GRRM hopes not to "Pull a Lost"

[PaulineMRoss]

I was a huge LOST fan. I mean obssessive. I posted on The Fuselage (daily), I discussed mysteries and theories, I laughed and gasped and cried and yelled... the whole nine yards, really.[...] But I'll never regret watching it, or being part of the fandom.

Me too. Well, not The Fuselage, I was on a different forum, but obsessive - totally. Actually, the fan community was almost the best part of it. It was an amazing time. But season 6 finished it for me. It was so obvious that all the things I cared about, the little details that I thought meant something, meant absolutely nothing to the writers. They had no plan in mind at all. 5 brilliant seasons and then - phut. So I totally get where Mr Martin is coming from.

But in the 'whatever next?' aftermath of Lost, someone on my forum mentioned this great fantasy book that was going to be a TV show with Sean Bean, so I started AGOT and - WOW! It sort of exploded in my brain exactly the way the Lost pilot did. But the difference is, that Mr Martin does have a plan in mind. He knows exactly how ASOIAF is going to end (even if he's not sure how to get there yet).

And yes, maybe it's a bit rude to say what he said, but he's not the first to say the Lost ending sucked, and he won't be the last (because on a number of levels, it did). Darlton had it coming.

[schpat]

I don't think we will get all the answers by the end of the series, and I don't consider that to be doing an Lost.

If Jon never finds out who is mother was why should we? IF we never find out if Syrios off screen death was real why will that ruin the end?

Just because a mystery exists doesn't mean we need the solution to enjoy the story.

GRRM will not put in exposition just to please the fans, he will only tell the story that makes sense.

[End of Disc One]

Totally with doomsday here. I was part of another online community during LOST and it was by FAR the most enjoyable experience I've ever had on the internet, and I'd say the online community was the best part of the show. Despite season 6 being a let down, I don't regret a single second spent watching the show. Sure the show got out of hand but it was ambitious. I applaud Damon and Carlton for having the balls to "jump the shark" so many times but in such an awesome way.

[Herr Fick]

In fairness, at least Lost did have a plan, if not until the second half of the show. This is much, much more than can be said for BSG.

That may be, but Battlestar Galactica's overall plot from the mini-series to the middle of season three was more coherent and less contradictory nevertheless. R D Moore and his staff did not just invent random nonsense on a daily basis; and the random nonsense they did* invent could have been resolved in a (more or less)** consistent as well as non-deus-ex-machina manner during season four - which, of course, did not happen. Lost, on the other hand, is a vastly incoherent and inconsistent mess full of random - but fashionable - nonsense from start to finish. I doubt that it would have been possible to resolve its "mysteries", because they weren't mysteries anyway.

*: I'm reminded of your essay The Arc of Truth, where you wrote something along the lines of 'BSG's writers never had a clue as to where their series was going and put in random shit because it was cool' - I concur, but until season three it didn't show.

**: The unlikely supernova in Rapture admitteldy is a big obstacle to common sense...

[Axon]

I don't think we will get all the answers by the end of the series, and I don't consider that to be doing an Lost.

If Jon never finds out who is mother was why should we? IF we never find out if Syrios off screen death was real why will that ruin the end?

Just because a mystery exists doesn't mean we need the solution to enjoy the story.

GRRM will not put in exposition just to please the fans, he will only tell the story that makes sense.

GRRM has stated that we will learn Jon's parentage, and Howland Reed still has a role to play. Otherwise, I agree that we will not have all the answers. I think the distinction between Lost and ASOIF is that Lost kept raising question after question while GRRM keeps a fairly tight lid on things. And even then, George has the advantage; it's much easier to resolve plot lines in a novel than on television, which is so demanding on a writer's efficiency.

[Padraig]

I agree. But I'm perplexed because these people all work or have worked in the same field, scriptwriting. They stand together when their rights are threatened (see writers' strikes). I would expect a certain loyalty, some esprit de corps.

As Ran said, I imagine GRRM would be surprised to learn that his views are seen as important in Hollywood. Writers of fiction are pretty low on the totem poll. It just happens that right now, he is getting a lot of attention. And it may make him more circumspect. I'm sure his next interview will ask him about the Lindelhof thing. We'll see what he says.

