Towers of Midnight

[Lightning Lord]

The theory would be that she would have visited the Eelfinn before. In any case, there is something suspicious about the silver belt and crescent hairpiece she's invariably described as wearing. In WOT, if a character is always wearing the same clothes, there's bound to be a reason.

As for your second objection, Semirhage recognized the ter'angreal Cadsuane wore, which is actually somewhat more advanced in that it has inbuilt weave-nullifying defensive capabilities, as does Nynaeve's.

I don't remember those ter'angreal descriptions. Mat's was supposedly a really special ter'angreal, it's just more common to have saidin-specific. Did these require channeling? I remember Cadsuane having one that detected direction of men's channeling, not one that was defensive in nature. And I don't remember anything protecting someone from lightning.

edit: misspelling

[Shryke]

Sorry to follow up on my own post like this, but about Cadsuane. I read the Jordan and Sanderson quotes and it's an interesting thing. I see where Jordan's coming from and I see some evidence of what he says he's trying to do with the character. He says, more or less, that she's one of those hardass parental figures that you nevertheless really want to please because their respect is worth more for being hard to earn, and they'll treat you like an adult if you win it. Most of us have known people like this, and often they do come across as jerks at first (or forever if you're not favorably disposed toward the person. They're polarizing types). But they're actually good for you and you wind up loving them.

While I see the seeds of this in Cadsuane, though, that's really not how her characterization came across to me--nor to most people it seems, including Sanderson. It's interesting to think about why. When I think about Cadsuane's behavior toward Rand, there's one scene that stands out for me; they're in a roomful of people, his temper is short, and when he yells at people she's like, "One." "Two." "Three." And then she spanks him with Air or something, in front of the roomful of people. Which.... totally inappropriate. This is not how you treat an adult protegee. Hell, for a lot of people it's not how you treat a kid, but with an adult you'd castigate them in private, or at most say "Rand!" and glare at them.

At any rate, it's interesting that Jordan writes about behavior that he evidently finds endearing, but that comes across as totally inappropriate and childish to most of the readers. Perhaps it's partially because he was significantly older than the vast majority of the readership? Maybe he identified more with the elderly Cadsuane, while the rest of us identified more readily with the 20-something Rand, especially since so many of us started the series as teenagers. And so we missed whatever he found amusing about the situation.

Alternatively, can anybody on here tell me whether Cadsuane's style of public rebuke would be considered acceptable in the military? That's the only place I can think of where Jordan might have picked it up--in which case, maybe he's analogizing Cadsuane to Rand's lieutenant or something, where we're seeing an elderly woman who appears several books in and certainly isn't part of any hierarchy that Rand signed up for.

Ultimately I think it's hard not to sympathize with Rand in this (although I maybe sympathize with him more than a lot of people?): he's going through a lot of shit, and then she shows up and follows him around acting like a jerk. Sure, she means well, but it's like when you're putting on a brave face about something and somebody thinks you're being too flippant and proceeds to yell at you about how dangerous/important/etc. this is, when that's the last thing you need. I have no doubt that, given that RJ is the master of the WoT universe, Cadsuane's "tutelage" will wind up being helpful to Rand in the end, but I have a hard time swallowing that; it seems to me that she doesn't understand what he needs and that to the extent that she does, she's going about helping in the wrong way.

See, I think the problem is you can't see this from anyone but Rand's perspective.

He's being a childish bully. He's just loosing his temper and yelling at people, trying to cow them into submission.

Cadsuane, since the very start, has always taken the approach of treating him like a child when he acts like one. If he yells and throws a temper tantrum, she swats him and calmly tells him to behave. When he acts like an adult, and asks politely for her advice or treats other people with respect and politeness, she treats him like an adult.

She doesn't act like a jerk (not most of the time anyway). She acts like she expects to be treated with some basic amount of respect by him. What are these onerous conditions she places on him? To be polite, to be civil, to not lose his temper, to not yell. These aren't crazy impositions, but basic things parents teach their children to do when interacting with other people.

Now there's obviously extra complexities at work here. Rand has some justifiable annoyance at people trying to dither and play for top spot while the world is coming to an end. And Cadsuane can definitely be over-bearing and thinks she always knows best.

But even with all this, Cadsuane is not wrong. Rand can't brow-beat the entire world into doing what he wants. That's .... that's what Nynaeve would do. The really annoying Nynaeve. It's the exact same kind of behavior.

Rand needs to treat other people with respect, he needs to negotiate with them, cooperate with them, earn their trust and their cooperation. He needs their help to save the world. And instead, he's been acting like a child, throwing temper-tantrums when he can't get his way right away.

