Towers of Midnight

[Gertrude]

Yet for all the tough talk Sheriam gives about the novitiate it's clear they don't. So long as the initiate has the requisite strength and the courage/skill to pass the final exam, they don't care.

The current White Tower is a shell of what it once was. I'm sure it used to have much stricter standards, but nowadays they take anyone who can channel and isn't a complete coward or moron - if they can channel strongly enough, I'm sure they would find a way to keep them anyway. They are desperate to fill their ranks.

What I would love to see Egwene do with the Tower is to truly return to their roots - servants for all. Now that they have rediscovered Traveling and Dreaming among other wondrous weaves, they need to share their gifts with the world. Station Aes Sedai in every backwater and city so they can actually help people. The people get used to the Aes Sedai and can associate positive feelings towards them instead of the fear and negativity that exists, and the Aes Sedai get shaken out of their complacency and arrogance. It allows them to find girls who can channel and save those that would die of it. All Aes Sedai would be expected to spend a certain percentage of time in service of this type and if you really don't want to do it, well - there's always the Kin for you to join, right?

[David Selig]

Couple of things here:

1) no one knew the Oath Rod could remove Oaths as I remember

My memory is a bit hazy on that, but if nobody tried experimenting removing oaths during all those years they've been using it, it really doesn't speak well for their intelligence.

2) no Aes Sedai would stand for what Egwene did with reswearing oaths and such in peace time. It's the equivalent of interrogating every person in an entire country, one at a time, to find out who the terrorists and criminals are. People don't take that kind of shit, and certainly not a group as in love with their own independance as the Aes Sedai. (Remember, the biggest and first rule for Aes Sedai is that each sister's business is private) The whole "End of the World" thing is the only reason she pulls it off. People are almost always willing to be more forgiving of authoritarianism in a crisis.

I am still not convinced. Sure, in our world it won't work since we don't have a perfect tool to give 100% reliable confessions. But the AS have it in the Oath Rod. If you are an Aes Sedai who's not a Black Ajah, why wouldn't you want to get rid of the huge danger which the Black Ajah poses if there's such a 100% reliable way to do it? And doing it to 1000 Aes Sedai is very different than interrogating the millions in a whole country. Sure it's an extreme measure, but nobody even proposed and thought about proposing it before Egwene did, despite its obvious benefits.

The whole attitude of the Aes Sedai towards the Black Ajah is hard to swallow. The vast majority of them refused even to consider the possibility it exists at the start of the series, even though it's common knowledge that Darkfriends exist in every area of society and it's logical to assume their leaders will put particular emphasis on infiltrating the centre of Randland power which is the White Tower. Even after the Liandrin breakaway, a some of them ignored the clear evidence.

How are they insignificant? All those groups you are talking about (minus the Kin) are from the periphery of the main continent. They are all part of the societies that are not part of the continent. The Aes Sedai, by virtue of their area of power, are far more powerful. Politically anyway. The White Tower is one of the most powerful political forces in the world. The division of the Tower is in no way insignificant.

Not insignificant, sure, but in no way crucial in the grand scheme of things. There's enough other channellers Rand can use in the Last Battle and the political power of the Tower is greatly weakened, since Rand and the Seanchan control most of Randland.

For all her faults, Cadsuane is one of the few who has her priorities right - helping Rand first and the Tower second, unlike most of the others, who can't see beyond their precious Tower and realise the big picture of the world.

One of the most strange things about them as an organisation is their refusal to actively recruit new members until Egwene changed the policy. It's really strange, this way they ensured the Tower will decline in the long run, even though they had such an easy way to increase their numbers. All they had to do is recruit more actively, and it's not like most of them don't have a lot of time to spare.

[Quijote Light]

I saw someone mention in the previous thread that Rand is now a combination of himself and LT and someone else postulate that he is made up of parts of all his incarnations. I was wondering if maybe, although he will mostly be Rand, he's actually more like Birgitte was in the world of dreams. The Dragon is a Hero of the Horn after all.

Also, Rand is going to visit Egwene. Will he immediately be broaching the subject of LT's original plan for attacking the Dark One? I'm thinking that he'll have to work his way to that, but that it will be the main objective of the visit.

[Gertrude]

I saw someone mention in the previous thread that Rand is now a combination of himself and LT and someone else postulate that he is made up of parts of all his incarnations. I was wondering if maybe, although he will mostly be Rand, he's actually more like Birgitte was in the world of dreams. The Dragon is a Hero of the Horn after all.

Do you mean in how she was able to remember all of her other lives? I think Rand has been given a glimpse, but won't be able to retain all of it in the waking world - isn't he already forgetting? He might be able to hang onto parts of LTT because he actively accessed that facet before seeing the truth. Birgitte herself is losing hold of her knowledge now that she is flesh. It seems Birgitte was able to remain essentially herself through all of her incarnations, so I'm betting Rand will as well. In fact, if you look at it that way, the argument that Rand's personality will change is refuted - they share the same core being and the only thing that differentiates them is experience. That is much easier to assimilate than a different personality.

[fionwe1987]

Moiraine is an exceptional character and I agree she's the best of the lot. Even she doesn't like the fact that Rand has his own ideas on how to proceed, however. She may have had some reason in the beginning, but she couldn't really accept that he might have had some insight into this gig. I mean, it wasn't like he was born for this exact reason and the Pattern has no way of aiding him, right? As for Cads, you're gonna have to give me an example because all I see of her is her bullying people around her because she knows what needs to be done. Instead of trying to intimidate Tam when he comes to her with some very valid concerns about his son, does she ever think that hey, perhaps he has some insights on how to reach Rand? Nope - he's just an obstacle and she intimidates him (or tries to - go Tam!) so he will stop bothering her. Shows how much she thinks of other people, doesn't it?

