Ken Stone Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 It was a draw ;)A draw that BJ said he lost. Regardless, sure makes it difficult to say that BJ is the "Much Better Fighter". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lessthanluke Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 A draw that BJ said he lost. Regardless, sure makes it difficult to say that BJ is the "Much Better Fighter".I happen to disagree with BJ but yeah. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GSP Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 CharlemangeEbsersole beating Lytle was a great fight too. Most people didn't really know Ebersole (as is the case with most ufc guys in their debut fight) and assumed Lytle was going to mop the floor with him. But I'd seen some materials on Ebersole and knew he was just as seasoned as Lytle and thought he might just surprise the fans. It is a testament to Lytle's solid chin that the fight wasn't over flat when he caught that knee right on it.A great fight just kind of lost with all the main event drama.I've already said it, Siver looked down right incredible! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stego Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 Fitch only caused a draw because of the scoring system. Penn won two rounds. Fitch won one round. I don't see how two to one equals a draw. As for records, Penn has fought a who's-who of MMA elites. Fitch has been coddled with fights against inferior opponents. He hasn't finished a fight since June of 2007. Ebersole is a lot of fun to watch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lessthanluke Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 CharlemangeEbsersole beating Lytle was a great fight too. Most people didn't really know Ebersole (as is the case with most ufc guys in their debut fight) and assumed Lytle was going to mop the floor with him. But I'd seen some materials on Ebersole and knew he was just as seasoned as Lytle and thought he might just surprise the fans. It is a testament to Lytle's solid chin that the fight wasn't over flat when he caught that knee right on it.A great fight just kind of lost with all the main event drama.I've already said it, Siver looked down right incredible!Ebersole - Lytle was a great fight. Silver looked very good and yet 3 fights ago he got comfortably beaten by Ross Pearson. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gilgamesh Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 Cartwheel kick rofl. Not as good as a ninja kick, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Stone Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 Fitch only caused a draw because of the scoring system. Penn won two rounds. Fitch won one round. I don't see how two to one equals a draw. As for records, Penn has fought a who's-who of MMA elites. Fitch has been coddled with fights against inferior opponents. He hasn't finished a fight since June of 2007. I would argue that any loser in any sporting engagement lost because of the scoring system.In the third round Fitch landed 140+ strikes vs Penn's 2. That is a 10-8 round. How as Fitch been coddled? What WW should he have fought that he didn't? The problem with Fitch is he is good enough that he beats every WW except GSP. If there is a WW contender it is a risk for the UFC to put them in there against Fitch because if Fitch wins you lose a contender for GSP. Plus if you know anything about the history of Fitch and the UFC you would realize how ridiculous it is to claim that the UFC would coddle Fitch. Dana wants nothing more than to see Fitch lose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GSP Posted March 1, 2011 Share Posted March 1, 2011 Round three was definitaly a 10-8. The draw made sense if one gives bj both the first two rounds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Analu Posted March 6, 2011 Share Posted March 6, 2011 I would argue that any loser in any sporting engagement lost because of the scoring system.Um, what? If you get knocked out or choked unconscious, then you didn't lose because of the scoring system. You lost because you were unconscious and couldn't continue. SF had a pretty good show last night. They always seem to put on great shows. Maybe it just seems that way because we're not paying $50 to watch it. I was sad that Billy Evangelista lost, though. To do a little name-dropping, I trained with him for a couple weeks in Thailand last year. Really nice, mellow, unassuming guy. I had no idea he was -that- Billy E. until the last couple days of training. Had a couple wild nights out with him, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GSP Posted March 6, 2011 Share Posted March 6, 2011 You went training in Thailand for a couple weeks last year? Damn. Tell more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Analu Posted March 7, 2011 Share Posted March 7, 2011 You went training in Thailand for a couple weeks last year? Damn. Tell more.Yeah I did. My wife is part Thai (and I have a little Thai in me as well) and we went on a family vacation to Thailand last year to visit relatives. I always wanted to train Muay Thai in Thailand, so me and my brother-in-law flew out a couple weeks early and trained at the Kaewsamwrit gym, which has a rep as an excellent MT gym. Buakaw and Bovy are from that gym. It was awesome but fucking brutal, man. They train every day from 6am-9am, then again from 3pm-6pm. Boxing sparring in the afternoon sessions on Monday, Wednesday, Friday and Saturday.Workouts went like this:6-6:45am: Running6:45-7:30am: Five 5-minute rounds on Thai pads and focus mitts with your Thai trainer.7:30-8:30am: 5-minute rounds alternating heavy bags and maybe some technique sparring.8:30-9am: Knee and punching drills. Stretching.3-3:30pm: Skipping with heavy jump rope3:30-4:15pm: Five 5-minute rounds boxing sparring4:15-5pm: Five 5-minute rounds on Thai pads and focus mitts with your Thai trainer.5-5:15pm: 20 100 yard wind sprints5:15-5:45pm: Clinching5:45-6pm: 30 pushups/100 situps/20 pullups. StretchingI'm no spring chicken at 26, but thought I was in pretty good shape going in. Yeah right. I was walking around like an old man after two weeks. I was