MMA 11 - Beatdown after the BELL!

[Lord O' Bones]

It'd be a shame if he walked away from it all after one beat down. Take your lumps and learn like the rest of them.

Exactly. Word on the street is you're not a big pussy until you get beat down twice and retire.

[Analu]

Alot of this has to do with the current state of K1. If you don't know, Alistair Overeem and alot of the Golden Glory camp have been complaining about FEG for some time. Overeem specifically says that he still hasn't been paid for winning the World GP or his Dream MMA fight. Most ppl don't expect K1 to last the year and with it goes 20 years of kickboxing history. Now there it the "It's Showtime" kickboxing tournament, but without the prestige of K1, I think that Golden Glory is now encouraging thier fighters to make the transition to Strikeforce bc the sponsorship dollars are probably going to be alot more than on "It's Showtime".

Like I said, Golden Glory's pushing the issue so it might just happen. Especially if K1 goes down.

I had no idea K1 was about to go under. Been busy and haven't been checking any MMA sites for news. That really sucks. And it's being replaced with an org called "It's Showtime"? wtf

Anyways, hopefully Saki is training hard with Ubereem over at GG, and is ready for MMA. I think this guy has the best KB technique I've ever seen.

As for Brock, I'd say his biggest problem is something that you can kinda train for, but not really: he doesn't react well to getting hit. Classic bully mentality: can dish it out fine, but can't take it. Most wrestlers go right for their bread and butter single or double when they get hurt. That's part of what makes wrestlers so successful in MMA. Brock runs away with his hands over his head. I know he's getting hit by some big guys, but he's just as big and you don't see guys like Cain or JDS react that way to getting hit. They're looking to counter. But then, their striking is also much more polished than Brock, and they're putting themselves in the right position to counter.

Also, I think he's fallen into the BJ Penn trap of getting too comfortable running his own camps. You need someone there who has the authority to tell you what to do, to tell you that no, you're not taking a day off because you're sore, etc.

I actually think the loss to Cain will make him realize that his standup is really quite bad, and that he should be the type of fighter that he was in the Mir and Herring fights: someone who will take you down and smother you while he GNPs you to a pulp. But if he takes another beatdown, which he might well do against JDS, I could see him deciding fighting's not for him and retiring. He's one of the few MMA fighters with options: he can quit and still make choke money in WWE or whatever.

[Horus Ex Machina]

Brock's MMA career is a good thing because like Royce Gracie he has shown the fighting world that you can not ignore dimensions of your game and still be great. The general strength levels in MMA have risen over the last three years and this is partly due to the Brock effect. He is that much of a draw that he effects the training of thousands of fighters just by being who he is. Brock's problem now is that everyone else has got stronger, has he got any better? Weight training is not very hard to achieve, lift some weights.

Not entirely. Perhaps for the BJJ and Judo guys, but not for the wrestlers. Do you think that Tito, Rampage, Cain and others weren't strength training throughout their wrestling careers? No the strength training movement began when the BJJ guys came to fight in the states and realized how much stronger that wrestlers in general were than they were. But they all have been strength training to the point that guys like Shogun and Wandy were accused of using PEDs back in Japan. Overeem began bulking up before Lesnar was in the UFC. This isn't a Brock effect, Cain's always been strong. Rampage has always been freakishly strong. Tito's always been very strong. Matt Hughes, GSP, Sean Sherk, all incredibly strong guys for their size.

Brock is a part of that movement bc his training came from the same area of athletics that they did. Being 6'4" his size is naturally going to exceed wrestlers of smaller stature. But with his height he's more well proportioned than someone like Bobby Lashley.