Moiraine is exceptional, to an extent, and that is because she spends so long out of the Tower. She isn't in a location where her every move depends on how much stronger she is than the sister next to her. She didn't spend all that time as the strongest Aes Sedai in the Tower, she spent it as a lonely AS doing all she can to find a needle in the haystack before someone demolishes the barn. She did this with so much vigor and passion, I think she almost started wishing she was the Dragon Reborn, since in a way, she had all the tools to save the world (except exceptional strength in the Power). So she tries to make Rand do what she would do, because I think she must have spent 20 years thinking of ways the Dragon would have to move to save the world. It took her some time to admit she's just the Pattern's tool.

The interesting thing is, Rand started imitating her after she died, because she faced the same choice he faces, and went out looking like the successful hero.

And Cadsuane? Sure, she thinks she knows best. Usually because she does know best. But that doesn't mean she dismisses the ability of others to throw a spanner in her wheels. Even Daigian, the weakest sister alive, who was viewed as a servant by other AS, got respect from Cadsuane. She knew this woman was clever, and so she used her to spy on Sisters. She's probably the only one who never underestimated Verin, which earns her tons of respect from me.

Verin herself is also an exception, of course. More so than any other AS, I think, because she used her relatively weaker strength, and the expected Brown Ajah stereotype to such great effect.

I'm not basing my opinion on how others percieve Ebou Dar, I'm getting it from the Ebou Dari themselves. They have ritualized the glory of the knife fight. A woman wears a marriage knife that shows how many of her kids have died in fights and which ones were too cowardly to claim. Tylin isn't upset that her son killed a man in a duel, but that his widow was going to be a bother. It's a short hand way to show how this culture is distinct and I think it's random and lazy.

Yes, Ebou Dari themselves do have a propensity to knife fights. But it isn't exactly an Altaran characteristic. We've seen Altaran's who don't bother with knives. Tarna, for one, though she is a heterosexual Red. Myrelle, on the other hand, does have a marriage knife. It really isn't all that different from all Quartheen crying, except we don't spend that much time in Quarth.

Of course this is my opinion and it's just as valid as yours. I think I have been pointing out areas where I think he has strengths and explaining what I think are his weaknesses.

I'm not saying my opinion is more valid, though. I completely disagree with Sword of the Morning that no one has a right to personal reasons for disliking WoT.

An all Aes Sedai cast - I shudder at the thought. Jordan does show many of the nobles through the eyes of an outsider (our heroes) - the Tairen lords playing cards with Mat, the Cairhienen lords' shock at Rand's laws giving commoners rights against them, we see it in Elayne at times. I'm not meant to like them, but I don't have the same level of distaste for them as I do the Aes Sedai. Jordan specifically made them mysterious, powerful and a little dangerous, then he dismantled them before our eyes and showed they weren't truly worthy of being put on that pedestal. I'm pretty sure we weren't meant to like them as a whole.

Of course we weren't. I totally agree on that. What I'm saying is that if we didn't have a major outside perspective on them (like we didn't, in the beginning), we wouldn't have seen them crash into 50 feet of crap from that pedestal.

On spanking: while the numerous mentions of spanking, switching, paddling, etc may not be proof that Jordan is a perv, it is odd and I see it as an example of his self-indulgence. If one spanking is good, then more is better! I described Nyneave's dress, so now I shall describe all their dresses - it'll be great. This is where an editor should have said, perhaps you could tone that down, huh?

Agreed.

Mostly Fionwe quotes from now on

The problem is that it doesn't really make sense at the time and to a casual reader all this goes past them. Making the whole thing seem totally stupid. When you lay it out yea it seems like there is a lot of stuff going on, but I or some casual readers skim it, it just doesn't make sense and seems stupid / lolol Egwene Godmode, or even when I read it back in the day how many years before all this comes out? It might make sense to you but that is because you've taken some serious time to explain this stuff, but someone just reading through the series? Especially a normal reader who just reads one book after another as they are published... I think not.

I dunno about that. I caught a lot of this stuff on the very first read. Sure, I refined my ideas on further reads and on forums, but all this stuff wasn't way over my head on the first read.

Again all this stuff makes sense to you because you have taken the time to explain it. I read this scene and think "wtf these people are throwing up" and this isn't the only time people women act all like this in WoT, especially Aes Sedai suddenly looking sick. You might look unsettled but looking like you are about to throw up?

I'd say I can take the time to explain it because it made sense to me! :)

The only other times I can think of Aes Sedai looking sick is when the Black Tower alliance was proposed, and when Egwene exposed the Black Ajah to the Hall. I'd have felt green in their shoes too.

And who sicks up and who looks like it was a really obvious clue to me about the politics even the first time. The original Sitters from the Tower looked suspicious from pretty early to me. Jordan isn't as obscure as Erikson, for example.

Pacing is a part of storytelling.

But not the sum total of storytelling, surely?

I enjoy Wheel of Time but it is possible to like something and still be critical. In fact I would say this is the best way to appreciate something since the other option is mindless devotion, which is by definition mindless.

