene in the series, it was close, and possibly only because its competitors were supposed to be trippy and incomprehensible.

[Poobah]

I thought it was a great overall idea, but the execution (especially the speed of it) was just complete "WTF?!?!".

Yea you are right. I didn't mean the idea as such but just the actual way it happened.

And in many ways, I think it's also a symptom of the Aes Sedai we see. When we really focus on the Aes Sedai, we get mostly the ones in the Tower, involved in it's politics. The ones who stay and live in the Tower get all embroiled in internal politics and such and all the nastiness that entails. Essentially, we're almost exclusively looking at the politicians.

And the ones we do see who aren't members of that group of movers-and-shakers for 90% or more of readers get put into the "Random Aes Sedai #678" category and then forgotten, even if they appear on subsequent occasions.

I would hope that during their training they weed out the ones who would just lay around watching plays, drinking wine, and eating potato chips for the rest of their lives once raised to the shawl.

I have to smile a little to think of some AS who didn't even notice the WT Civil War because she stays in her quarters the whole time eating crisps (potato chips for you Americans) and just lazing around watching the TV Ter'angreal she found.