Towers of Midnight

[Old Nan]

About the politics, manipulation and intrigues I will put this way - if Petir Baelish or Steerpike were nobles in Randland, they would've become the most powerful person in their country very easily.

But we're never really shown how Littlefinger became the most powerful person in Westeros. Martin presents his genius as a fait accompli, his position secure. And from that point, yes, it's easy for him to manipulate people, but while it showcases his cleverness and gives his schemes an added element of risk to lie and backstab without ever 'cashing out' -- but it doesn't require cleverness.

Littlefinger's analogue in WOT is Ishamael/Baalzamon/Moridin, not Elaida or Elayne or Rand or whoever. And his game is just as deep and just as psychological; Littlefinger may be 'grittier,' but that sawdust ain't necessarily filling.

[Galactus]

WoT's strength is the world and the story, not the characterization.

I kind of disagree. Rand's character arc in particular is one of the main reasons why I keep reading the series.

[David Selig]

"Egwene's ridiculously easy manipulation of everyone in the Tower"???

She didn't manipulate anyone, she inspired and proved herself.

Everyone always makes these comments about "LOL Littlefinger would rule the WoT world!" but what is it that makes WOT so "simple" in your mind?

She inspired, yes, but she also manipulated the sisters with ease, nudging them to do exactly what she wanted. Both during her captivity and before that. The supposed masters of Daes Dai Mar were constantly beaten with ease by an 18 year old girl whose plans weren't exactly works of genius by any means. This is one of the main reasons I consider the political side of WoT so simple.

What we've seen from the intrigues of the various nobles is not exactly complicated and Machiavelian either.

[fionwe1987]

She inspired, yes, but she also manipulated the sisters with ease, nudging them to do exactly what she wanted. Both during her captivity and before that. The supposed masters of Daes Dai Mar were constantly beaten with ease by an 18 year old girl whose plans weren't exactly works of genius by any means. This is one of the main reasons I consider the political side of WoT so simple.

I'm again forced to say we're not reading the same books. All her early plans were Siuan's, who has been at it for a long long time. And exactly what was so simple about their plots?

As for Littlefinger, he'd have been eaten alive in WoT. He's good in his world because no one else understands the system as well, and because the law isn't as well developed a system as in WoT. If he had been Aes Sedai, the number of rather open transgressions he's committed would mean he'd be eaten for breakfast by almost any sister. The likes of Verin or Moiraine or Cadsuane would have finished him so fast, he would be a footnote in the story. All of his plots clearly rely on luck to succeed, and he's been incredibly lucky so far. Few WoT plots are built that way. They usually depend on the plotter having some information no one else does because they had better spies, more connections, etc., and that's how they succeed. Very realistic, and never over the top.

Gertrude: Its up to you whether you like it or not, car about it or not, but the politics of WoT remains far from simple.

What we've seen from the intrigues of the various nobles is not exactly complicated and Machiavelian either.

Give me an example?

[Zach H]

WoT is meant to be enjoyed as entertainment, for the fantastical adventures, and the bliss of losing oneself in another world.

I could buy that for the early books, perhaps, as I do think Jordan was relatively decent when he wasn't trying to do much more than lighthearted adventure.

Book five and on, though, seems like the adventure is ditched in favor of Jordan's brand of courtly intrigue, where tea time and wool-headed skirt enthusiasts take the place of orclocs. Entertaining? Mileages vary and all that, I suppose. I liked his scope and some broad points of the narrative he was working with, but on a line by level of focus the prose killed my interest in finding out whatever is going to happen to Rand and company.

[Galactus]

One could actually argue that Jordan's relatively low-level and straighforward politicking is more "realistic" than Martin's more byzantine plots. Most politics really isn't all that complex, and what complexity it has mainly deals with who dislikes whom and why :P

[David Selig]

All her early plans were Siuan's, who has been at it for a long long time. And exactly what was so simple about their plots?

Their main plan was "Let's trick the Hall in declaring a war to Elaida and hope that none of my opponents in the Hall would know what this means". It worked, but mostly because Egwene were so dumb they actually voted to declare a war without knowing what this means. It really felt like a cheap copout by Jordan to somehow expalins Egwene gaining the power.

This is basically how the whole Egwene's plotting and manipulating amongst the Aes Sedai went - she had some relatively good plans, but hardly masterful ones, which ended up working spectacularly well because her opponents behaved like idiots and 200 years old women were fooled by simple tricks time and time again.