Of course it is! I absolutely agree that WoT has flaws, some of them major. I'm just not seen expressing criticisms here because there's enough people doing that any way. Imagine a thread where everyone only talked about one aspect of a work and kept patting themselves on the back for hating it equally. :ack:

Pacing does indeed make it harder to see the subtleties, but frankly I think the problem is that Jordan just isn't good at keeping people in the loop about this stuff. Another poster mentioned all these minor characters who pop up here and there and then there and we are never reminded of (instead of "oh there's <aes sedai #284> <reminder why we might recognise here name>" we get "mm what brocade should I wear today") and then we are expected to remember after over a thousand pages that random names x, y and z might be politiking with or possibly against a,b and c and that q might be either involved or playing both sides. If the whole White Tower civil war had been handled in such a way that it didn't take 9-10 books to resolve? Hell which book do they even march out of Saildar - LoC maybe? That's 6 whole books, around 6000 pages with all these details that you have picked out sprinkled VERY lightly.

Maybe that's why I benefited from reading the series up to CoT in one go. But honestly, it isn't as hard as you make it sound. You don't have to know the name of each Tower Sitter to know that as a block, they support Lelaine or Romanda and there's something very fishy about them. Sure, the details are spread a little thin, but that itself is a result of the decisions RJ made with the later books. It isn't that RJ is bad at keeping people in the loop. Its just that Takima is mentioned as a Sitter loyal to Lelaine, and someone who was a Sitter in the Tower, even someone who keeps going her own way and agreeing only with the other Sitters from the Tower, but even though we basically get this each time we meet her, maybe those reading the series when each book is released just fail to put her actions in context with what she's done before. It is like butter spread too thin. The point is, again, that this is because of the pacing decisions in the latter novels. Not because the politics is bad or simple or anything.

Jordan does handle this well at least, in my opinion. I have no fucking idea how it makes sense for the Aes Sedai to come up with such a blatently retarded power structure though. But he handles ripping it apart pretty well.

How many stories have we read where the strongest wizard is the leader? Its something that's been around since LotR. I just give RJ credit for rightly ridiculing the concept, and introducing the Wise One's, whose leader is the second weakest in the Power, among the characters we know.

I agree that Elaida is more believable than Cersei, but as I said at the start of my post I put a lot of her going totally fucking insane down to Fain.

I'm surprised at the amount of agreement in this thread! :cheers:

I also mostly read for the big climaxes. Of everything in Wheel of Time Jordan certainly does the massive 'blow the special effects budget' climaxes the best, and I think he does them a lot better than a lot of writers, especially when he's doing stuff like Rand's assault on Caemlyn where he juggles multiple PoVs and keeps the action up.

Well, yeah, I like those, but I think he's also really good at powerful scenes with just two people or so in it. I think what Tolkien could to in setting the atmosphere for the outdoors, RJ could with the indoors. I love those scenes where some people sit in a room and talk, and you get an idea of a whole world in motion, and also a lot about the characters, based on how they perceive these events.

Aes Sedai aren't just nobles though. They are supposed to be highly educated wizards. Not only do they live a hell of a long time but they are educated very extensively and in general these two things should give one a slightly different perspective. I know the entire fucking shithole of an organisation is institutionally fucked up in every way, but even so individuals can still not play to the stereotypes. It feels like most AS we meet, especially non main cast AS are pretty much all cast from the same mould. Though it doesn't help at all that I can never remember who the fuck anyone is because there is almost never any reference reminding me who the fuck anyone is; if someone gets mentioned in a one off like 4 books ago and show up again I am expected to remember this. Frankly I feel lucky that I occasionally get reminded whose side some of the various AS are on. When 90% of the organisation walks around carrying a big placard that says "I am a tool" it's pretty easy to feel contempt for the whole damn lot of them.

Two things... as you noted, the contempt is almost certainly meant to be felt. This is a failed organization resting on the laurels of its past members. Which is why you can feel excitement that Egwene is supposed to make this place "greater and stronger than ever before". Obviously, one part of this is going to be the inclusion of the male Aes Sedai (which I'm fairly sure will be a matter of discussion between Rand and Egwene soon), but these women themselves have to realize they've been useless asshats.

Second... yes, they are highly educated wizards. They are, in fact, the only educated wizards. What's more, they're educated wizards trained and living in the tallest building in the world, situated in the most beautiful, wealthy and powerful city in the world. They're part of the most powerful political entity in the world, one that has dictated (and is still supposed to be able to dictate) terms to every king and queen in the world. In all this they are like nobles, only some of the most powerful nobles in the world, who have been so for frickin three thousand years. Plus, a lot of them tend to live in the Tower, leaving only when something comes up.

And their training is more indoctrination than anything else. To become an Accepted, you need to want to be Aes Sedai and belong to the Tower more than anything else in the world, including saving your home village, living with your husband, etc. That kind of mental trauma only increases the Aes Sedai's blind devotion to the Tower.

The end result is an "ivory tower" mentality. In this case, it is even literal. The only Aes Sedai shown to be different are those who spend a long time outside. Cadsuane even talks about it, saying how she began learning about the limits of her powers, and hence the best way to use them, only when she went out of the Tower. Living in luxurious rooms, with access to the best library in the world, with delicious food of your choice available whenever you want it, servants to meet your every need and a ridiculously huge stipend that you can get a raise in if you want... I would be surprised if the sisters in the Tower had any reasonable way of looking at life.

But the good thing is, Egwene has started accepting women older than 18. Women who have lived lives and succeeded or failed without the Tower as a backup. They should be far less susceptible to the indoctrination of the Tower. Hopefully, this will mean a swift dismantling of the old order.

I think that this was deliberate on Jordan's part: he sets them up and then knocks them down, clearly showing the difference between seeming and being, but I think that that he sort of is too successful for his own good in his dismantling of the AS. It gets to the point where you wonder how these incompetents could rule a cardboard box, let alone a city.

I don't think so. He's just showing us the extremely dirty underbelly of an organization that looks highly successful from the outside, Plus, a lot of the Aes Sedai succeed based on reputation alone, and that was built hundreds of years ago by far more successful women.

