Is Tyrion a Rapist?

[Silverx2]

I'm sure this has all been gone over.

But tysha was the real deal, not a whore. When jamie releases tyrion he explains to him that tysha was not a whore, and that their father made jamie trick tyrion into thinking that she was. At that point when all of the guards and everyone had sex with her that may have been an instance of rape after being threated by tywin to let it happen.

As for shae, what she did and what bronn did are two different things.

Bronn did a duck and cover to get out of the line of fire. He didnt help tyrion but he didn't do what shae did and stand up and give Lie and pretty much seal tyrions fate. Fucking tywin was just the cherry on her slut sunday.

[Yarl Snow]

Those of you who are arguing whether or not you can rape a prostitute.. of course rape is wrong, and of course that is what happened to Tysha. Does anyone ever question that what Tywin does would be against the laws of modern society? He has killed children, butchered innocent people, I think gang rape is one of the mildest offenses on his list.

Considering what he could have done to Tysha, one could argue that she got off fairly light. He could have had her scourged and tied up in the town square for anyone to use, and then had her exiled. He could have simply killed her. Instead he used her to drive home a "sharp lesson" to his son, and sent her off with a minor fortune.

It is interesting to note, like someone had done in another thread, that The Sailor's Wife, the one who sleeps with Dareon in Braavos, who will only sleep with someone after she marries them (!), is probably Tysha.

[Sidonie]

It is interesting to note, like someone had done in another thread, that The Sailor's Wife, the one who sleeps with Dareon in Braavos, who will only sleep with someone after she marries them (!), is probably Tysha.

Oh, man, this is an awesome idea! I hope this turns out to be true. It sounds like, relatively speaking, the courtesans have a fairly decent life in Braavos.

BTW, where are the courtesans in Westeros? I DON'T mean prostitutes, I mean the true courtesans?

[Patrick Tully]

ADWD spoilers follow:

Even if one were to excuse Tyrion for the Tysha incident, based on mitigating factors, there is STILL the cruel rape of Illyrio's slave girl. Tyrion manages to take what should have been a (somewhat) consensual encounter and deliberately terrorize an innocent girl in a very malevolent way. After reading that chapter, any qualms I may have had about the term "rapist" were completely swept away.

So some crazy guy falls in "love" with a prostitute he is paying to service him and is therefore justified in murdering her for taking on another client, in particular if he hates the client and plans to murder him. That makes perfect sense!

*Nods head firmly*

Regarding the spoiler: I believe you have said this before,. If you are referring to the spoiler chapter that was on GRRM's site, that doesn't actual occur.

He scares her with the idea before he leaves to meet Illyrio. While meeting with Illyrio he says he doesn't want her. My assumption is that Illyrio's people will tell her to leave his room before he returns. So, he does terrorize her with the ideas and threats, but he does not actually go beyond scaring the hell out of her. How long she is left in terror isn't clear though.

As for Shae, I took his killing her as more revenge for doing her best to help have him executed via her testimony, plus the humiliation on top of it. No, I don't think that justifies murder either, but it wasn't premeditated.

[Lady Winter Rose]

Those of you who are arguing whether or not you can rape a prostitute.. of course rape is wrong, and of course that is what happened to Tysha. Does anyone ever question that what Tywin does would be against the laws of modern society? He has killed children, butchered innocent people, I think gang rape is one of the mildest offenses on his list.

Considering what he could have done to Tysha, one could argue that she got off fairly light. He could have had her scourged and tied up in the town square for anyone to use, and then had her exiled. He could have simply killed her. Instead he used her to drive home a "sharp lesson" to his son, and sent her off with a minor fortune.

It is interesting to note, like someone had done in another thread, that The Sailor's Wife, the one who sleeps with Dareon in Braavos, who will only sleep with someone after she marries them (!), is probably Tysha.

I think Tysha was killed shorthly afterwards. She married Tyrion and got fortune. It is too easy. She become one miss Lannister (shorthly, but still) and become rich. I started to suspect that Tysha is dead the minute Tyrion is proposed marriage with Sansa. Would you think that Tyrion is legally married (annuled, but still) and available to political gain? Sailor's Wife could be Tysha, if Tysha isn't dead.