I had no idea K1 was about to go under. Been busy and haven't been checking any MMA sites for news. That really sucks. And it's being replaced with an org called "It's Showtime"? wtf

Anyways, hopefully Saki is training hard with Ubereem over at GG, and is ready for MMA. I think this guy has the best KB technique I've ever seen.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/It's_Showtime

It's a Dutch-based promotion that has cross-promoted with K1 in the past. They promote shows under K1 rules and have planed to do shows in the US. However the crux of it is that K1 rules have never been sanctioned in the US. But being based in the Netherlands they don't have to worry about their market stagnating like the fad-based market that is Japan. The Netherlands loves kickboxing. Now the president of this horribly-named promotion was asked if he was considering buying out K1 in order to keep the name and legacy alive and he said no. He didn't want to take on their financial baggage and he felt that his company's name was strong enough to carry on as the #1 kickboxing promotion.

My opinion, they may be number two, but considering that the most prominent Dutch kickboxing school seems to not consider "It's Showtime", a promotion based out of thier own country, to be worth thier time and effort; it's time for them to consider re-branding.

He's one of the few MMA fighters with options: he can quit and still make choke money in WWE or whatever.

Actually he can't, he would have to fulfill the remainder of his UFC contract, then wait out an undoubtedly lengthy no-compete period before ever doing anything for the WWE. It was tried, which is why he's being allowed to host TUF. WWE wanted him to make an appearance at Wrestlemania and were offering around 5 million and the UFC blocked him from taking it.

As for him relegating his authority in his camp, remember that one of the main reasons that he left pro-wrestling was the grind and the schedule. He likes being able to train near his wife and family and be home for them. If MMA starts becoming the grind that wrestling was, does he have the drive to stick with it? I do think he likes competing again as opposed be being a glorified stunt man, but there are limits for him.

***

On another note, Silva's a bit upset that he isn't getting enough credit for beating Fedor and I can't blame him. What's so great about it, is that he found a way to complain about a lack of respect without disrespecting Fedor in the process. Brilliantly played man. He may look like a big Easter Island cro-magnon, but there's a brain in that huge melon of his.

[Ser Barry]

Velasquez is fighting 10lbs heavier than when he joined UFC. Brock did make a change in how a lot of fighters train. Using wrestlers as proof he didn't is shonky reasoning. Of course you can point out people who weight trained beforehand, what I said is that more fighters weight train more effectively now.

If you think that Shogun, Wandy and 90% of Pride fighters were not on juice you need a lie down and a cold drink.

[GSP]

"Exactly. Word on the street is you're not a big pussy until you get beat down twice and retire".

If this is a jab at me defending Fedor for wanting to retire after two defeats in a row, I'll point out that Fedor and Brock are in nowhere near the same position. Fedor has nothing to prove, has past his prime as a fighter, and was talking about moving on to do other things for years even while he was winning. I think Fedor's great, but we've seen the best out of him that we're probably going to. His game has not suffered from massive holes for years and years, if it ever did. Brock leaving at this point would be a shame because he's a baby in the sport, despite holding the UFC HW strap. I believe his potential is largely untapped and I'd hope to see him stick it out and fill out the massive holes in his game. How brutal could Brock be if he learned a better than average stand up game and some technical BJJ skills? Off the charts would be my guess and I hope we get to see it.

"He may look like a big Easter Island cro-magnon, but there's a brain in that huge melon of his."

I remember way back in an earlier thread I mentioned that Silva looked like a freak and Easter Island-esque. Shortly after that I learned that he suffers from Gigantism and instantly I felt bad about my comment. But it is true, I've never seen anybody who so resembles those statues. He in no way seems to lack intellect though, I'll agree.

[Ken Stone]

If this is a jab at me defending Fedor for wanting to retire after two defeats in a row, I'll point out that Fedor and Brock are in nowhere near the same position. Fedor has nothing to prove, has past his prime as a fighter, and was talking about moving on to do other things for years even while he was winning. I think Fedor's great, but we've seen the best out of him that we're probably going to. His game has not suffered from massive holes for years and years, if it ever did. Brock leaving at this point would be a shame because he's a baby in the sport, despite holding the UFC HW strap. I believe his potential is largely untapped and I'd hope to see him stick it out and fill out the massive holes in his game. How brutal could Brock be if he learned a better than average stand up game and some technical BJJ skills? Off the charts would be my guess and I hope we get to see it.