As for Littlefinger, he'd have been eaten alive in WoT. He's good in his world because no one else understands the system as well, and because the law isn't as well developed a system as in WoT. If he had been Aes Sedai, the number of rather open transgressions he's committed would mean he'd be eaten for breakfast by almost any sister. The likes of Verin or Moiraine or Cadsuane would have finished him so fast, he would be a footnote in the story. All of his plots clearly rely on luck to succeed, and he's been incredibly lucky so far. Few WoT plots are built that way. They usually depend on the plotter having some information no one else does because they had better spies, more connections, etc., and that's how they succeed. Very realistic, and never over the top.

I disagree with pretty much everything. Littlefinger will outsmart any Aes Sedai with ease when it comes to intrigues. Cadsuane is just a bully with no subtlety, he'd trick her with ease.

Most of Egwene's plots relied heavily on luck. While she was prisoner at the tower, she could've been stilled or executed on a whim by Elaida at any given moment. Her plan for declaring war on Elaida required plenty of luck - first, that none of the Sitters against her will know details about the Law of War, and second that they will vote in favor of somethin they have no idea what really means and wouldn't get suspicious why Egwene is suggesting it.

[Shryke]

I disagree with pretty much everything. Littlefinger will outsmart any Aes Sedai with ease when it comes to intrigues.

Why? What examples support this?

I mean, you just keep throwing this out here as if it's a given.

One could actually argue that Jordan's relatively low-level and straighforward politicking is more "realistic" than Martin's more byzantine plots. Most politics really isn't all that complex, and what complexity it has mainly deals with who dislikes whom and why :P

Politics is surprisingly/horrifyingly petty and personal.

[Slurktan]

Why? What examples support this?

I mean, you just keep throwing this out here as if it's a given.

My guess is because he thinks tricking a lovestruck buffoon is smarter than tricking a few 200 year old idiots.

[Gertrude]

There's ton of fully realised characters in WOT. While there are alot of similarish attitudes among people (especially the women) and such, the main and secondary characters are all very distinct and well painted and have their own voices and everything.

I can differentiate between the characters easily, but it doesn't change the fact that I think they often fall a bit flat. I've mentioned this before, but I think that a major part of the problem is that the characters got stuck in limbo for so long doing the same thing that I got sick of them. Perrin being a good example. He was easily one of my favorites early on, got married and emo and made me hate him. We had books and books of him dealing with Faile's jealously and then the rescue. These things needed to happen, but also needed to wrap the fuck up a whole lot sooner. We have too much time with the characters in limbo where we see no growth and get hit over the head with their annoying traits. It's sad, and if it was condensed I'm sure I would feel differently about a lot of them.

[Humble Asskicker]

Your miles may vary, but here's an example of politics which I do not think was masterfully presented.

Egwene's tactic of solidifying her control as Amyrlin thus far involved a few things.

For one, taking Siuan as council and using her and Leane to maneuver the Aes Sedai. The Aes Sedai were apparently deceived into forgetting that Siuan was a master at politics by her youthful appearance and the stunting of her of ability with the One Power after being Healed. Furthermore, Siuan and Leane, by bitching and sniffing at each other in public, deepened the impression that not only were they at odds, but that they had become petty children easily discounted as threats. This is repeated over and over again (in fact, thirty percent of the narration post book 6 is dwelling on this interplay).

However (at odds with their easily dismissed status) if there is an issue they agree on, the other Aes Sedai consider it reliable enough to steer their agenda.

Egwene effects a mannerism of submissiveness, which leads the Aes Sedai to believe that she can be handled easily as well. She then covertly acts through blackmail by finding out damaging secrets of other Aes Sedai and coercing an Oath of fidelity from them. Then she uses some esoteric laws to enforce a fiat of cooperation among the other Aes Sedai. She does this by using the petty squabble between the two political powers of the rebel, Romanda and Leleane.

As a summary, this doesn't wow me, but it doesn't stretch credibility either. After the build-up of how impressively Machiavellian all the Aes Sedai are, something as simple as this is definitely a disappointment.

However, there are some elements that take it from a mere disappointment to an annoyance, and that lies in execution.

For one, the fake squabbling of Leane and Siuan is really silly to read about. They are supposed to behave childishly, but they go beyond even that. RJ can explain until he's red in the face (and he basically did) that youthful appearance is enough for arrogant Aes Sedai to forget that Siuan and Leane all but ruled the world for over a decade, and did so with extreme proficiency. But one can be arrogant without being fitting into an unsurpassed level of stupidity, which apparently nearly every single Aes Sedai fell into. Not a one of them considered that maybe there was some sort of subterfuge going on with between these powerhouse manipulators. Why? Because they look young and the Aes Sedai are so arrogant they are not accustomed to being outmaneuvered. You would think some of them, in their experience dealing with kings and queens of all lands for decades and decades, might have some idea that maybe, just maybe, something more was going on. But they don't. And they are lead by the nose with no problem at all. They completely fall for the ruse. I mean, the former leaders of the world are no longer political and focus all of their energy in behaving worse than petulant children and hundreds of politically brilliant Aes Sedai just take that as natural.