[Mad Monkey]

Considering what he could have done to Tysha, one could argue that she got off fairly light. He could have had her scourged and tied up in the town square for anyone to use, and then had her exiled. He could have simply killed her. Instead he used her to drive home a "sharp lesson" to his son, and sent her off with a minor fortune.

Is that supposed to be mitigating? Because it's not a very good defense, unless you only condemn someone who does the absolute worst thing imaginable in every situation.

Any mistake, and he will be killed. He cannot let Tywin or Shae live.

He could have just left. He killed Shae and Tywin because he was angry, not because he had to. It's perfectly understandable, but just because something makes sense doesn't mean that it's justified.

Shae told a great many lies that helped convict Tyrion for regicide.

The trial was a sham. One of the judges publicly declared his intention to execute Tyrion even before it started, and every single witness was either a liar or a dupe concocted by Cersei Lannister. Shae humiliated Tyrion cruelly, but she didn't help him get convicted because that was a foregone conclusion. If anyone helped Tyrion get convicted, it was Grandmaester Pycelle, Taena. and all of those other witnesses who proved that Tyrion had access to the murder weapon, proved that Tyrion hated Joffrey, and proved that he put the poison in Joffrey's drink.

Girls may not be aware, and some of the men may have forgotten, but the penis does have a will of its own when you are 14.

Is that supposed to be funny, or are you seriously implying that men don't have any control at all over their actions when they're horny? Tyrion was under duress... from his father, not from his penis. Come on, man, you're way smarter than that!

[Datepalm]

Considering what he could have done to Tysha, one could argue that she got off fairly light. He could have had her scourged and tied up in the town square for anyone to use, and then had her exiled. He could have simply killed her. Instead he used her to drive home a "sharp lesson" to his son, and sent her off with a minor fortune.

That whole 'public rape stand' thing squicks the hell out of me. It seems just gratuitously nasty. I've never heard of similar things from medieval history, or even modern history - women publicly humiliated after WW2 with the shaved hair and so on, but being paraded about town naked? For weeks? The story just seems to revel in extreme sexual violence sometimes, to a degree that I find offputting. Its mostly done right - rape was (and maybe is) a fact of war, people do have weird violent sexual oedipal hangups, do commit crimes of passion, did marry underaged-by-modern-standards, etc.

But now and then theres a line crossed thats almost gleeful - like the 'chained up to be raped by random passersby' in Harrenhal or the '14 year old ordered raped by the entire garrison for marrying son' (...much of anything Tywin has a hand in, really) stuff, which just seems to me to be more out of some medieval fantasy BDSM porno (and not in a good way) than anything arising from real history or psychology.

[Yarl Snow]

Is that supposed to be mitigating? Because it's not a very good defense, unless you only condemn someone who does the absolute worst thing imaginable in every situation.

Of course not. I do not make any excuses whatsoever for Tywin's atrocities.

He could have just left. He killed Shae and Tywin because he was angry, not because he had to. It's perfectly understandable, but just because something makes sense doesn't mean that it's justified.

He could have left before Shae saw him. After that, it was too late. But like I said, he didn't need to go up there in the first place, and he probably knew that by doing so he would have to kill someone.

The trial was a sham. One of the judges publicly declared his intention to execute Tyrion even before it started, and every single witness was either a liar or a dupe concocted by Cersei Lannister. Shae humiliated Tyrion cruelly, but she didn't help him get convicted because that was a foregone conclusion. If anyone helped Tyrion get convicted, it was Grandmaester Pycelle, Taena. and all of those other witnesses who proved that Tyrion had access to the murder weapon, proved that Tyrion hated Joffrey, and proved that he put the poison in Joffrey's drink.

She was a character witness against him, who knew him closely. I would say that her testimony was very damning.

I never understood why Tyrion simply did not recall all the witnesses against him and crossexamined them.

Is that supposed to be funny, or are you seriously implying that men don't have any control at all over their actions when they're horny? Tyrion was under duress... from his father, not from his penis. Come on, man, you're way smarter than that!

Thank you, I think.

I did not say actions, I said penis. Yeah, I found the statement "My penis betrayed me" to be odd too, however, I am working with the instruments provided by GRRM, not the ones I would wish for. Apparently, his erection somehow made it impossible for him to refuse. I am saying that at 14, erections come easily.