It just seems to me that Brock is too old to do this. If he was 20 and had 10 years to spend before hitting his prime, than maybe. As it is his best bet is to stick with what he is good at. Bring exciting fights and making tons of cash.

[GSP]

Exactly how old is Brock? Filling the holes in his game should make him climb in mma ability more than any physical decline by age should take lessen him, unless he's older than I believe he is, or is more banged up from his years in the WWE than has been apparent, at least I would think. Am I wrong?

[Ken Stone]

Exactly how old is Brock? Filling the holes in his game should make him climb in mma ability more than any physical decline by age should take lessen him, unless he's older than I believe he is, or is more banged up from his years in the WWE than has been apparent, at least I would think. Am I wrong?

He graduated university in 2000, meaning now he is 33-ish.

[GSP]

Still plenty of time if he isn't too beaten up from his athletic career thus far.

[Ken Stone]

Still plenty of time if he isn't too beaten up from his athletic career thus far.

I guess 33 is the age Randy Couture started his MMA career, so anything is possible. It just seems that what we are starting to see in this era of MMA is fighters peaking around 28-35, and then declining. It's becoming similar to other pro sports in that way, now that it is becoming more main stream and popular.

[Stego]

He's the same age as Fedor.

[GSP]

But Fedor's had years and years of wars.

What has Brock had, like 6 to 8 fights?

I do realize of course, a la Chris Benoit etc. that a WWE career can leave one a beaten up shell, but is there any indication Brock has suffered so?

[Stego]

But Fedor's had years and years of wars.

What has Brock had, like 6 to 8 fights?

I do realize of course, a la Chris Benoit etc. that a WWE career can leave one a beaten up shell, but is there any indication Brock has suffered so?

A WWE career takes more out of you than an MMA one, IMO. Weekly beatings as opposed to bi-annual beatings. Also, Fedor has not had an illness like Brock's. (Which he is still recovering from.)

[Analu]

Exactly how old is Brock? Filling the holes in his game should make him climb in mma ability more than any physical decline by age should take lessen him, unless he's older than I believe he is, or is more banged up from his years in the WWE than has been apparent, at least I would think. Am I wrong?

I don't think you're ever too old to learn new things. But it's all about swallowing your pride, because you're going to get humbled time and again while you go up the learning process. It's why I think very good boxers can't make the switch to MMA. They're so used to being the best at what they do, and getting choked out and tapping hundreds of times while they learn the ground game isn't something they can stomach.

Real tough matchup for BJ tomorrow against Fitch. Especially since Camarillo trained with BJ a lot at Ralph's in their younger days and probably has some good inside info for Fitch on what Penn likes to do on the ground. But then, a lot's changed in 10 years. If BJ can keep it standing then I think he'll take it. But that's a big if. No one but GSP has been able to stuff Fitch's takedowns.

Also, this is just the word out here, but apparently BJ's been doing some partying at the clubs in recent weeks. I haven't seen him, but I only go to clubs kicking and screaming. But then, it was also common knowledge here that BJ was out and about before the Hughes fight too. You just never know with BJ. One of the most frustrating fighters ever for fight fans.

[Ken Stone]

I don't think you're ever too old to learn new things. But it's all about swallowing your pride, because you're going to get humbled time and again while you go up the learning process. It's why I think very good boxers can't make the switch to MMA. They're so used to being the best at what they do, and getting choked out and tapping hundreds of times while they learn the ground game isn't something they can stomach.

It doesn't come down to if he is too old to learn. Clearly you can always learn new things. The question is can you become a good enough to use those techniques against professionally trained fighters. It's one thing to learn an armbar, and another to practice it 5k times in different combinations against different resisting opponents with different skill sets. Also, a person's time is limited. To work on one skill means ignoring another. Sure Brock could stop his 8 hour daily weight training sessions and focus on striking, but would he be trading his major advantage in the fight game (insane strength and explosivness) for a minor improvement in striking?