Secondly. By the time Egwene cleverly forces the Aes Sedai to actually march on the White Tower, you would think that perhaps some of them might realize that maybe there's something more than a young figurehead. Just maybe it might occur. But it doesn't. And Egwene smoothly keeps manipulating them from one thing to another, until finally she pulls some esoteric law out of her ass that gives her autocratic power (that no one but Siuan and one Aes Sedai remember - and that Aes Sedai conveniently holds her peace, being so out of countenance, until Egwene has her way). And no one tries to defy or amend the law, curiously enough, even though law and tradition have mostly been abrogated anyway (due to Elaida, as it's also often repeated).

But even that doesn't put the biggest bug up my ass. It's the way they handle it when they are shown up. When they learn about what the Law of War means, several Aes Sedai retch or faint. That aside, it's standard procedure for Egwene to deceive and defy the Aes Sedai in some cunning way, and then the Aes Sedai are stunned, with their eyes popping, their mouth moving wordlessly in shock (like some senile old person), or for them to crumple in astonishment. That is, if they are not clutching at their skirts in horror or nervously adjusting their shawls. It's almost a daily ritual, in fact. The Aes Sedai act condescendingly and with some fresh dose of flagrantly obvious idiocy, and Egwene shows them up so that they can react in some over-the-top comical fashion. And then they're back to dismissive condescension. Rinse and repeat.

It's exhausting and excessive. And RJ goes on and on about it, when he's not repeating himself about how the brilliant but incredibly fatuous Aes Sedai are overlooking the brilliant and know-it-all Egwene, who along with Siuan and Leane (the ones the brilliant Aes Sedai look down upon) are the only ones who know what they are about. Everyone else of these legendary Aes Sedai are a bunch of genius dumbasses that need to be led around by their noses (which is done with painful ease).

There's no tension, there's no intrigue. It's just dumb.

[Cantabile]

It's been a long, long time since I've read WoT, so I am hesitant to get into arguments about it since I won't be able to provide details and quotes to back up my view. However, when reading I often had the opinion that Jordan should have ignored the "show, don't tell," maxim for writers. When he attempts to "show" the reader some things, he ends up just butchering what he originally "told" the reader. In the first few books it's drilled into the reader that the Aes Sedai are Machiavellian, as you put it, brilliant, etc. Then when he attempted to show these things, to me the Aes Sedai came across as having the psychological and social cunning of elementary school kids wetting their diapers and picking their noises all day.

I still enjoyed the series tremendously, but I had to suspend my disbelief in the same way as when I watch Disney movies with my grandkids. WoT has provided innumerable readers pleasure, but I don't think we can count on it being used in any political science classes any time soon.

[Gertrude]

Thank you HA for reminding me of the Siuan/Leane interplay. That was a huge stretch and for it to work, RJ had to dumb down the Rebels. Pretty much agree with everything else you said too. Aes Sedai conveniently forget that Suian and Leanne were a team, they conveniently forget that Siuan and Moiraine were close friends. The politicking works only because the plot needs it to, not because it holds on it's own.

[fionwe1987]

Their main plan was "Let's trick the Hall in declaring a war to Elaida and hope that none of my opponents in the Hall would know what this means". It worked, but mostly because Egwene were so dumb they actually voted to declare a war without knowing what this means. It really felt like a cheap copout by Jordan to somehow expalins Egwene gaining the power.

This is basically how the whole Egwene's plotting and manipulating amongst the Aes Sedai went - she had some relatively good plans, but hardly masterful ones, which ended up working spectacularly well because her opponents behaved like idiots and 200 years old women were fooled by simple tricks time and time again.

Your miles may vary, but here's an example of politics which I do not think was masterfully presented.

Egwene's tactic of solidifying her control as Amyrlin thus far involved a few things.

I think the issue is less with Jordan and more that both of you seemed to have missed a ton of subtleties.

Egwene's plan did not rely on the Sitters not knowing the details of the law of war. That was part of it, but an insignificant detail, because if they'd gone about tabling this proposition to declare war on Elaida the normal way, Egwene would have had to make suggestions about this to some Sitters, they would have discussed it with others, and the vote itself would have happened days later. If that happened, almost certainly, someone would have gone to a knowledgeable Brown and gotten the details of the Law before deciding to vote for it. Lelaine points this out explicitly, so I don't even know how you missed this.