Honestly, I think the whole scene is hard to accept.. after witnessing a gang rape of a woman he loved just a short while ago he is able to get an erection and have intercourse with her. I for certain would not be able to, but then, my father isn't Tywin Lannister.

[Lady Winter Rose]

Datepalm, I agree that ASOIAF has too many sex scene which some are too icky.

[Mark3]

Shae was certainly either bribed or coerced (and probably both), and manipulated cruelly by Cersei and/or Tywin, but I mean she did give false witness and lie under oath in front of the whole court that Tyrion had plotted the death of Joffrey (and the rest of his family) and meant to become king. On top of that, she twisted intimate details of their private life to crelly humiliate Tyrion and further cast him as a complete monster. Shae contributed more to Tyrion's death sentence even than any of the other liars that were called to testify - why else would she be called as the final witness? Because Cersei knew she was the most damaging (even moreso than Varys - who, it must be said, told only the truth, even if he did take it out of context to make Tyrion look guilty).

I'm not saying it was right to murder her (and it was murder), but all that ON TOP of the fact that he found her in her father's bed (wearing the g-d Hand necklace!) immediately after learning the cruel truth about Tysha, and you can see why Tyrion might be driven in the heat of the moment to do what he did.

As for Tysha, I don't think we know enough. From the description we have, it's plausible Tyrion did not know she was being forced.

[Miriel]

Shae was certainly either bribed or coerced (and probably both), and manipulated cruelly by Cersei and/or Tywin, but I mean she did give false witness and lie under oath in front of the whole court that Tyrion had plotted the death of Joffrey (and the rest of his family) and meant to become king. On top of that, she twisted intimate details of their private life to crelly humiliate Tyrion and further cast him as a complete monster. Shae contributed more to Tyrion's death sentence even than any of the other liars that were called to testify - why else would she be called as the final witness? Because Cersei knew she was the most damaging (even moreso than Varys - who, it must be said, told only the truth, even if he did take it out of context to make Tyrion look guilty).

I'm not saying it was right to murder her (and it was murder), but all that ON TOP of the fact that he found her in her father's bed (wearing the g-d Hand necklace!) immediately after learning the cruel truth about Tysha, and you can see why Tyrion might be driven in the heat of the moment to do what he did.

As for Tysha, I don't think we know enough. From the description we have, it's plausible Tyrion did not know she was being forced.

"... to drive home the lesson, Lord Tywin brought my wife in and gave her to his guards." AGOT.

Pretty clear she is being forced.

[Alexia]

"... to drive home the lesson, Lord Tywin brought my wife in and gave her to his guards." AGOT.

Pretty clear she is being forced.

Also, he shared Tysha's fate with Shae in a way that made it look as though he was trying to scare Shae, IIRC.

[Sidonie]

Also, he shared Tysha's fate with Shae in a way that made it look as though he was trying to scare Shae, IIRC.

Wow, I forgot about this. Shae KNEW Tywin was an abusive bastard to women like her, and yet she still wound up in his bedchamber.

It makes me wonder if Tywin just enjoys flexing his muscles over people and forcing them to do things. Maybe he forced Shae into his bed. I can't see her going willingly, knowing what she knows about him, even FOR gold.

[nan1973]

Well everyone sure has very persuasive arguments. Stop making me change my mind four times in a thread, argh!

Anyways I keep telling myself it's not right to sympathise with Tyrion, especially after he killed Shae. I kind of feel that it's like running some idiot off the road and killing him because he cut you off. The punishment doesn't fit the crime. But, you know, I still can't help but like him. I have this Match Point thing going on. I still want Tyrion to come out on top. I guess I keep thinking of him as this sensitive little boy who cried when they told him there were no more dragons.

Btw, I think Tysha was raped. I get the feeling that he was explaining a horrific experience in that bitter ironic way of his, in order not to show emotion.

[Yarl Snow]

Also, he shared Tysha's fate with Shae in a way that made it look as though he was trying to scare Shae, IIRC.

Wasn't that when he was trying to make Shae see that the threat to her from Tywin was real?

You make it sound as though he did it just for kicks.

[Alexia]

Wasn't that when he was trying to make Shae see that the threat to her from Tywin was real?