I never maintained that he was a dirty old pervert. But I think he did have a thing for a bit of S&M. I suppose that does depend on how you define perversion though.

That, to me, is as ridiculous as accusing Martin of being into incest and pedophilia.

I just wanna finish by stating my respect and admiration for Fionwe continued and moderate responses, which make this a discussion and not a flame war.

Thank you! And Gertrude and Shryke too. I must say this really has been a stimulating discussion. Its made me more pumped up for ToM. The one thing the pacing problems have done is make the resolutions of long overdue plots that much more exciting. There's the usual emotions you experience with good plot resolution, but also a sense of "FINALLY you saw sense!".

[Lightning Lord]

The Cairhienen do scheme and plot a lot. But again, you seem to have strange expectations of what alot of scheming and plotting looks like.

Plus, you are told all this, not by the author, but by the characters. And the characters have been shown, time and time again, to have over-inflated expectations of things. The power of myth and all that.

We're told this by the characters that DO the scheming. We're told this by Thom, who is portrayed as a master of the Game. We're told this by Morgase, by Moiraine, by Asmodean, by Siuan. Other Forsaken might have mentioned it as well, hard to say.

Point being, the experts in the world at Daes Dae'mar are the ones telling us just how expert everyone is. And everyone here has been going on about how skilled at manipulation those characters are, so it's not like I pulled that out of thin air.

[Gertrude]

And Cadsuane? Sure, she thinks she knows best. Usually because she does know best. But that doesn't mean she dismisses the ability of others to throw a spanner in her wheels. Even Daigian, the weakest sister alive, who was viewed as a servant by other AS, got respect from Cadsuane. She knew this woman was clever, and so she used her to spy on Sisters. She's probably the only one who never underestimated Verin, which earns her tons of respect from me.

But they were still Sisters, no? The fact that her first reaction when dealing with Tam was to intimidate him with the Power says a lot about her. I do like her and agree that she has her head on straight, but she is still buying into a lot of the Tower bullshit.

Yes, Ebou Dari themselves do have a propensity to knife fights. But it isn't exactly an Altaran characteristic. We've seen Altaran's who don't bother with knives.

My point was that I find this aspect of Jordan's worldbuilding to be shallow. He gives people seemingly random characteristics and anyone we see differing from that norm is commented on as an anomaly. The Aiel are an exception in that he built this alien culture that was well reasoned. Of course we may not know exactly why a goldsmith is particularly revered (well, you may :) ) but the driving force behind most of their culture is water, and to a lesser degree, shelter. He shows this in their language, the respect given the roofmistress, etc and it all makes sense. Ebou Dari liking knives is given no context. I think details like this, unless they are going to be given some context, are more distracting than enhancing. If he's still dead set on giving it a unique flair (nothing wrong with that) then I prefer it not to be shoved down my throat just for the sake of it. It has the effect of someone obnoxiously showing off a new toy - we get it, it's cool. Move on, please.

Of course we weren't. I totally agree on that. What I'm saying is that if we didn't have a major outside perspective on them (like we didn't, in the beginning), we wouldn't have seen them crash into 50 feet of crap from that pedestal.

Crash landing off that pedestal didn't do them any favors, but they still are a train wreck that is hard to like through actions entirely their own.

And their training is more indoctrination than anything else. To become an Accepted, you need to want to be Aes Sedai and belong to the Tower more than anything else in the world, including saving your home village, living with your husband, etc. That kind of mental trauma only increases the Aes Sedai's blind devotion to the Tower.

<snip>

But the good thing is, Egwene has started accepting women older than 18. Women who have lived lives and succeeded or failed without the Tower as a backup. They should be far less susceptible to the indoctrination of the Tower. Hopefully, this will mean a swift dismantling of the old order.

To be honest, I had thought about their education as being propaganda, but I hadn't factored in the age of the girls they were teaching and how they hadn't really experienced life yet. I can see that would make a big difference.

Most of my criticisms come down to execution. Here's the thing - when I take the time to examine all the layers in detail (with your and others' help) I can see that a lot more is going on that I didn't consciously take in. My impressions of what things are like and what is actually there are at odds. Even though I can see where I was mistaken, I stand by my impressions. The themes of the Aes Sedai are good - pretty great even, but it gets lost in a sea of interchangeable, useless bitches. The bloat and pacing of the later books wasn't what damped my enthusiasm, rather it was the last straw.

[Old Nan]

But they were still Sisters, no? The fact that her first reaction when dealing with Tam was to intimidate him with the Power says a lot about her. I do like her and agree that she has her head on straight, but she is still buying into a lot of the Tower bullshit.

Hey, at least she didn't spank him, like she has several (!) kings and queens.

[Poobah]

That, to me, is as ridiculous as accusing Martin of being into incest and pedophilia.

Thing is I'm not making an assault on his character or anything like those allegations would imply. I'm not going to contend this point and it isn't like Wheel of Time is Kushiel's Dart or anything, it's just a sort of mm seems like Jordan liked a bit of spanking musing that kinda pops into my head when I reread some of the books. Not a negative comment, just a sort of funny one eyebrow raised ah. And I think the comparison with Martin is pretty thin if not entirely strawmanny.

I dunno about that. I caught a lot of this stuff on the very first read. Sure, I refined my ideas on further reads and on forums, but all this stuff wasn't way over my head on the first read.

I didnt!

I'd say I can take the time to explain it because it made sense to me! :)

The only other times I can think of Aes Sedai looking sick is when the Black Tower alliance was proposed, and when Egwene exposed the Black Ajah to the Hall. I'd have felt green in their shoes too.