eating like a horse too and had been trying to put on weight, but still dropped about 10-15 pounds. It was crazy, but a helluva lot of fun. They train punching in a very different than how I was taught, too. It was interesting, but really messed up my boxing mechanics for a bit. Anyways, I highly recommend anyone interested in Muay Thai or kickboxing to train in Thailand, if you ever get a chance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Stone Posted March 7, 2011 Share Posted March 7, 2011 Um, what? If you get knocked out or choked unconscious, then you didn't lose because of the scoring system. You lost because you were unconscious and couldn't continue. If the scoring system worked where you got a point every time you were KO'd, then you would win. My point is the scoring system is the sport so blaming the scoring system for a bad outcome doesn't make much sense. If you change the scoring system it changes the sport. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Analu Posted March 7, 2011 Share Posted March 7, 2011 If the scoring system worked where you got a point every time you were KO'd, then you would win. I'm trying to understand what you're saying here, but it still makes no sense to me. Why on earth would you need a scoring system for KOs when a KO ends the fight right there? It would be totally meaningless to score knockouts. My point is the scoring system is the sport so blaming the scoring system for a bad outcome doesn't make much sense. If you change the scoring system it changes the sport.Sorry, but that's some pretty backwards thinking right there. If it's a flawed scoring system, which the 10-point must system is, then it would be changing the sport for the better. What's wrong with that?IMO, the 10-point must system works for boxing (for the most part), but in MMA, it definitely needs to be modified. The best idea I've heard is adding 1/2 points to the system. And also get judges who actually know how to score MMA fights. Everyone hates draws. If knowledgable judges scored rounds using 0.5 increments, then I'm pretty sure the Maynard-Edgar and Penn-Fitch fights would've had definite resolutions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Walker Texas Ranger Posted March 7, 2011 Share Posted March 7, 2011 Why add 1/2 points? Why not just say that 10-9 is a close round and 10-8 is normal? If you add 1/2 points, it won't be long before 10-9 1/2 becomes the "New Normal" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GSP Posted March 7, 2011 Share Posted March 7, 2011 Bas Rutten and co. were discussing the option of the 'overtime round' in instances of the draw on MMA Connected. One more round, winner takes all. It would eliminate draws and lead to satisfactory resolution. There would be no three months plus for the fighters to retrain for the same opponent to see who the winner 'should' have been.Thanks for sharing about the Thai experience Analu. If I'm ever in that neck of the woods I'll try it out, although it sounds like I'd better get in much better shape first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Analu Posted March 7, 2011 Share Posted March 7, 2011 Bas Rutten and co. were discussing the option of the 'overtime round' in instances of the draw on MMA Connected. One more round, winner takes all. It would eliminate draws and lead to satisfactory resolution. There would be no three months plus for the fighters to retrain for the same opponent to see who the winner 'should' have been.I like the overtime round idea for championship fights. But if you made it a general rule, I can see some major issues the UFC would have with that. The chief one being that it'd be difficult for them to set their PPV schedule if they had to worry about possibly allowing an extra 5-7 minutes for each fight. The last thing they want to do is to have a main event cut off because they ran out of their alotted time. I remember that happening in the early UFC days. They had to refund everyone back their money, but people were still pissed because they missed the main event. I think adding 0.5 increments would be better than the current system because as it is, 10-8 rounds are pretty rare and have to show clear domination by the fighter the entire round. And 10-7 rounds are almost nonexistent. I think Starnes-Quarry was the last time that happened. In boxing, the scoring is pretty simple: 10-9 for whoever landed more shots, subtract a point for every knockdown or punch that clearly hurt the opponent. But it doesn't work great in MMA with takedowns, grappling, etc. Right now, 10-9 rounds have too much range. You see it every event: clearcut 10-9 rounds, then rounds that are really difficult to call and may be based just on one takedown or sub attempt.How many times have we seen a fighter go for a takedown in the last 10 seconds just to try to steal the round? They'll probably get the 10-9 score, but it clearly wasn't a definitive round. That's where the 0.5 incremental scoring would come in. It's not a perfect solution, but to me, would be better than what we have now. Probably the best solution would be just having judges that know what the fuck they're doing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Stone Posted March 7, 2011 Share Posted March 7, 2011 Um, what? If you get knocked out or choked unconscious, then you didn't lose because of the scoring system. You lost because you were unconscious and couldn't continue. We are talking about different things, at this point. You are talking about the way the judges use the scoring system, vs the scoring system itself. The scoring system is fine, some judges just don't do it right. You can't fix that by making cosmetic changes to the scoring system.I think adding 0.5 increments would be better than the current system because as it is, 10-8 rounds are pretty rare and have to show clear domination by the fighter the entire round. And 10-7 rounds are almost nonexistent. I think Starnes-Quarry was the last time that happened. In boxing, the scoring is pretty simple: 10-9 for whoever landed more shots, subtract a point for every knockdown or punch that clearly hurt the opponent. But it doesn't work great in MMA with takedowns, grappling, etc. Right now, 10-9 rounds have too much range. You see it every event: clearcut 10-9 rounds, then rounds that are really difficult to call and may be based just on one takedown or sub attempt.How many times have we seen a fighter go for a takedown in the last 10 seconds just to try to steal the round? They'll probably get the 10-9 score, but it clearly wasn't a definitive round. That's where the 0.5 incremental scoring would come in. Wouldn't this essentially be like increasing the points a goal in soccer is worth from 1 to 10 points, to make the scores larger? It seems like the only way this is useful is if it manages to trick the judges into issuing more 10-8 rounds (by calling them 10-9). If the root of the problem is "judges don't understand MMA or how to score it", then how would moving to a more complicated scoring system be beneficial? