[BOOK SPOILERS] EP101 Discussion, Mark II

[Xenophon]

How does being disgusted by your spouse and being unable to control him or her establish power dynamics? That sounds like a problem in many marriages across many different cultures.

Cersei + the Viserys/Dany relationship showed the position of women in the show pretty well, I thought. This is a world where women have it rough. They get married off to solidify political alliances, and if their husbands are jerks, there's very little they can (officially) do about it. I thought it was brilliant to pair the over-the-top cruelty of Viserys towards his sister, with the more subtle cruelty of Robert towards Cersei. In both cases, the women are humiliated by their situation, but they persevere and find a way to survive. IMO, it brought the two plots together thematically, and helped unify the episode.

[Papa Manderly's Meat Pie]

In both cases, the women are humiliated by their situation, but they persevere and find a way to survive. IMO, it brought the two plots together thematically, and helped unify the episode.

Well put, that is how I perceived it as well.

[Myrish swan]

I loved it. The pace, the actors, everything.

I especially liked Lena Heady as Cersei. I think she gave a quiet dignity to the part that Cersei often lacks (but I think, should have) in the books. Also, Michelle Fairly was great as Catelyn. Though I think in some of her actions they seem to be trying to make her a more sympathetic, "womanly" figure, rather than the stoical, hard as nails woman she was in the books. (For instance, her quiet protests against the beheading, her desire for him not to go South, etc.) The fact that she is both "hard" in pursuing her duties and what is expected of her and her family and simultaneously a loving wife and mother is what makes her such an interesting, dynamic character in my mind. But perhaps people will find the Catelyn devoid of her hardness, proactiveness, and family ambition more sympathetic in the TV version.

Anyway, I loved Jaime and Tyrion as well, although the scene with the dozen hookers was a bit heavy handed in some respects. (Though it did show the closeness between the brothers quite well, as others have said.)

My one small problem is Ned. He seems a little bit more of an "action man" in this show than he seemed in the books-- that is, cocky, sardonic, boastful, awesome at fighting and athletic pursuits, snarky, etc. Of course, we haven't seen much of him so far, and my feelings are not based on much. In particular I was bothered by his line to Jaime, "I don't like to fight in tournaments, because when I fight a man for real, I don't like him to know what I can do." That line, and Sean Bean's delivery, were just not the Ned of the books to me.

One interesting thing about book Ned, in addition to his surface stoicism hiding his intense emotions, is the fact that he's really not a conventional hero. He was not the original heir to Winterfell, and as it notes, he's not particularly tall, and is fairly plain looking. In addition, he's not particularly charming; he seems somewhat shy and socially awkward. (When LF bates him in AGoT, he is not particularly witty.) Most of all, he's only really an average fighter, and is thus not really all that boastful. That line seemed to make him more witty/ confident/ and physically strong than he ever was in the books. So...yeah. Maybe I'm making to much of one little line, but since the Jaime exchange seemed like a character forming moment, it just struck me the wrong way.

Anyway, overall I loved it.

[Jon M]

Like others, I'm new to the forum and was lucky enough to come to the series either right before or right after Feast was published. I have been waiting, impatiently, for Dance. I just started AGoT again so that I'll have finished Feast right about the time Dance is delivered :)

I haven't the time nor patience to read through everything that's been written so far, so I'll probably repeat things that have already been said.

As far as this first episode, I was not as impressed as I'd hoped to be. Most of the details stray far from the book, from scene settings, to who said what, right down to the Stark sigil, which is supposed to be a running Direwolf not just a head, being wrong. The entire scene where they found the Direwolf pups was wrong, wrong, wrong! They referenced things but left them unexplained, like "waking the dragon". And they basically made it look like Drogo raped Daenerys, which is unfortunate as that may have been one of the best scenes early in the book, with a look into Drogo's character that you'll never really get to see again.

I am also unimpressed with much of the acting. 3/4 of the actors seem to be uncomfortable with their characters and their lines. I'm somewhat disappointed in the casting, now that I've seen them in action. I think some of them look right, but aren't really portraying their characters accurately.