I just think this kinda thing is a gross exaggeration. These people are fucking Aes Sedai not bed wetting little girls, or they should be. We need some AS from the Age of Legends to come out of cryostasis and chew the lot of them out. Maybe Rand can channel LTT for a while and bust a "what the shit has my goddamn organisation come to, I WAS FIRST AMONGST THE SERVANTS, I SUMMONED THE NINE RODS, I WORE TAMYRLIN'S RING AND FOR IT TO COME TO THIS!? FML /balefire". I would pay BS good money to write that scene.

And who sicks up and who looks like it was a really obvious clue to me about the politics even the first time. The original Sitters from the Tower looked suspicious from pretty early to me. Jordan isn't as obscure as Erikson, for example.

Yeah I just don't pay attention to this stuff.

Of course it is! I absolutely agree that WoT has flaws, some of them major. I'm just not seen expressing criticisms here because there's enough people doing that any way. Imagine a thread where everyone only talked about one aspect of a work and kept patting themselves on the back for hating it equally. :ack:

But the how else can we make threads about Terry Goodkind?

Maybe that's why I benefited from reading the series up to CoT in one go. But honestly, it isn't as hard as you make it sound. You don't have to know the name of each Tower Sitter to know that as a block, they support Lelaine or Romanda and there's something very fishy about them. Sure, the details are spread a little thin, but that itself is a result of the decisions RJ made with the later books. It isn't that RJ is bad at keeping people in the loop. Its just that Takima is mentioned as a Sitter loyal to Lelaine, and someone who was a Sitter in the Tower, even someone who keeps going her own way and agreeing only with the other Sitters from the Tower, but even though we basically get this each time we meet her, maybe those reading the series when each book is released just fail to put her actions in context with what she's done before. It is like butter spread too thin. The point is, again, that this is because of the pacing decisions in the latter novels. Not because the politics is bad or simple or anything.

Yeah reading them with years apart you miss loads. I've done one full reread and even I picked up some stuff then that I never saw in my first just because of reading this stuff close together. But yea mostly a lot of stuff goes past me, I've been a speedreader since my first year at university and a lot of this stuff just passes me right by. Also in books and in real life I have an absolutely piss poor memory for names, though my memory for details is bizarrely damn good.

How many stories have we read where the strongest wizard is the leader? Its something that's been around since LotR. I just give RJ credit for rightly ridiculing the concept, and introducing the Wise One's, whose leader is the second weakest in the Power, among the characters we know.

Well usually the most powerful wizard is also the wisest too or just best too. Saruman was recognised as the wisest of all of the wizards of middle earth. Saruman does, I believe mean "clever/skillful man". In a totally different example the leader of the white council in The Dresden Files puts up a ward that stops an entire army of ravening nearly magic immune demons and performs instant telepathic communication to a very large pitch dark room full of very scared and confused wizards to turn a clusterfuck into a situation where everyone doesn't die. Even the sardonic Dresden comments that "you don't become Merlin by collecting bottle caps" or something to that effect. Also that guy is a fucking Machiavellian politician-bastard.

The thing is the Aes Sedai also suck at using the power. If they couldn't link Rand could probably take the entire tower in 1 vs 1000 combat. The yellows haven't developed any new healing methods in 3000 years. Occasionally some new accepted or whatever has developed some weave of her own before coming to the tower and then the sisters jump on it and go "omg yay we learned a new weave to keep bugs off of us, better make it a super secret". For an organisation that stresses strength in the power they are terrible at wielding that strength, ON TOP OF all their other faults.

Two things... as you noted, the contempt is almost certainly meant to be felt. This is a failed organization resting on the laurels of its past members. Which is why you can feel excitement that Egwene is supposed to make this place "greater and stronger than ever before". Obviously, one part of this is going to be the inclusion of the male Aes Sedai (which I'm fairly sure will be a matter of discussion between Rand and Egwene soon), but these women themselves have to realize they've been useless asshats.

Well this is one of my problems with Egwene. The longer she's been Amyrlin the more she's backpedalled on everything. She's settled in to the role and just become back looking, everything becomes about former glory and not innovation. Personally I like to see the Rand/Egwene dichotomy as Chaos vs Order, Change vs Stagnation, Vital vs moribund. I had a lot of this in my bigpost that I wrote but which got lost :( She just gets everything from the past (gets all of her 'new' weaves from Moghedian for example) whereas Rand is the forward looking one: he propels Randland into the steam-age in like a year by setting up schools. The whites probably haven't even figured out Pythagoras yet.

Also I totally agree with everything you said about indoctrination etc.

[Old Nan]

An interesting article I don't believe has been mentioned in these threads, via Wert's site.

[Muttering Bill]

Well, the DO also has the troublesome restriction of being bound behind the seals. And it's somewhat debatable whether he'd be able to do something like that in any case; he can destroy and pervert and so forth, but even when he's freed enough to project into Shaidar Haran (a living thing in its own right) he can't do more than locally shut off the True Source. Channeling in the WOT is precisely that: find a source of power, channel it into yourself, and use it to weave the Pattern into a slightly different form; the DO is himself one of these sources of power, while the True Source (the Creator?) is the other. Can he channel himself?

It's certainly not very similar to any other weaves shown in the series, or anything else except Perrin's wolfbrother double vision in EOTW, but I don't think it's too problematic. If anything, the rest of the weaves the Forsaken have been shown using are too staid. Yes, the Aes Sedai are unadventuresome, but there should be much more efficient ways to kill lots of people than lightning (!) bolts.

I can see the "the DO couldn't do it because he's pinned down in SG" argument. Maybe now that he's got some breathing room he can. Who knows?