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horus Ex Machina Posted March 8, 2011 Author Share Posted March 8, 2011 Um, what? If you get knocked out or choked unconscious, then you didn't lose because of the scoring system. You lost because you were unconscious and couldn't continue. Tell that to Anthony LapsleySF had a pretty good show last night. They always seem to put on great shows. Maybe it just seems that way because we're not paying $50 to watch it. I was sad that Billy Evangelista lost, though. To do a little name-dropping, I trained with him for a couple weeks in Thailand last year. Really nice, mellow, unassuming guy. I had no idea he was -that- Billy E. until the last couple days of training. Had a couple wild nights out with him, too.Awesome story. Thank's for sharing. That's a trip I'd like to make someday. Yeah, I imagine that you're likely to find alot of MMA fighters out there brushing up on thier standup with the amount of fighters who usually put that trip on thier wishlists along with Brazil for BJJ. Billy had a rough outing, but Masvidal is just mor polished than he is at this point. He'll bounce back.Bas Rutten and co. were discussing the option of the 'overtime round' in instances of the draw on MMA Connected. One more round, winner takes all. It would eliminate draws and lead to satisfactory resolution. There would be no three months plus for the fighters to retrain for the same opponent to see who the winner 'should' have been.MMA promotions already have the option of making any non-title fight that they choose go for 5 rounds and to date they have chosen not to. Even Strikeforce, with thier HW Grand Prix, chose to lie and try to say that the commissions would not allow it, and the commissions came back and all said unanimously that this choice is in the hands of promoters. So if they allowed and overtime round, promotions would likely not use the option.Wouldn't this essentially be like increasing the points a goal in soccer is worth from 1 to 10 points, to make the scores larger? It seems like the only way this is useful is if it manages to trick the judges into issuing more 10-8 rounds (by calling them 10-9). If the root of the problem is "judges don't understand MMA or how to score it", then how would moving to a more complicated scoring system be beneficial?Pretty much the reason why the half-pt must system is pretty useless if you have the same bad judges using it.***Happy to see that the women's title fight between Marloes Coenen and Liz Carmouche was such a trending topic for purely fight-related and not ancillary reasons. But this article annoyed me and I wrote down why under the name "CK". Where did Jason Probst learn BJJ? Who the hell would ever rain down elbows from the full mount? I've never seen it. And I can't understand why it would be expected to be effective without getting swept first. I understand that Probst probably had an agenda for the legalization of elbows in SF but he used a horrible, horrible example. Elbows are only useful when you have control over your own base and can posture your body down on an opponent that's angled away from you, not an opponent that's directly underneath you. How stupid is that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lessthanluke Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 Who the hell would ever rain down elbows from the full mount? Jon Jones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Analu Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 We are talking about different things, at this point. You are talking about the way the judges use the scoring system, vs the scoring system itself. The scoring system is fine, some judges just don't do it right. You can't fix that by making cosmetic changes to the scoring system.Well, the scoring system right now isn't terrible, but it's a system that's tailored more towards boxing and 10 or 12 round fights. It's serviceable for MMA which is why they just transferred boxing's system over, but IMO they eventually need to install a better system for MMA. It'll never happen, but being the Pride geekboy that I was, I wouldn't mind if they used Pride scoring rules and judged the entire fight instead of rounds. Yellow cards would be great too. Wouldn't this essentially be like increasing the points a goal in soccer is worth from 1 to 10 points, to make the scores larger? It seems like the only way this is useful is if it manages to trick the judges into issuing more 10-8 rounds (by calling them 10-9). If the root of the problem is "judges don't understand MMA or how to score it", then how would moving to a more complicated scoring system be beneficial?I don't think it'd be a gimmick system. It's just allowing a larger point variance to account for rounds where a one-point difference doesn't tell the whole story. I don't think it's a perfect system, but it's the only one I've heard that makes a little sense to me. Going by boxing's history with judging, judges will always be shit. IMO, this would give them less reason to be shitty. Horus - Yeah, you should definitely try to make it out to Thailand some day to do some training. Give me a holler if you ever do, and I can fill you in on what I know when I was researching which gym to go to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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