Catelyn looks nothing like what I would've expected. Many of the others look nothing like they are described. I know it's difficult to match all of the details, but things like hair color and length shouldn't be that hard to get right. They could've done some simple things, like colored contacts, to make Viserys & Dany's eyes the right color; same with Tyrion, with his one black eye & one green eye and his blond hair that's almost white, in curls down to his collar.

The devil's in the details, as the saying goes. I guess we'll see what's to come.

I'm also disappointed with the language. The word f**k doesn't appear once in the books, does it? It certainly hasn't so far as I've re-read in AGoT. Changing the language into more normal English takes away from the story. Little things like the opening scene, where it's "are you afraid" instead of "which sound is it that unman's you so?" Do they think people won't understand? It's simple enough.

And I swear, if I here "white walkers" one more time I'm going to scream! They are the "Others" 99% of the time! GRRR!

I had a really hard time staying focused on the episode. I've had to watch it a couple of times to get through it. I hope it gets better.

In Westseros, Mentrual cycles, like the seasons are very irregular. You'll have long stretches of no period (without being pregnant), and when it comes, it lasts for weeks. ;)

Also, I really liked Daenearys's hair at her wedding.

I think, since they changed the ages in the show and since in Sansa's case this is a big moment, it may be an important detail for later episodes.

I already argued from the point that steel is ineffective against The Others and my point is that steel is just iron with some carbon content (<2%). There's no reason to think that iron has anything to do with heat that steal hasn't.

The important thing we've learned about both The Others and the wights are that they are vulnerable to heat. The wight was set on fire and died and the Other that was killed was stabbed by obsidian, which is volcanic glass (the link to fire/heat is obvious). My point is that iron does not play with the weaknesses we've been given at all and we know that a human hero had to seek out the Children of the Forest the last time The Others marched on Westeros because men had nothing to stop them with. The Children didn't use metals so they wouldn't be using iron against them, they would just use their obsidian weapons.

I'm not saying that you're wrong because that's impossible to say until we've read the books, but I don't think anything points towards that iron has anything to do with the others.

Since I haven't read through all the posts, you may have already covered this, but if not, I thought I'd mention that, as far as the show is concerned, that the discussion of whether or not the iron swords matter is irrelevant, since in the show the Stark dead are all holding spears and they don't appear to be metal.

[Kalbear]

I'm also disappointed with the language. The word f**k doesn't appear once in the books, does it?

Yes, FUCK shows up all the time in the books. You're self-censoring.

If you're really having a hard time with them changing completely unimportant details chances are there will never be a show that will work for you as far as this goes. If it bothers you that Dany doesn't have purple eyes or that they don't show a 13 year old getting naked and being raped on television, you're likely not going to be happy.

[JackintheBeanstalk]

Since I haven't read through all the posts, you may have already covered this, but if not, I thought I'd mention that, as far as the show is concerned, that the discussion of whether or not the iron swords matter is irrelevant, since in the show the Stark dead are all holding spears and they don't appear to be metal.

This thread includes Book Spoilers, and I was the one who brought up the topic of iron swords vs. spears in the show, because I feel that the iron swords in the book are important. So. Tangential maybe, but not irrelevant, in my opinion.

[Ferrum Aeternum]

Not gonna take the time to dissect this extensive list of nitpicks, but this one:

I'm also disappointed with the language. The word f**k doesn't appear once in the books, does it? It certainly hasn't so far as I've re-read in AGoT.

Seriously? The word is used on numerous occasions, by multiple characters. The "40,000 men and their horses" line defines Viserys as well as any other line of dialogue he says. You don't remember that from the book?

[Tywin's bastard]

He didn't realize there was a king Aerys. I think he first thought Viserys actually was the king that was usurped, then realized that wasn't right, and then just wasn't sure how exactly he was connect to Robert et al.

Ok, that's understandable. The time frame is set though as Viserys says that he's waited 17 years to get his throne back, but there's a lot of information to remember so I fully understand that a good deal of it won't stick right away. I was just curious because while I do have some non-reader friends that will be watching the show it's not a great selection.

