Towers of Midnight

[Lightning Lord]

All of those before he starts really going nuts, though, except for the interlude in TDR when he was for the most part completely isolated from them. Elayne and Aviendha are, as I said, his lovers, but the rest? Egwene planned to tell him about Salidar before he terrified her enough to clam up. Moiraine and Lan he hasn't seen since TFOH, Thom since TSR. The Aiel, you'll note, he's treated like crap (intermittently; sometimes he's been polite, and there's no good guide to when he'll be which) for books now.

I disagree that he's treated the Aiel like crap. He's overridden some of their traditions of course, but they still follow him. They point out he is not a king, just an elevated chief. They could leave (noted that some of them did). But overall, he respects the chiefs, enough that some of them consider him a friend. His particular fixation with the Maidens and dying, I think we can agree that that had nothing to do with his arrogance or intent to insult, just his cultural handcuffing.

Cadsuane shows up in book 7, intent on bullying Rand. All of my examples were the same ones she would have seen. Elayne wasn't his lover yet. I am not positive about the timing, but Min might not have been either. After Dumai's Wells and her arrival, he begins to lose his grip. I guess being tortured wasn't good for his psyche? Anyway, Cadsuane shows up right after he gets back to Cairhien. And promptly acts insultingly. She doesn't have his crazy-madness-induced incivility and coldness to reason away her actions. We have those here, 5 books later.

He's arrogant. Yup. But he's not some raving bully until after Cadsuane shows up and begins her regimen of needling him.

[Shryke]

Really? You do realise Sorelia allies with Cadsuane specifically because the Aiel feel that Rand doesn't give a shit about them and just uses them as a weapon.

Also, Cadsuane, as I remember, didn't know WTF had happened at Dumai's Well till after she met Rand. Most people didn't. And Rand had already started being kinda crazy and having a nasty temper before that.

[fionwe1987]

Really? You do realise Sorelia allies with Cadsuane specifically because the Aiel feel that Rand doesn't give a shit about them and just uses them as a weapon.

Also, Cadsuane, as I remember, didn't know WTF had happened at Dumai's Well till after she met Rand. Most people didn't. And Rand had already started being kinda crazy and having a nasty temper before that.

Yup. People blaming Cadsuane for Rand's craziness really need a re-read. She met him twice in book 7, and once in 8. She became his adviser only in book 9. Rand became increasingly impossible to deal with way before that.

The Aiel were melting away, and what he has are around because of the Wise Ones and the Chiefs, and Rand never helped them with it. He just assumed they're always going to be there for him to order around, and that's why Sorilea allied with Cadsuane. And, of course, everyone else was following Rand only because he had the Aiel. I'd have liked to see how much support he'd have had had they deserted him. Close to nothing is my guess.

[Poobah]

Also, Cadsuane, as I remember, didn't know WTF had happened at Dumai's Well till after she met Rand. Most people didn't. And Rand had already started being kinda crazy and having a nasty temper before that.

Min tells Cadsuane what happened to him after that scene where the bubble of evil / possibly fain-induced fog attacks those rebel noblemen and he'd had a sword-duel with one of them. He's all passed out after getting slashed by Fain at that point. The scene stuck in my mind because I remember Cads being rather shocked and momentarily tender.

[kuenjato]

I can't believe this conversation regarding what essentially amounts to a facile and painfully obvious attempt on RJ's part to reproduce the role of Moraine ("oooh look! another most-powerful-ever pops up 4,000 pages in!") so he could reiterate his so-tired gender themes.

Cad felt contrived when she sniffed herself onto the stage in the mid 90's.

[Lightning Lord]

Really? You do realise Sorelia allies with Cadsuane specifically because the Aiel feel that Rand doesn't give a shit about them and just uses them as a weapon.

Also, Cadsuane, as I remember, didn't know WTF had happened at Dumai's Well till after she met Rand. Most people didn't. And Rand had already started being kinda crazy and having a nasty temper before that.

They're a people of warriors. Rand uses them as warriors. That's not disrespectful. The chiefs don't take issue with it. Rand isn't throwing their lives away for no reason or deliberately insulting them. He respects as many of their customs as he can (allows the fifth, but not in Caemlyn). Sits on the floor with the men.

What does her knowledge of Dumai's Wells have to do with it? She's abbrasive from her first contact with him. My point is that to that point in the story, Rand hasn't been bullying everyone, shoving everyone around, ignoring everyone. He's taken advice and worked with people. He's certainly arrogantly imposed his will in Cairhien and Tear (and with the Aiel to a lesser extent), but that is his character righting perceived wrongs (nobles killing commoners, taxing them to all hell, etc). And I'll grant that he had a temper at times, but not often. Certainly not enough to warrant "crazy."

[Old Nan]

The Aiel chiefs do take issue with it. They don't say so openly, but there's enough descriptions of their faces hardening and such that you can tell they feel profoundly insulted by his dictatorial style.