I didn't read the prologue (because I'm not paying for it), so I don't really know the specifics on what she did. I'm just guessing from the comments here. It sounds like she projected her consciousness into the raven to look through it's eyes. To draw an ASoIaF comparisson, like the way Bran tranplants himself into the wolf's (Summer?) body in his dreams. Yes?

There's really no precedence for this type of a weave to exist. The closest thing we have is the eavesdropping trick. But even then, they aren't tranported to another room to listen; the sound is drawn to them and then played through a medium (ie. Moiraine's blue stone). So if she drew the vision to her, and displayed it on a crystal ball (or whatever) then that fine. It's all stays consistant.

But as it stands, none of the telepathic links demonstrated so far have one character seeing through the eyes of another. Not Perrin with the wolves (I don't remember this "double vision" thing you mentioned), and not the ta'veren or balefire links. Actually, the only thing that may be similar is how the Finns collected the memories they gave to Mat, or the collumns at Ruidean. But I'd suspect there are different rules for memories.

It feels like too much of a stretch to me - if my assumptions of the process are correct. Especially when added to the earlier assertion that raven's need to report. Although that certainly wouldn't be the first thing that has been changed from the first 3 books. <_<

When they discuss Elayne it's mentioned that it's always ended badly. Of course, Moiraine also claimed that each queen of Manetheren was AS, so what do we know. (I believe the AS don't actually have records predating the Trolloc Wars, i.e. when Manetheren was around, but I could be wrong)

As I remember, they say that no queen has been openly Aes Sedai since the Trolloc Wars (Manetheren was probably the last - I forgot her name). Well, that certainly ended badly, but not because she was AS. Or maybe there were a few more and those ended badly (politically). But that also tells us that there have been at least a few AS queens since who hid the fact.

The AS want a queen. They tried to set up Moiraine as queen of Cairhien in New Spring, which likely only failed because she fled the Tower. And then they are all giddy over Elayne - never even a thought of not making her a full sister to avoid potential complications. They'd probably have raised Morgase if she'd had a bit more power, even if it would have meant lowering their standards.

I'm sure they must have a few documents predating the Trolloc Wars. Though maybe just a page or two. The Tower didn't fall in the TW's, so their library should have remained intact. Then it's just a matter of them weathering another 2,000 years. Verin's document that linked Ishamael to Ba'alzamon for instance - it sounded like the woman who had it before her had destroyed the rest. But other, less dangerous, books have probably survived.

Couple of things here:

1) no one knew the Oath Rod could remove Oaths as I remember

Also, nobody knew that the DO's oath broke the 3 Oaths. If they suspected someone of being Black Ajah, they might just ask and when the woman answered with a flat out "no, I am not Black Ajah" they would believe it had to be the truth.

Of course, how they can be unbound by the 3 Oaths but still achieve/retain the ageless look that come with them is another matter entirely.

[Old Nan]

But as it stands, none of the telepathic links demonstrated so far have one character seeing through the eyes of another. Not Perrin with the wolves (I don't remember this "double vision" thing you mentioned), and not the ta'veren or balefire links. Actually, the only thing that may be similar is how the Finns collected the memories they gave to Mat, or the collumns at Ruidean. But I'd suspect there are different rules for memories.

It feels like too much of a stretch to me - if my assumptions of the process are correct. Especially when added to the earlier assertion that raven's need to report. Although that certainly wouldn't be the first thing that has been changed from the first 3 books.

Here's the relevant section of the prologue:

Graendal sent a servant for one of her dove cages. They arrived with the bird before Aran'gar was back, and Graendal carefully wove the True Power—once again thrilling in the rush of holding it—and crafted a complex weave of Spirit. Could she remember how to do this? It had been so long.

She overlaid the weave on the bird's mind. Her vision seemed to snap. In a moment, she could see two images in front of her—the world as she saw it and a shadowed version of what the bird saw. If she focused, she could turn her attention to one or the other.

It made her mind hurt. The vision of a bird was entirely different from that of a human being: She could see a much larger field, and the colors were so vivid as to be nearly blinding, but the view was blurry, and she had trouble judging distance.

She tucked the bird's sight into the back of her head. A dove would be unobtrusive, but using one was more difficult than a raven or a rat, the Dark One's own favored eyes. The weave worked better on those than it did other animals. Though, most vermin that watched for the Dark One had to report back before he knew what they'd seen. Why that was, she was not certain—the intricacies of the True Power's special weaves never had made much sense to her. Not as much as they had to Aginor, at least.

Actually, what this really sounds a lot like is the warder bond in Winter's Heart:

Opening herself to saidar, she linked with Aviendha, sharing a smile with her. The increased awareness of one another, the more intimate sharing of emotions and physical feelings, was always a pleasure with her sister. It was very much like what they would soon share with Rand. She had worked this out carefully, studied it from every angle. What she had been able to learn of the Aiel adoption weaves had been a great help. That ceremony had been when the idea first came to her.

Carefully she wove Spirit, a flow of over a hundred threads, every thread placed just so, and laid the weave on Aviendha sitting on the floor, then did the same to Min on the table's edge. In a way, they were not two separate weaves at all. They glowed with a precise similarity, and it seemed that looking at one, she saw the other as well. These were not the weaves used in the adoption ceremony, but they used the same principles. They included; what happened to one meshed in that weave, happened to all in it. As soon as the weaves were in place, she passed the lead of the circle of two to Aviendha. The weaves already made remained, and Aviendha immediately wove identical weaves around Elayne, and around Min again, blending that one until it was indistinguishable from Elayne's before passing control back. They did that very easily now, after a great deal of practice. Four weaves, or rather, three now, yet they all seemed the same weave.