But i'm not sure i'd agree with the idea that you can't criticise somebody just because you happen to work in the same field. GRRM is aware that he might dissappoint his fans. In fact, GRRM is aware that he has already dissappointed his fans. I don't think he has ever said fans shouldn't be dissappointed. He wouldn't like somebody to say that another person pulled a Martin but I expect he would understand why it was said. (And in fairness to Lindelof also, he gave a very good interview on how he reacts to criticism. He is also aware that criticism isn't wrong even if he disagrees with it).

So in the same way, I don't think GRRM would feel that it is wrong to say that other people have dissappointed him. The ending of Lost certainly split fans. And GRRM said years before that ending that (while he loved the show) he was worried about it letting him down with a stupid ending. In fact, he said then that he really hoped it doesn't end with all the cast been dead.

So I really don't understand the "distasteful" remark. That sounds rather strong. Lindelof is a lot more powerful in Hollywood that GRRM. If he was picking on some minor writer, I might understand the remark better. I don't see honesty as a bad thing in itself. I know you complained about his comments on Harry Potter before but I think you read that the wrong way also.

And in the interview he did speak about why he disliked Lost. So its not that he merely gave a witty quip about it.

[Abaddon]

By the way, isn't he the one who is (rightfully) offended when people beg him not to "pull a Jordan"? Shouldn't he be (rightfully) upset when other tardy writers are accused of "pulling a Martin"?

Since only one involves the author dying, I'm going to have to vote "no" on that one.

Agree with most of the rest of your points, GRRM could be more gracious. I do get the impression, though, that his disgust with the Lost ending was not "casual" at all; he obviously watched and bought into the series, and was as disappointed as many other huge Lost fans when it turned out to be largely (depending on who you listen to) smoke and mirrors. He was also very scornful of the BattleStar Galactica and Terminator: TSCC endings, and apparently had tough things to say about Harry Potter as well, so I have to think at the end of the day that it isn't personal. A little tacky -- yeah.

[evanesco75]

What were his comments about Potter? Curious.

LOST didn't exactly end with 'they were all dead' btw. Everything that happened on the island (and off during flashbacks and ffs) was real. The sideways wasn't...

I understand knowing this and still feeling the ending was a bit 'they were all dead' in the sense that we got to see a final reunion etc, but to me that was just a feel-good epilogue. The main story ended with some dead, some free and some on-island.

Personally, I would have preferred it being an alternate universe, somehow created by the hydrogen bomb detonation, but in the end it was their show, their ending.

I do think Lindelof's admiration for GRRM is significantly more evident than any negativity he may be experiencing over the remark. And that's cool because GRRM's a genius, imo. :)

[Werthead]

Martin has said in the past he doesn't like talking about other authors if he doesn't have positive things to say. Of course, his comments about BSG and Lost were made when he was out of the TV business, so those writers weren't his peers and he could talk like a fan. Now, of course, he's back in the TV mix and suddenly it isn't some random guy who's written some books knocking these shows, it's the creator of HBO's next hit TV series, which makes it a bigger deal.

It'll be interesting to see if GRRM returns to not talking about his fellow writers in this field again to avoid issues like this. Still, any publicity is good publicity I guess.

[Inglorious Pencil]

But I'll never regret watching it, or being part of the fandom. The acting, the directing, the mistakes and failures and flaws of the characters, the music (Michael Giacchino is a genius) and the location itself... it all conspired to make for a unique television experience for me.

This. I guess it all boils down to whether you focus on the journey or on the destination - and Lost was one hell of a journey, IMO. I've been watching reruns on tv lately and even if I knew all too well what was going to happen next, it was still enjoyable. I roll my eyes when I see comments like "I never watched Lost but it doesn't seem all that" because well, most stories are pretty unimpressive when you narrow them down to a short summary or out of context extrapolations. Heck, one of the reasons I started reading ASoIaF later than I could was exactly this - if you narrow it down to dragons, ice zombies and knights it doesn't seem particularly interesting. It's when you get inside the story and get to know the characters and the intertwining subplots that you realize that there's much more to it.

[evanesco75]

Agreed. Certain iconic moments and emotional breakthroughs for characters still give me goosebumps, no matter I've watched the scenes many times. Charlie's heroin addiction battle in The Moth and how Locke guides him... stellar stuff. And knowing how things would play out afterward (their estrangment, Charlie's death, heck, the entire show's ending) somehow doesn't detract from my enjoying a particular episode or scene etc.