[Tywin's bastard]

Since I haven't read through all the posts, you may have already covered this, but if not, I thought I'd mention that, as far as the show is concerned, that the discussion of whether or not the iron swords matter is irrelevant, since in the show the Stark dead are all holding spears and they don't appear to be metal.

That was the fact that started the little discussion we were having. JackintheBeanstalk felt that there might have been a significance of the swords in relation to the Others and that this change would in that case not work with that.

Edit: Apparently I can't read and missed that Jack had already responded to this.

[Lany Freelove Cassandra]

Of course, my reaction could change if I found out the actress is much older than she looks...

She's 23. While not a teenager, still pretty young.

[Papa Manderly's Meat Pie]

Most of all, he's only really an average fighter, and is thus not really all that boastful.

I don't know about that, I always thought he was a very good fighter. Didn't he personally defeat two of the kingsgaurd to get to Lyanna? I may be remembering this wrong, but that would certainly speak to his fighting skills as at least above average.

I would agree that he is not that boastful, and the show strayed a little bit with that depiction. I think the show probably feels they need a little more of an engaging "main" character early on to keep the interest of the non-reader viewers.

[JackintheBeanstalk]

That was the fact that started the little discussion we were having. JackintheBeanstalk felt that there might have been a significance of the swords in relation to the Others and that this change would in that case not work with that.

Edit: Apparently I can't read and missed that Jack had already responded to this.

Thank you for "having my back", T'sB.

[Eponine]

I don't know about that, I always thought he was a very good fighter. Didn't he personally defeat two of the kingsgaurd to get to Lyanna? I may be remembering this wrong, but that would certainly speak to his fighting skills as at least above average.

When he fought the KG, Howland Reed helped him in some way that gave him the advantage - I don't recall that it was ever spelled out specifically though.

It's pretty well acknowledged that Ned is a good and proficient fighter compared to everyone in Westeros. He grew up in a noble house with instruction in sword fighting, riding, archery, etc. Among the nobles, the type of knights who would be expected to hold their own in tourneys, command armies in war, and display fighting prowess, it seems he's not exceedingly strong or fast or aggressive. He wouldn't be expected to beat a member of the KG or win a tourney. That doesn't mean that he's some hedge knight that can't find the pointy end of his own sword.

[Tyrion Lannister]

She's 23. While not a teenager, still pretty young.

Still pretty young--but old enough where I don't feel uncomfortable with her being naked on-screen if her character calls for it, which Dany clearly does.

[lokisnow]

Did anyone else not like how HD and overfocused the settings were? I thought that it made the scenes look somewhat staged.

Your TV is probably set up wrong, like most TVs are natively of with 'motion smoothing'. Turn off that abysmal function and it will suddenly look a lot more filmlike instead of realer than real.

Most televisions these days have a way to disable the anti-judder technology that smooths out the motion between frames, and while most people won't even bother to change it, people should be aware of its existence, especially if the motion appears fake or unreal.

--

Overall I was stunned at how much they packed into a single episode. It's so strange to not have commercials and to realize that show can be longer than 42:30 and still be an 'hour long' show. Since I work in commercial television and every day watch down shows that are 42 minutes long it discombobulates me that an hour of television has so much content.

I am incredibly impressed by the economy involved in the introductions, and the efforts made to still take their time with scenes and not rush things. I would almost say that the pacing is just a hair bit slow, but it's not really a concern because I really love that they take the time for Dany to slowly enter the bath, or give time for the pageantry of the royal arrival. That they managed to introduce and distinguish All the lannisters, the king, all the starks, the wall and Dany and Viserys in a single episode as well as progressing the plot significantly (rather than just exposition we also get the wedding and Bran's fall), I thought the episode was really nicely structured in a serial fashion. I don't really feel it has a beginning middle and end as a single episode of TV, per se, but I'm not sure HBO is interested in making TV shows that have single episodes stand alone. On the other hand, it doesn't quite feel like 1/10 of a very long movie or miniseries so they're striking a nice balance between stand-alone and single work.