That's my point. The fact that he tried to scare Shae with what Tywin did to Tysha shows that he didn't think that Tysha consented to what happened to her (that it was rape) and that he believed that another prostitute would be frightened at the prospect and would not want it to happen to her.

Ergo, Tyrion knows perfectly well that Tysha was raped and didn't consent to the brutal assault on her.

[Yarl Snow]

That's my point. The fact that he tried to scare Shae with what Tywin did to Tysha shows that he didn't think that Tysha consented to what happened to her (that it was rape) and that he believed that another prostitute would be frightened at the prospect and would not want it to happen to her.

Ergo, Tyrion knows perfectly well that Tysha was raped and didn't consent to the brutal assault on her.

I see. Yes, I also have no doubt that Tyrion knew Tysha was being punished by Tywin. That was the whole premise of the situation, that a mere "whore" had tried to reach far above her station and was punished for it.

[Lord Varys]

Well, of course Tyrion did rape Tysha back then, but it was a forced rape. He was 13 years old and his father commanded him to do it. I'm not sure why or how he was capable to do the deed, but he was in his adolescence, and we men tend to be aroused by pretty much everything during this time. Most likely, Tywin dragged Tyrion out to watch this whole mass rape naked, and then ordered him to do his part, dismissing any objection by referring to Tyrion's visible signs of arousal, by saying something like 'We all see you want to do that, so go on'.

We also do not know the time line of events back then, but obviously Tywin and Jaime already had convinced Tyrion that Tysha was a whore. Without that, he would most likely not have done it.

Shae's murder is understandable from Tyrion's POV, in my opinion. The core of Tyrion's personality is this Tysha obsession. He likes and visits whores, because he thinks the woman he loves was one. Shae is only a replacement Tysha for him. He falls for her, but she never means to him as much as Tysha did. This is made crystal clear during his visions/dreams at the end of ACoK when Tysha is the one he really wants while dying, not Shae or his mother. And it is even more telling that he has this dream about Tysha and their marriage when he thinks his dying as well.

When Tyrion learned that Tysha was no whore, that there really was a woman in this world who loved him honestly, and that his father and brother took her away from him and made him mistreat her the way he did, it is clear that he wants to kill them. And Tywin deserves to die for that, of course. And for all his other atrocities as well.

As to Shae's and Tyrion's relationship, I can imagine that Shae really liked/loved Tyrion in a fashion. There are signs that she wanted to be close to him, not just to get more money and jewels, but to spend time with him. That she is not particularly eager to work in the kitchens or for Lollys is more than understandable. It makes little sense to be the mistress of a Lord when you have to please him and to work as a serving woman at the same time. That is not why women work as prostitutes.

The problem in this relationship is that Tyrion is never honest with Shae, or makes her feel that she is more to him than just a whore. When he tells her of Tysha, he does so to make Shae understand that his family is really twisted, and that his father is much more powerful than he is, and I think she gets that, but this does not really frighten her.

[Dolorous J]

Well, of course Tyrion did rape Tysha back then, but it was a forced rape. He was 13 years old and his father commanded him to do it. I'm not sure why or how he was capable to do the deed, but he was in his adolescence, and we men tend to be aroused by pretty much everything during this time. Most likely, Tywin dragged Tyrion out to watch this whole mass rape naked, and then ordered him to do his part, dismissing any objection by referring to Tyrion's visible signs of arousal, by saying something like 'We all see you want to do that, so go on'.

We also do not know the time line of events back then, but obviously Tywin and Jaime already had convinced Tyrion that Tysha was a whore. Without that, he would most likely not have done it.

Exactly right . That's why it's so stupid to accuse Tyrion of rape.

If anyone was guilty of a crime in this situation it was Tywin and Jaime , and Jaime even admitted as much.

[Cereal Forel]

I honestly feel that Shae was forced into saying what she said in testimony, and she was probably forced to be Tywin's whore. Tyrion is by far the gentlest of the Lannisters. Had she not agreed to testify against him (with every detail that she gave, including the "giant of Lannister" bit), Cersei likely would have given her to Qyburn. She had already given him people for much less. She's not likely to have attempted to seduce someone like Tywin, so she was likely forced into that position as well. She deserves pity IMO.

Tyrion's killing of Shae is a tragedy.