[Old Nan]

I don't remember those ter'angreal descriptions. Mat's was supposedly a really special ter'angreal, it's just more common to have saidin-specific. Did these require channeling? I remember Cadsuane having one that detected direction of men's channeling, not one that was defensive in nature. And I don't remember anything protecting someone from lightning.

edit: misspelling

I did not give the proper answer. Here are descriptions of Cadsuane's and Nynaeve's ter'angreal set. Cadsuane's can nullify weaves to some extent; Nynaeve's cannot. Both can detect saidin; Nynaeve's can provide more specific information. It's not unthinkable that better designs exist, or that Lanfear would know how to use one better; neither Cadsuane nor Nynaeve can make full use of theirs.

There are no devices that specifically protect against lightning, but shielding against it is a common feature of almost all OP battles so far.

[Lightning Lord]

I did not give the proper answer. Here are descriptions of Cadsuane's and Nynaeve's ter'angreal set. Cadsuane's can nullify weaves to some extent; Nynaeve's cannot. Both can detect saidin; Nynaeve's can provide more specific information. It's not unthinkable that better designs exist, or that Lanfear would know how to use one better; neither Cadsuane nor Nynaeve can make full use of theirs.

There are no devices that specifically protect against lightning, but shielding against it is a common feature of almost all OP battles so far.

I know the shielding is common, but these weaves were cut. Rand feels them rebound back into him. None of those descriptions indicate actions that would cut weaves.

Again, it's possible, just a terribly convenient possibility.

[Shryke]

I don't know if Lanfear carrying around that kind of Ter'Angreal set makes sense though. The text, especially stuff around the Cleansing, seems to imply that the Forsaken have never seen Ter'Angreal like that before and somewhere else it says they were developed after the Dark One was sealed away, during the Breaking, as a way to combat all the insane rogue channelers running around.

Lanfear might have something of a more primitive sort, but I think it's more just experience. She's probably fought more men wielding the Power then every Aes Sedai of the last like 2000 years combined.

[Lightning Lord]

I don't know if Lanfear carrying around that kind of Ter'Angreal set makes sense though. The text, especially stuff around the Cleansing, seems to imply that the Forsaken have never seen Ter'Angreal like that before and somewhere else it says they were developed after the Dark One was sealed away, during the Breaking, as a way to combat all the insane rogue channelers running around.

Lanfear might have something of a more primitive sort, but I think it's more just experience. She's probably fought more men wielding the Power then every Aes Sedai of the last like 2000 years combined.

Ah, so we have a Bloodsport kind of thing: even though she's blind, she can still fight off Chong Li.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Old Nan,

That was one of the best parts of the series!

I stopped reading LOC due to the circus. I've skipped ahead to TGS (after reading detailed wiki summaries) and I don't feel like I've missed anything. I also thought BS did a wonderful job with the Egewen/Verrin scene.

[Terez]

The circus wasn't in LOC?

[Old Nan]

The circus was in TFOH, and it was funny as hell.

[Terez]

It was also, of course, in books 9-11, which was even better because it had Mat.

As for 'funny as hell'...you guys should check out FelixPax's theories on Valan Luca. He thinks that Luca is a Hero of the Horn. One of his primary proofs for this is that Luca wears a cape. He is also convinced that Luca will be the third man for Ghenjei, rather than Farstrider, and that Cyndane is not Lanfear, so Mat will have to rescue Lanfear from the 'Finns.

[Poobah]

Surely the cape is conclusive proof that Valen Luca is Demandred.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Terez,

The circus wasn't in LOC?

I thought it spread into LOC as well. I've read a third of LOC and never gotten further. The last full RJ book I read was TFOH which had significant slow spots not infrequently centered on the "circus".

[macaroni]

Can I just say I love the wheel of time?

[Humble Asskicker]

Cadsuane, since the very start, has always taken the approach of treating him like a child when he acts like one. If he yells and throws a temper tantrum, she swats him and calmly tells him to behave. When he acts like an adult, and asks politely for her advice or treats other people with respect and politeness, she treats him like an adult.

She's that way to the Sea Folk, she's that way to uppity Aes Sedai, she's that way to Asha'man, she's that way to nobles. Anyone that Cadsuane perceives as not giving the proper respect to her (which is just about everyone but Sorilea) gets bullied around. Like...Nynaeve. Except instead of tugging at her braid it's spanking threats or veiled blackmail, or just trampling over objections with the use of her legendary reputation, which pretty much grants her license to do whatever she wants among Aes Sedai.

Rand can't brow-beat the entire world into doing what he wants. That's .... that's what Nynaeve would do. The really annoying Nynaeve. It's the exact same kind of behavior.

He doesn't really get to that point until book 12. He often tries to compromise and work around other people's reservation and such. He browbeats Aes Sedai, certainly, after the shit they pulled. He browbeats nobles under his thumb, because they try to squirm away from doing what isn't explicitly in their self-interest when Rand is not looking over their shoulder.

But everyone else he tries to work with.