[Lightning Lord]

The Aiel chiefs do take issue with it. They don't say so openly, but there's enough descriptions of their faces hardening and such that you can tell they feel profoundly insulted by his dictatorial style.

"Profoundly insulted"? Seriously? They tell him to his face that they don't like some of his decisions, they tell him straight out that they don't like not getting the fifth, that they don't like fighting with Cairhienin, that he is not a king, merely first among equals. They tell him that. They even try to explain why their ways are different.

If they were profoundly insulted, they would take their clans and leave. They're unhappy and give voice to that displeasure, not the same thing at all.

ETA:

I can't believe this conversation regarding what essentially amounts to a facile and painfully obvious attempt on RJ's part to reproduce the role of Moraine ("oooh look! another most-powerful-ever pops up 4,000 pages in!") so he could reiterate his so-tired gender themes.

It keeps going because, as they'd tell you, I'm a hater.

[Old Nan]

"Profoundly insulted"? Seriously? They tell him to his face that they don't like some of his decisions, they tell him straight out that they don't like not getting the fifth, that they don't like fighting with Cairhienin, that he is not a king, merely first among equals. They tell him that. They even try to explain why their ways are different.

They do all those things in TSR, TFOH, the beginning of LOC, i.e. while Rand is still relatively sane and not focused on 'hardening' himself into the world's biggest asshole.

Here's a sample from a more recent conversation:

Rhuarc accepted a cup of tea from Aviendha—so she was still considered an apprentice—and turned to Rand. The clan chief did not drink. "We have had very little time, Rand al'Thor." "I don't look for excuses, Rhuarc," Rand said. "Only results."

This brought flashes of anger to the faces of several of the other Aiel, and the Maidens at the doorway exchanged a furious burst of hand signals. Rhuarc himself displayed no anger, though Nynaeve did think his hand tightened on his cup. "I have shared water with you, Rand al'Thor," he said. "I would not think that you would bring me here to offer insults."

"No insults, Rhuarc," Rand said. "Just truths. We don't have time to waste."

"No time, Rand al'Thor?" Bael said. The clan chief of the Goshien Aiel was a very tall man, and he seemed to tower, even when sitting down. "You left many of us in Andor for months with nothing to do but polish spears and scare wetlanders! Now you send us to this land with impossible orders, then follow a few weeks later and demand results?"

"You were in Andor to help Elayne," Rand said.

"She did not want or need help," Bael said with a snort. "And she was right to refuse aid. I'd rather run across the entire Waste with a single skin of water than have leadership of my clan handed to me by another." Rand's expression grew dark again, his eyes stormy, and Nynaeve was again reminded of the tempest brewing to the north.

"This land is broken, Rand al'Thor," Rhuarc said, his voice calmer than Bael's. "It is not making excuses to explain that fact, and it is not cowardice to be cautious about a difficult task."

"We must have peace here," Rand growled. "If you can't manage—"

[Lightning Lord]

Why are you quoting tGS? This discussion pertains to Rand prior to, during and just after meeting Cadsuane.

[Old Nan]

When was that restriction imposed? In any case, Rand doesn't meet with Rhuarc from before he meets Cadsuane until TGS. Bruan, Dhearic, Timolan, Erim, Jheran, and Han got left hanging in LOC. Indirian, Janwin, Mandelain are present in the chapter Cadsuane is introduced, when he tries to convince them he isn't an Aes Sedai pawn, and disappear thereafter. Bael has some brief interludes with Melaine and Davram Bashere. All of Rand's interaction with the Aiel in the period around Cadsuane's introduction is with the Maidens (periodically explosive) or the Wise Ones (led by Sorilea, who allies with Cadsuane because he's a dangerous madman).

[fionwe1987]

It amuses me that in the first meeting between Rand and Cadsuane, everyone falls over themselves pointing out how rude she was, and fail to notice that Rand started the conversation by being rude, and continued so throughout.

[Lightning Lord]

When was that restriction imposed? In any case, Rand doesn't meet with Rhuarc from before he meets Cadsuane until TGS. Bruan, Dhearic, Timolan, Erim, Jheran, and Han got left hanging in LOC. Indirian, Janwin, Mandelain are present in the chapter Cadsuane is introduced, when he tries to convince them he isn't an Aes Sedai pawn, and disappear thereafter. Bael has some brief interludes with Melaine and Davram Bashere. All of Rand's interaction with the Aiel in the period around Cadsuane's introduction is with the Maidens (periodically explosive) or the Wise Ones (led by Sorilea, who allies with Cadsuane because he's a dangerous madman).

I guess there is no restriction. But since all I've been putting forth has to do with pre-Cadsuane Rand, you're talking to yourself.

They do all those things in TSR, TFOH, the beginning of LOC, i.e. while Rand is still relatively sane and not focused on 'hardening' himself into the world's biggest asshole.