I guess the characters really resonated with me. The acting was top notch, overall.

Regarding BSG, I loved the show, hated the God-did-it ending. That angle just doesn't work for me, unfortunately. But again, I still like the show, and would gladly watch some of the best episodes again. As with LOST, the acting and characterizations were brilliant.

[alguien]

From his tweets, I got the sense that the "feud" was just one of the Lost writer's taking the mickey--perhaps also pointing out that he didn't think his TV show ended that badly.

In any event, I thought it was just a bit of harmless internet banter--but now I've read articles that treat it as though its an actual feud.

Probably just the ridiculous echo chamber of the internet.

[Blackfish Blues]

As Ran said, I imagine GRRM would be surprised to learn that his views are seen as important in Hollywood. Writers of fiction are pretty low on the totem poll. It just happens that right now, he is getting a lot of attention. And it may make him more circumspect. I'm sure his next interview will ask him about the Lindelhof thing. We'll see what he says.

But i'm not sure i'd agree with the idea that you can't criticise somebody just because you happen to work in the same field. GRRM is aware that he might dissappoint his fans. In fact, GRRM is aware that he has already dissappointed his fans. I don't think he has ever said fans shouldn't be dissappointed. He wouldn't like somebody to say that another person pulled a Martin but I expect he would understand why it was said. (And in fairness to Lindelof also, he gave a very good interview on how he reacts to criticism. He is also aware that criticism isn't wrong even if he disagrees with it).

So in the same way, I don't think GRRM would feel that it is wrong to say that other people have dissappointed him. The ending of Lost certainly split fans. And GRRM said years before that ending that (while he loved the show) he was worried about it letting him down with a stupid ending. In fact, he said then that he really hoped it doesn't end with all the cast been dead.

So I really don't understand the "distasteful" remark. That sounds rather strong. Lindelof is a lot more powerful in Hollywood that GRRM. If he was picking on some minor writer, I might understand the remark better. I don't see honesty as a bad thing in itself. I know you complained about his comments on Harry Potter before but I think you read that the wrong way also.

And in the interview he did speak about why he disliked Lost. So its not that he merely gave a witty quip about it.

I hope that I did not get LOST in translation and that "distasteful" means what I think it means. What I intended was "in poor taste". I agree with your reasoning (apart from the fact that the LOST cast isn't all dead - in most realities :D), but the "poor taste", "petty" comments were my first gut reaction. I can't explain it fully even to myself. I thought: "Oh yeah, but meanwhile LOST is finished, one way or another; what have YOU done lately?" I admit this is rather unfair because GRRM did finish ADWD. But I don't think it depends from being a LOST fan; my reaction would have been the same if he had said "pulling a BSG", and I haven't watched BSG beyond the first season (no time, alas).

It's not the content of what he said. It's the style.

Maybe my problem is that I can't tell when GRRM is joking. While I appreciate enormously his sense of humour, sometimes it strikes me as aggressive when it's not meant to be. It's just me, I guess. The Harry Potter thing, for what I can remember (this is for doomsday too), struck me first fairly recently, when he made a disparaging mention of HP fans during his latest visit to Ireland. Unfortunately I can't find the relevant "Not A Blog" entry. I felt it was... yes, I have to call it petty, again. A bit like "Team Stark vs. Team Potter". And I AM a HP fan, so I was slightly peeved. I later learned that it was a fairly friendly feud with JKR (friendly? once again I wasn't able to decipher the tone) after she had won the Hugo and he had not. But I admit I do not know exactly how the HP thing started, I was just miffed by that post.

Since only one involves the author dying, I'm going to have to vote "no" on that one.

Ah yes, if you mean that "pulling a Lost" is less in bad taste than "pulling a Jordan", I agree with you. However I still think that such an off-handed comment calls attention more to the wittiness (or lack thereof) of the quip, to the brilliant sound byte, than to the content of it. "Pulling a LOST" means absolutely nothing in itself. True, GRRM did explain himself at greater lengths, but from such a great writer I'd not expect a resort to witty and empty clichés.

Yeah, maybe that's my problem. I idealize GRRM too much, and expect him to be superior to everything and everyone else.