What Siuan's plan rested on was grandstanding. First off, Leleaine and Romanda were both brought to believe that they would be given charge of the negotiations when they met the Andoran Nobles. Both firmly believed the chief competitor would be the other, which makes complete sense, since they were the senior-most Sitters with a clique of Sitters (unknown to them, these women are the agents of the Ajah Heads in the Tower, and only care to weaken the Rebellion by playing on the rivalry of these women).

That done, Siuan then relies on her eyes and ears which have made it clear the Andorans have no intention of letting the Aes Sedai through. Egwene sends a few Sitters sworn to her to their camp to arrange for the meeting in secret, which, of course, makes Lelaine and Romanda very sure that Sheriam is behind the plotting, since it is her friends that were sent to the Andoran camp.

Meanwhile, Gareth Bryne's soldiers are to "accidentally" reveal the whole thing, making Lelaine and Romanda rush to seize the tiller (no doubt driven by the Loyalist Sitters, who would want to exploit this to keep the Rebels from marching forward).

All that set, Egwene goes ahead and lets neither Lelaine nor Romanda negotiate. Both had wanted to take it slow and not rush to Tar Valon for a siege (no doubt with a lot of support and prompting from their "followers" who wanted to avoid war at all costs). Yet, here was Egwene, deciding to Travel there directly, to appease the Andoran nobles.

That last is crucial. The Nobles were allowed to make their threats. They very clearly ignore Egwene as Amyrlin, and certainly don't show acceptance of the fact that the Hall of the Tower faces them. It looked like Egwene "caved", and almost certainly did so on Sheriam's prompting:

Siuan was staring straight ahead and gripping her skirts as if to keep herself looking forward by main force. At least she had known what was coming. Sheriam, who had not, eyed the Andorans and Murandians regally, calmly, as though she had expected every word.

The point of the whole rigmarole was to make it abundantly clear that no one respects the Rebel Hall, no one respects their Amyrlin Seat.

Egwene then speaks, pointing out how everyone thinks they may just be a ploy of Elaida's to control Rand, and they will have no legitimacy until they declare war on Elaida. While Lelaine and Romanda still resisted this line of reasoning, the younger Sitters did not, since this was the first time they had been Sitters in front of a crowd, and they were pissed they'd been shown no respect. And so they vote for the War, without thinking of the consequences, without bothering to check what it is.

And Takima? Remember that she is one of the agents from the Tower. She knows she herself, and the other five Loyal sitters wouldn't stand for it. They had worked on Romanda and Lelaine to ensure that both of them would only consider this an opportunity to get power for themselves, and that meant Lelaine's pet Blue Sitter Lurelle wouldn't stand for it as well. Only ten would stand, as Takima could see it, so the vote would be defeated anyway. Instead, the Black Ajah intervened. Moria made Lelaine support the vote, because Aran'gar was obviously bolstering Egwene's support in the Hall, and declaring war on Elaida certainly made sense, from their viewpoint.

This is far from a simple political situation, and the plot was far from simple. Certainly, it wasn't just luck that let Egwene win. The Black Ajah did too, as did Siuan's careful planning.

And HA:

The only person who vomits is Delana, and I think the reason she was so scared is extremely obvious. She'd just stood for something that meant complete freedom for Egwene from Sheriam, which meant Aran'gar had less control over Egwene. This is why she puked, and why Sheriam was beaten.

I disagree with pretty much everything. Littlefinger will outsmart any Aes Sedai with ease when it comes to intrigues. Cadsuane is just a bully with no subtlety, he'd trick her with ease.

Why is this? Which plot of his displays the kind of planning and psychological game-play that Siuan's plot to get the Law of War passed displays? She, or Moiraine, or Cadsuane, would easily eat Littlefinger alive. He'd be clueless. He works based on tricking people into trusting him. None of these women trust anybody. Certainly not the smooth oily variety of person like LF.

Most of Egwene's plots relied heavily on luck. While she was prisoner at the tower, she could've been stilled or executed on a whim by Elaida at any given moment. Her plan for declaring war on Elaida required plenty of luck - first, that none of the Sitters against her will know details about the Law of War, and second that they will vote in favor of somethin they have no idea what really means and wouldn't get suspicious why Egwene is suggesting it.

Umm... if it looked like Elaida was going to have her stilled, Egwene would have ordered a rescue via traveling, remember?

And LF's plot are nothing but luck. There's almost no plan he came up with that didn't totally depend on it.