[Analu]

It doesn't come down to if he is too old to learn. Clearly you can always learn new things. The question is can you become a good enough to use those techniques against professionally trained fighters. It's one thing to learn an armbar, and another to practice it 5k times in different combinations against different resisting opponents with different skill sets. Also, a person's time is limited. To work on one skill means ignoring another. Sure Brock could stop his 8 hour daily weight training sessions and focus on striking, but would he be trading his major advantage in the fight game (insane strength and explosivness) for a minor improvement in striking?

Well in your example, he wouldn't be sacrificing anything. Hitting the heavy bag and focus mitts will build up strength and explosiveness in a fighter, depending on how you work the bags. Just in a different (and IMO better) way than weightlifting does. I think in regards to his striking, he's trying to learn too much too quickly and it's just an overload of information for him. His boxing was better two years ago when he fought Herring and Couture. He just has to learn to keep it simple.

And nowadays, fighters should have all the necessary coaching and tools that they need to complement old skillsets with new ones. They don't have to sacrifice one for the other. That's why they're pro fighters and we're just ordinary Joe Blows. If he wants to be an elite fighter like GSP and Silva, that's what he has to do.

I said before that he doesn't like to get hit and that it's not something you can break in training, but I guess that's not exactly true. He can use better movement to avoid punches and figure out in sparring what combos put him in bad positions to get hit by what punches, etc. But in his case, his head is the size of a watermelon and he's going to get hit, no matter what. Also, I don't think he really understands head movement yet. He understands the purpose of it, but it's not just constantly moving your head back and forth and bobbing and weaving, which is better than not moving your head at all, but is also a waste of energy. I hate when I see MMA fighters do that. He should forget about stuff like that, and go back to using simple combos to setup his shots. Anyways, that's my take on it.

[Horus Ex Machina]

Velasquez is fighting 10lbs heavier than when he joined UFC. Brock did make a change in how a lot of fighters train. Using wrestlers as proof he didn't is shonky reasoning. Of course you can point out people who weight trained beforehand, what I said is that more fighters weight train more effectively now.

If you think that Shogun, Wandy and 90% of Pride fighters were not on juice you need a lie down and a cold drink.

If you think that Brock's not on PEDs you need to lie down and have a cold drink. I never said the Pride fighters weren't on PEDs. But PEDs don't work without extensive weight-training and nutrition regimen. At least they don't work nearly as well. It's like saying that the Pride fighters juiced up and then spent their evenings after sparring playing XBox. Being on the juice means that you're weight-training if you wan't to get anything out of it.

The only thing that Cain traded when he joined the UFC was the money that he had to spend on better training. It had nothing to do with what Brock was doing. When GSP first joined the UFC and started to make money to hire his current trainer his trainer was surprised at the amateur level of strength training that he had. He couldn't do 15 pullups. Now if you can show me the cutoff from the time that Brock joined the UFC and show me a major uptick in any fighter's weight besides Frank Mir, then you have a point.

Bottom line, you're reading generalities into fact when you have little basis for it. Brock didn't lead any revolution, he's just the most notable example of what was already happening. And most fighters are on something, especially Brock who came from a mecca of PED use in the WWE.

[BLU-RAY]

Out of curiosity, anybody know the line on the Penn fight? All six of ESPN's "experts" (Jon Anik and his merry men) picked Fitch; is Penn that much of a dog here?

[Grayscale]

Out of curiosity, anybody know the line on the Penn fight? All six of ESPN's "experts" (Jon Anik and his merry men) picked Fitch; is Penn that much of a dog here?

On most betting lines it is fairly even with Fitch as a slight favorite. The biggest spread i've seen is on Bodog where Fitch is -175 and Penn is +225.

[Stego]

A motivated Penn embarrasses Fitch.