Everything was ready. Aviendha was a rock of confidence as strong as anything Elayne had ever felt from Birgitte. Min sat gripping the edge of the table, her ankles locked together; she could not see the flows, but she gave an assured grin that was only spoiled a little when she licked her lips. Elayne breathed deeply. To her eyes, they three were surrounded and connected by a tracery of Spirit that made the finest lace seem drab. Now if only it worked as she believed it would.

From each of them, she extended the weave in narrow lines toward Rand, twisting the three lines into one, changing it into the Warder bond. That, she laid on Rand as softly as if she were laying a blanket on a baby. The spiderweb of Spirit settled around him, settled into him. He did not even blink, but it was done. She let go of saidar. Done.

Now, there's a qualitative difference between physical sensations and emotions and visuals, but I suppose she can credit the TP for that.

[Shryke]

My memory is a bit hazy on that, but if nobody tried experimenting removing oaths during all those years they've been using it, it really doesn't speak well for their intelligence.

What? Have you been reading the series and the incessant repeats of how fucking incredibly insanely dangerous researching Ter'Angreal is?

It speaks to their common sense and carefulness, not their lack of inelligence.

I am still not convinced. Sure, in our world it won't work since we don't have a perfect tool to give 100% reliable confessions. But the AS have it in the Oath Rod. If you are an Aes Sedai who's not a Black Ajah, why wouldn't you want to get rid of the huge danger which the Black Ajah poses if there's such a 100% reliable way to do it? And doing it to 1000 Aes Sedai is very different than interrogating the millions in a whole country. Sure it's an extreme measure, but nobody even proposed and thought about proposing it before Egwene did, despite its obvious benefits.

The whole attitude of the Aes Sedai towards the Black Ajah is hard to swallow. The vast majority of them refused even to consider the possibility it exists at the start of the series, even though it's common knowledge that Darkfriends exist in every area of society and it's logical to assume their leaders will put particular emphasis on infiltrating the centre of Randland power which is the White Tower. Even after the Liandrin breakaway, a some of them ignored the clear evidence.

Because people don't like mass arrests and interrogations? And certainly not a group as independent minded as the Aes Sedai. Peresonal Freedom is like their number one rule.

And their attitude towards the existance of the Black is alot a product of their arrogance. They are the Aes Sedai after all, of course they are all pure and nice. And suggestion of Dark Friends among them would be slander!

Not insignificant, sure, but in no way crucial in the grand scheme of things. There's enough other channellers Rand can use in the Last Battle and the political power of the Tower is greatly weakened, since Rand and the Seanchan control most of Randland.

For all her faults, Cadsuane is one of the few who has her priorities right - helping Rand first and the Tower second, unlike most of the others, who can't see beyond their precious Tower and realise the big picture of the world.

The Aes Sedai are very crucial. As Rand has been figuring out, and as Cadsuane bludgeons him into realising, wih Aes Sedai on his side his job is alot easier. People trust Aes Sedai to a certain extent and they make negotiating alot easier, as well as lending you a sense of legitimacy.

The weakening of the White Tower's power has been the whole point of the civil war, which was orchestrated by the Black Ajah. To keep the Tower divided ad distracted.

Or course, at the same time, the Pattern has been weaving the Tower breaking apart to give Rand the space he needs to grow into power without Aes Sedai leashes tied around his neck.

One of the most strange things about them as an organisation is their refusal to actively recruit new members until Egwene changed the policy. It's really strange, this way they ensured the Tower will decline in the long run, even though they had such an easy way to increase their numbers. All they had to do is recruit more actively, and it's not like most of them don't have a lot of time to spare.

The current White Tower is a shell of what it once was. I'm sure it used to have much stricter standards, but nowadays they take anyone who can channel and isn't a complete coward or moron - if they can channel strongly enough, I'm sure they would find a way to keep them anyway. They are desperate to fill their ranks.

Actually it's the opposite. While the sister's themselves have been getting weaker and weaker, they've been getting more and more exclusionary about the whole thing too. Looking for less people, finding more reasons to throw people out, etc. It's more of that arrogance at work. Anyone who didn't come to see them didn't want to be an Aes Sedai enough.

[Shryke]

Yeah reading them with years apart you miss loads. I've done one full reread and even I picked up some stuff then that I never saw in my first just because of reading this stuff close together. But yea mostly a lot of stuff goes past me, I've been a speedreader since my first year at university and a lot of this stuff just passes me right by. Also in books and in real life I have an absolutely piss poor memory for names, though my memory for details is bizarrely damn good.

Yeah, a big part of the people's negative reaction to the latter parts of the series is, I believe, the amount of time it took compared to what you got.

The thing, especially PoD and WH, are actually pretty good ... they are just really short and feel like 2 halves of a single book. But the long wait between the 2 halves makes them feel short and incomplete. (probably cause they are). Shit, even CoT isn't that bad when you can jump straight from it to the next volume. (It ends up feeling like an extended prologue to KoD imo)

The long stretched outedness of the story means the small details get forgotten and hazy and people miss important things. Instead of going "Ahh, I see what's going with these couple of Aes Sedai", people go "Who the fuck are these people? I don't remember them. What's going on with Rand dammit!".

The thing is the Aes Sedai also suck at using the power. If they couldn't link Rand could probably take the entire tower in 1 vs 1000 combat. The yellows haven't developed any new healing methods in 3000 years. Occasionally some new accepted or whatever has developed some weave of her own before coming to the tower and then the sisters jump on it and go "omg yay we learned a new weave to keep bugs off of us, better make it a super secret". For an organisation that stresses strength in the power they are terrible at wielding that strength, ON TOP OF all their other faults.