[fionwe1987]

Thank you HA for reminding me of the Siuan/Leane interplay. That was a huge stretch and for it to work, RJ had to dumb down the Rebels. Pretty much agree with everything else you said too. Aes Sedai conveniently forget that Suian and Leanne were a team, they conveniently forget that Siuan and Moiraine were close friends. The politicking works only because the plot needs it to, not because it holds on it's own.

There's nothing convinient about it. Many Aes Sedai blamed Siuan for the Tower split. Leanne acted as if she did too. And it made sense, since Leanne was actually not involved in Siuan's plans with Rand, and she could easily act pissed that she had gotten stilled for something she didn't do. So, given that many people agree with "Leanne's view" of Siuan's actions, it was easy for them to feign dissafection. After all, to any Aes Sedai, being stilled is a life changing experience little sort fo death.

[Shryke]

The Aes Sedai also didn't want to think to much about Siuan or Leanne. It's the same way people treat people with horrible deformities or the like. They try to avoid contact and not think about them too much. The Aes Sedai are only to happy to accept Siuan and Leanne at face value because they just don't want to think about them and their situation too hard.

And the plan did rely on the Sitters not knowing the full extent of the Law of War. The whole point was to get them worked up enough to vote on it without stopping for too much study. Make them react in the heat of the moment.

And even then, it only succeeds because of the various other schemes going on all weaving together to produce an outcome none of the individual schemers expected. (This being a major theme of WOT)

The only person who vomits is Delana, and I think the reason she was so scared is extremely obvious. She'd just stood for something that meant complete freedom for Egwene from Sheriam, which meant Aran'gar had less control over Egwene. This is why she puked, and why Sheriam was beaten.

Yup. She sicks up because she didn't know shit about this law (the Tower hasn't declared war on anyone in centuries and few know the law exists) and now realises she's about to get tortured for fucking up. Aran'gar, the person behind her, knows even less about Tower Law and probably cares about it even less then that.

I disagree with pretty much everything. Littlefinger will outsmart any Aes Sedai with ease when it comes to intrigues. Cadsuane is just a bully with no subtlety, he'd trick her with ease.

Cadsuane is a bully when it suits her. Especially with Rand because she is, very deliberately, trying to push his buttons. She's quite good at it. That doesn't mean she can't be subtle when she wants to.

And again, how would Littlefinger outsmart all these Aes Sedai again? It's a fucking meme at this point that no one seems to want to actually prove.

[Humble Asskicker]

I think the issue is less with Jordan and more that both of you seemed to have missed a ton of subtleties....

These aren't subtleties. These are clearly spelled out. It's hard to miss them when Egwene's sequence is pretty much a hundred pages or so passage explaining in detail what you just went over.

And neither does it account for my objections.

The only person who vomits is Delana, and I think the reason she was so scared is extremely obvious. She'd just stood for something that meant complete freedom for Egwene from Sheriam, which meant Aran'gar had less control over Egwene. This is why she puked, and why Sheriam was beaten.

I said retch. Delana vomits and other Aes Sedai retch, or look like they're about to. Delana's puking is understandable (to some extent, and being gracious about it). The rest of the Aes Sedai's reactions are not.

[wolverine]

It seems like we are mainly just told that Littlefinger is a political genius in the books, not shown. If Littlefinger is hand he finds the money, how, who knows. I agree with the earlier posts that the plots he has hatched so far required a fool to trust the sleaziest guy in Westeros.

[wolverine]

Even if some of the political plots are executed better than I can remember the biggest thing to me is that Egwenne constantly outsmarts everyone. She knows exactly what to say and do at every moment. At some point this becomes a little unbelievable.

Also it is as if Elaida intentionally fritters away her support.

[Gertrude]

While all of these currents are happening under the surface, it was executed poorly. Having it laid out before me I can see your point that there were a lot of moving parts behind the face of it that I didn't remember. I still can't bring myself to care or find it particularly engaging. It was somewhat painful to read because all of the actors were made to play dumb at some point and Siuan/Egwene had to have perfect reads on the other Sedai for this to actually work. Siuan and Leanne completely overacted in their little tiff, and the Rebel Sedai were overly oblivious to them. Not one single Aes Sedai, not one single White was able to overlook the surface gloss and begin to wonder? You can't sell me on that. You can blame it on their uncomfortableness with the stilled women, but seriously, they just acted stupidly.

The manoeuvrings in the Little Tower bored me to tears.I also want to add my support to Wolverine's comment. Elaida was written as being so incompetent that it doesn't even resemble the earlier Elaida who at least seemed competent if misguided. I know, she had some hard set-backs, but really. She became a caricature.