Compromises Rand makes: Getting Darlin (who had a history of openly defying him) to be his Steward; doling out Asha'man to be bonded to the Aes Sedai after finding out about the Asha'man bonding Aes Sedai; letting the Aes Sedai go off on diplomat duty after Alanna lectured him about their importance; sitting on his hands after Elayne rejects his support of Caemlyn in a very dramatic fashion, despite this greatly upsetting Rand. There are many other examples. These ones are just off the top of my head. Rand is not some blundering politician who shouts at everyone until they do what he says. Not until book 12, at least.

[Slick Mongoose]

It's interesting how people blame everything they don't like from TGS on Sanderson. Large chunks of all three books were written by Jordan, less so in ToM but there will still be some. And what Jordan wrote will be the more important scenes.

[pat5150]

It's interesting how people blame everything they don't like from TGS on Sanderson. Large chunks of all three books were written by Jordan, less so in ToM but there will still be some. And what Jordan wrote will be the more important scenes.

As far as I know, RJ wrote most of the prologue of TGS, the final scene of AMoL, and a few unfinished scenes here and there. Everything else is based on the author's notes...

Patrick

[macaroni]

I disagree, Sanderson mentions that most of the Mat chapters in ToM were already written (when talking to your good self)

http://fantasyhotlist.blogspot.com/2010/05/new-brandon-sanderson-interview.html the last question on the page.

[Humble Asskicker]

It's interesting how people blame everything they don't like from TGS on Sanderson. Large chunks of all three books were written by Jordan, less so in ToM but there will still be some. And what Jordan wrote will be the more important scenes.

Well, they credit RJ for the good, and blame Sanderson for the bad. TGS was so good because RJ wrote notes so that any idiot could pump out a few words and make it worth reading. But when scenes fail - like the Semi spanking - the idea was sound but Sanderson wasn't up to writing it. People try to have their cake and eat it too.

Of course, I'm guilty of the same. I blame the failure of Semi's spanking on RJ, because I think it was a horrible idea, and no one could write it to be worth reading. RJ wouldn't have made it any better, because I've seen how he handled Egwene's spanking scenes, and compare it with Sanderson, they're both lame because it's a silly idea that's not dramatic - it's eye-rolling. If RJ couldn't pull off something that was moderately silly like Egwene's spanking, no way could he have managed to write something as far out retarded as Semi's spanking and make it seem good.

As far as I know, RJ wrote most of the prologue of TGS, the final scene of AMoL, and a few unfinished scenes here and there. Everything else is based on the author's notes...

I'm pretty sure he wrote the Verin sequence. Also, Sanderson mentioned that RJ did most of the Mat sequences in ToM.

[David Selig]

He doesn't really get to that point until book 12. He often tries to compromise and work around other people's reservation and such. He browbeats Aes Sedai, certainly, after the shit they pulled. He browbeats nobles under his thumb, because they try to squirm away from doing what isn't explicitly in their self-interest when Rand is not looking over their shoulder.

But everyone else he tries to work with.

Compromises Rand makes: Getting Darlin (who had a history of openly defying him) to be his Steward; doling out Asha'man to be bonded to the Aes Sedai after finding out about the Asha'man bonding Aes Sedai; letting the Aes Sedai go off on diplomat duty after Alanna lectured him about their importance; sitting on his hands after Elayne rejects his support of Caemlyn in a very dramatic fashion, despite this greatly upsetting Rand. There are many other examples. These ones are just off the top of my head. Rand is not some blundering politician who shouts at everyone until they do what he says. Not until book 12, at least.

Yeah. In fact Rand, for all his successes and power remains much less arrogant and much more willing to listen to reason than the average Aes Sedai who had achieved nothing major in her life, which pretty much says is all about how flawed the Aes Sedai mentality and indoctrination is. Sure, he has his moments of pride and arrogance, but it's not the systematic mental condition the Aes Sedai seem to have (with few exceptions).

Treating him like a child is just stupid. Sure, Cadsuane was right to stand up to him, but she went far overboard with this. Slapping him, humiliating him in public repeatedly, calling him a boy, etc - unnecessary, risky and counter productive. When you are treated like a child (which Cadsuane did right from the start), the natural reaction is to respond childishly too. Cadsuane knew Rand is close to the edge, yet kept pushing him and annoying him in all possible ways. If it wasn't for the Min's viewing that he needs her, he would've deservedly sent her away way earlier because she was insufferable.

[Maithanet]

Treating him like a child is just stupid. Sure, Cadsuane was right to stand up to him, but she went far overboard with this. Slapping him, humiliating him in public repeatedly, calling him a boy, etc - unnecessary, risky and counter productive. When you are treated like a child (which Cadsuane did right from the start), the natural reaction is to respond childishly too. Cadsuane knew Rand is close to the edge, yet kept pushing him and annoying him in all possible ways. If it wasn't for the Min's viewing that he needs her, he would've deservedly sent her away way earlier because she was insufferable.

I agree, it was pretty ridiculous. But what also bothers me is that the Min-viewing thing goes both ways. Rand could refuse to allow her to near him and actively send her away, and Min's viewing would still come true, somehow. So why he puts up with her bullying is beyond me.