You know, you got me thinking about this here. Maybe part of the issue with the Aes Sedai is that the most powerful in the Power are stuck using all their time NOT using the power and instead playing politics. Those weaker in the power are have all the time to use the power, but not the strength.

The White Tower has fucked up priorities.

Well this is one of my problems with Egwene. The longer she's been Amyrlin the more she's backpedalled on everything. She's settled in to the role and just become back looking, everything becomes about former glory and not innovation. Personally I like to see the Rand/Egwene dichotomy as Chaos vs Order, Change vs Stagnation, Vital vs moribund. I had a lot of this in my bigpost that I wrote but which got lost :( She just gets everything from the past (gets all of her 'new' weaves from Moghedian for example) whereas Rand is the forward looking one: he propels Randland into the steam-age in like a year by setting up schools. The whites probably haven't even figured out Pythagoras yet.

Yeah, I'm hoping Egwene's change isn't RJ backpeddling and rather something else going on here that will reveal itself before the end.

I never thought of them as Chaos and Order though. Interesting.

Also I totally agree with everything you said about indoctrination etc.

Also remember that Aes Sedai spend a LONG time training. We're talking age of 14 till age of like 35 or something getting the shit indoctrinated out of them.

[David Selig]

What? Have you been reading the series and the incessant repeats of how fucking incredibly insanely dangerous researching Ter'Angreal is?

It speaks to their common sense and carefulness, not their lack of inelligence.

Sure, it's dangerous, but given the importance of the Oath Rod and the maintaining of the inviolable and permanent nature of the Oaths to the outside world, it's common sense that they had to have research the possibility of using it to remove the Oaths long ago, as soon as they started using it on each Sister. Just as the BA hunters did and the Black Ajah must've done millenia ago. The Aes Sedai depend too much on the Three Oaths not to research the possibility of an easy way out of them.

Maybe it was done in secret by the Amyrlin and the Sitters at the time, but IIRC there's not a mention of it in the secret histories, or at least Siuan was not aware of it. Or the Black Ajah removed the records and covered it up. At least this sounds more plausible than nobody thinking of exploring this option and thus leaving the AesSedai ignorant about such a vital part of their traditions and what makes them unique.

[Shryke]

It's completely plausible they'd use the Ter'Angreal without studying it too much. They do the same with most of the Ter'Angreal they use.

It's just too damn dangerous to study them so nobody volunteers for it.

[Poobah]

Sure, it's dangerous, but given the importance of the Oath Rod and the maintaining of the inviolable and permanent nature of the Oaths to the outside world, it's common sense that they had to have research the possibility of using it to remove the Oaths long ago, as soon as they started using it on each Sister. Just as the BA hunters did and the Black Ajah must've done millenia ago. The Aes Sedai depend too much on the Three Oaths not to research the possibility of an easy way out of them.

Maybe it was done in secret by the Amyrlin and the Sitters at the time, but IIRC there's not a mention of it in the secret histories, or at least Siuan was not aware of it. Or the Black Ajah removed the records and covered it up. At least this sounds more plausible than nobody thinking of exploring this option and thus leaving the AesSedai ignorant about such a vital part of their traditions and what makes them unique.

The BA wouldn't have experimented with it either. Ishamael would have told them when he founded them.

[Slick Mongoose]

Yeah, I'm hoping Egwene's change isn't RJ backpeddling and rather something else going on here that will reveal itself before the end.

Well the change (particularly her views on the oath rod) did happen around the same time that "Halima" was giving Egwene massages. I'd hope that one of the forsaken was doing something much more interesting and useful than just giving her headaches.

[Gertrude]

Actually it's the opposite. While the sister's themselves have been getting weaker and weaker, they've been getting more and more exclusionary about the whole thing too. Looking for less people, finding more reasons to throw people out, etc. It's more of that arrogance at work. Anyone who didn't come to see them didn't want to be an Aes Sedai enough.

Maybe desperate isn't the right word, but they certainly are hungry for new blood, they just can't be bothered to go out and look for them. Their dwindling numbers is a great concern and they positively salivate over the treasure trove of girls from the Two Rivers. So I wouldn't call it exclusionary, just that they have become so isolated. What are some examples of them finding excuses to throw women out? I can't remember anything other than perhaps the woman can barely channel. Garenia of the Kin is coming to mind, but I can't remember if she was kicked out or if she ran away.

[The Evil Hat]

Yeah, a big part of the people's negative reaction to the latter parts of the series is, I believe, the amount of time it took compared to what you got.

The thing, especially PoD and WH, are actually pretty good ... they are just really short and feel like 2 halves of a single book. But the long wait between the 2 halves makes them feel short and incomplete. (probably cause they are). Shit, even CoT isn't that bad when you can jump straight from it to the next volume. (It ends up feeling like an extended prologue to KoD imo)

The long stretched outedness of the story means the small details get forgotten and hazy and people miss important things. Instead of going "Ahh, I see what's going with these couple of Aes Sedai", people go "Who the fuck are these people? I don't remember them. What's going on with Rand dammit!".

Yes and no. I read all the released books aside from TGS back to back a few years ago (sort of started my fantasy obsession), and I did enjoy 7/8/9 more than most people on here. I didn't like them as much as the earlier books, but I certainly didn't think they were bad, and Knife of Dreams proved to be one of my favorite volumes. Crossroads of Twilight, however, was just as insufferable and empty, sort of like, as you said, a prologue of several hundred pages that never ends or goes anywhere. Also, Perrin's plot thread is agonizing regardless of the speed.