I think someone also commented that GoT is not going to be damaged by GRRM's comments - sorry, I can't find the post. Yes, I too don't think that LOST fans will give up on GoT in such numbers as to hurt its popularity. My worry is more about GRRM's tendency to let his mouth get ahead of his brain on some occasions. This time it won't hurt him, I hope it never does.

[Phostopheles]

Maybe my problem is that I can't tell when GRRM is joking. While I appreciate enormously his sense of humour, sometimes it strikes me as aggressive when it's not meant to be. It's just me, I guess. The Harry Potter thing, for what I can remember (this is for doomsday too), struck me first fairly recently, when he made a disparaging mention of HP fans during his latest visit to Ireland. Unfortunately I can't find the relevant "Not A Blog" entry. I felt it was... yes, I have to call it petty, again. A bit like "Team Stark vs. Team Potter". And I AM a HP fan, so I was slightly peeved. I later learned that it was a fairly friendly feud with JKR (friendly? once again I wasn't able to decipher the tone) after she had won the Hugo and he had not. But I admit I do not know exactly how the HP thing started, I was just miffed by that post.

I rightly understand Martin's anger at losing to Harry Potter. For one, Storm of Swords is the most engaging book in the cycle so far; if any of his books could (or should) have won a Hugo award, it was that one. For two, while again I admit that if any of the Harry Potter books deserves an award as a standalone book it should be Goblet of Fire, it simply isn't on the same level (both in maturity and style) as traditional Hugo nominees. I happen to be in the camp that a separate Hugo award should be created for the children's/young adult category...

I feel the same way about Gaiman as well. Great graphic novelist...but without graphics his writing is basically on par with really good children's fiction at it's best...and really bad fanfiction at it's worst. Like Rowling, I find him a tad overrated.

[alguien]

I feel the same way about Gaiman as well. Great graphic novelist...but without graphics his writing is basically on par with really good children's fiction at it's best...and really bad fanfiction at it's worst. Like Rowling, I find him a tad overrated.

>Thread drift<

I think that's a bit much. Know that a lot of people disagree. American Gods =/= children's fiction and I think it's a brilliant book--possibly his best.

(and it also won the 2002 Hugo, Nebula, Locus, SFX Magazine and Bram Stoker awards)

Chicago has Neverwhere currently as its book of year and is doing all these events based around it.

[Swordfish]

GRRM has stated that we will learn Jon's parentage, and Howland Reed still has a role to play. Otherwise, I agree that we will not have all the answers. I think the distinction between Lost and ASOIF is that Lost kept raising question after question while GRRM keeps a fairly tight lid on things.

Uhh.... WUTNOW??

[Padraig]

The Harry Potter thing, for what I can remember (this is for doomsday too), struck me first fairly recently, when he made a disparaging mention of HP fans during his latest visit to Ireland...I later learned that it was a fairly friendly feud with JKR (friendly? once again I wasn't able to decipher the tone) after she had won the Hugo and he had not.

JKR might be familiar with him now given the HBO TV series but I'd be surprised if she was aware of his existence over a year ago. So it wasn't a great feud. :)

I can't remember what he said about HP in Ireland. I know he has joked about HP before. But his issue with JKR is more about her disparagement of the genre than her beating him for the Hugo (that event just emphasised what she thought of the Hugo award).

I do agree that the turd comment wasn't very tactful. And as Wert, I wonder will he change his approach now that he is part of Hollywood again.

[Asha—Not Yara!]

Uhh.... WUTNOW??

Yep here's the link which records Martin's answer:

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Many_Questions2/

5- Will we know in time, with certainty, the identity of Jon Snow's parents (I don't believe Edric Dayne's tale)? Personally, I really hope he's Lyanna and Rhaegar's son, despite looking so much like Eddard.

Jon's parentage will be revealed eventually, yes.

For some reason these pages are loading really slowly for me, so I don't have the patience to look for the Howland Reed bit, but I think it's a safe bet he's going to be showing up eventually in the story.

[End of Disc One]

Yep here's the link which records Martin's answer:

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Many_Questions2/

10- Have you begun writing A Dance with Dragons? And if yes, when will it be coming out?

The next book will be out in fall, 2002.

LMAO

[Asha—Not Yara!]

He was just a tiny bit off on that one, wasn't he? ;) I am assuming that was asked before he decided to split the book as AFFC came out in 2005.