Rand went from relatively sane to dangerous madman in what, half a book by your calculation?

[Old Nan]

LOC was when he started talking back to 'Lews Therin' and muttering to himself; even Mazrim Taim tells him that he needs to get a grip. And the interlude with Galine and Katerine in the box did have a teensy effect on his sanity, yes?

[Lightning Lord]

LOC was when he started talking back to 'Lews Therin' and muttering to himself; even Mazrim Taim tells him that he needs to get a grip. And the interlude with Galine and Katerine in the box did have a teensy effect on his sanity, yes?

Right, so you're saying that Rand completely broke apart in half a book. I think it was a lo longer than that. There's a pretty solid progression between CoS and tGS.

Yes, obviously I agree with his captivity and torture affecting his sanity. Which is why I already mentioned it:

After Dumai's Wells and her arrival, he begins to lose his grip. I guess being tortured wasn't good for his psyche?

If you're not going to read my posts, please stop responding to them.

[Old Nan]

I think he was teetering on the edge throughout LOC–during which time his POV was not Aiel-heavy–until the kidnapping, at which point he dove determinedly right off the cliff. After that, well, 18 days after Dumai's Wells Sorilea was desperate enough to ally with Cadsuane.

[Lightning Lord]

I think he was teetering on the edge throughout LOC–during which time his POV was not Aiel-heavy–until the kidnapping, at which point he dove determinedly right off the cliff. After that, well, 18 days after Dumai's Wells Sorilea was desperate enough to ally with Cadsuane.

I disagree that Sorilea allies with Cadsuane because he's an absolute raving nutter. She's concerned, not panic-stricken. But at this point, we're arguing semantics and strict timing, which I am unable to do. I don't have an encyclopedic knowledge and no ability to reference the books. My point earlier was that Cadsuane had no reason to think Rand was dangerously crazy.

[Old Nan]

No, at the point they met, she didn't. Although she did have suspicions, likely founded in her history with men who could channel, and blanket hostility like "What do you want? Answer, or leave. By the door or a window; your choice." to match her own rudeness wasn't helping. But his deflection of the question about voices pretty much confirmed for her that he's kinda crazy; the knowledge that he was dangerous came shortly later.

"Now you know," she said at last, calm as ever, "that I know your future, and your present. The Light's mercy fades to nothing for a man who can channel. Some see that and believe the Light denies those men. I do not. Have you begun to hear voices, yet?" "What do you mean?" he asked slowly. He could feel Lews Therin listening.

The tingle returned to his skin, and he very nearly channeled, but all that happened was that the teapot rose and floated to Cadsuane, turning slowly in the air for her to examine. "Some men who can channel begin to hear voices." She spoke almost absently, frowning at the flattened sphere of silver and gold. "It is a part of the madness. Voices conversing with them, telling them what to do." The teapot drifted gently to the floor by her feet. "Have you heard any?"

Startlingly, Dashiva gave a raucous laugh, shoulders shaking. Narishma wet his lips; he might not have been afraid of the woman before, but now he watched her closely as a scorpion.

"I will ask the questions," Rand said firmly. "You seem to forget. I am the Dragon Reborn." You are real, aren't you? he wondered. There was no answer. Lews Therin? Sometimes the man did not answer, but Aes Sedai always drew him. Lews Therin? He was not mad; the voice was real, not imagination. Not madness. A sudden desire to laugh did not help.

As for encyclopedic knowledge, I don't have it either. But these are somewhat helpful when I get into debates with fans:

http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/

Timeline

[David Selig]

It amuses me that in the first meeting between Rand and Cadsuane, everyone falls over themselves pointing out how rude she was, and fail to notice that Rand started the conversation by being rude, and continued so throughout.

Of course, you conveniently don't mention that Rand had a very good reason for being rude - Cadsuane barged in without asking permission and blatantly breached protocol by ignoring Rand at first and going over to check on the Asha'man. If someone comes in my house without permission and ignores me at first I'd be rude too and for good reason. But of course, it can't be the woman's fault, no way...

Also, Cadsuane, as I remember, didn't know WTF had happened at Dumai's Well till after she met Rand. Most people didn't. And Rand had already started being kinda crazy and having a nasty temper before that.

Another point against her. She could've talked first with one of the many Aes Sedai who were around Rand at that time, check what the situation is, especially regarding his attitude towards Aes Sedai (she did exactly that right after the first meeting). But no, she decided to go into the first meeting without preparing this way, why bother, she's the legendary Cadsuane and can bully anyone...

[Old Nan]

It's both their faults. She started it, he ended it. It was a gambit to gain his interest rather than his trust, and it gained his interest at the expense of his trust. Her further machinations balanced that out a bit, but revealed just how limited she is in many ways. How limited he is we've learned from many different angles.

I don't know. I don't really like reading about Cadsuane, but neither do I like reading about Rand.