The series opens with a really spectacular sequence, the silent progression into the northern wastes. I love the methodical opening shot, as the gate slowly rises in front of Waymar Royce and company. The metaphor is nicely done, HBO is lifting the gate for the series, letting us into the world. While Will is a very noisy ranger, with a noisy horse, and crawls noisily up on the Wildlings, the atmosphere of unease is quite well established, and there are a number of a wonderfully staged shots in this sequence. And then we run into the Uruk-hai and I get my first major disappointment of the series. The Others-cum-Uruk-Hai are profoundly wrong in every way compared to my imagination. I pictured them as more monstrosities, silver/blue/white/ice colored skin with a build that was bipedal but perhaps only vaguely human, not proportioned like a man-in-monkey-suit-and-rasta-hair sillyness that HBO chose.

I only harp on this point because I feel so early in the show, getting the Others wrong (it's a Shame that Lost's use of the term forces HBO to use White Walkers or Wight Walkers) could be a turn off for some people. But that is always the danger for the show in even including the prologue since it is so very different from anything else we'll see for the next four or five episodes, and very different from the rest of the premiere episode.

Sean Bean is nothing at all like I imagined Ned to look, but he absolutely projects the air, gravitas and authority of Ned as I imagined him. He so completely nails the part that I already hear his voice when I skim through a book and see some Ned Dialog. Catelyn, I feel, is perfectly cast, she has a hardbitten, tough as nails quality to her that is going to develop extremely well when she spends most of the rest of her characters life out adventuring on the continent. Maisie Williams is perfection as Arya, and other than a REALLY BAD piece of ADR between her and Sansa, I loved everything in her performance (but doing voice over ADR is particularly tough for untrained actors). Bran looks good, Sansa looks good. I really like the look of Robb. Jon is the only one with a terrible look, but that may just because I never pictured him with poofy curly extravagant hair, Waymar Royce's look more closely matches what I think Jon looks like.

I love the visual way they introduce Arya and Sansa. We cut from the archery, to an interior tracking shot. the camera moves around Sansa--ho is happily sewing away to the praises of Septa Mordane--to reveal Arya who looks very unhappy and bored and who perks up to the sounds of arrows and laughter outside. This one shot, coupled with the transition to Arya showing up Bran in the next sequence, establishes the contrast between Arya and Sansa and Arya's mischievous spirit.

The highlights of the episode for me, though, was everything on Pentos with Viserys and Dany. I felt these scenes were the best written and acted and directed moments of the episode and were pretty much without flaw. I even liked the controversial wedding night. But then I've always felt that the book wedding night was a little too romantic in contrast to the harshness that Dany experiences from him after the wedding night. I think the way they handled the Khal's "no" lines got much of the scene without compromising future development of her character. It's not rape by westerosi understandings and its not consensual by our understanding, I feel the way it was portrayed got more at the tragedy of the moment, that this is what wedding nights were like for women, or royalty and underscores the limitations and strictures most women lived under in pre-modern times. We're getting our first taste of how the series will rip the princess myth to shreds. If anything the book romanticized things a little too much, but it has the opportunity to do that by letting us in to Dany's intimate thought processes leading up to the marriage consummation, a luxury the filmed medium doesn't allow for.

I liked the look of all the sets and costumes and locations, it very much matched the "Lion in Winter" look I had given everything in Winterfell and Castle Black in my mind. The production design is incredibly well done. I loved the little background touches like the mantle of dripping candles. The one exception is that the Heart Tree looked built, with fake, sewn on leaves. Thats the only place the execution seems slightly off to me, that and I imagined Winterfell to be bigger, at least the outerwall much bigger, in order to encompass a small godswood rather than a godsgrove. But none of these things really matter to me, I point them out as individual difference in how I pictured things but it's just a different perspective, I don't see it as getting it "wrong"

I had always imagined "the things I do for love" to be said regretfully to Bran, having it said to Cersei makes sense, and certainly lends a different tone to the scene, and I really like the different approach, not what I'd imagined but excellent nonetheless.

Overall I absolutely loved it, and aside from the Others I don't feel like they got a single thing that matters wrong, it's pretty much as perfect as I could have hoped for.

[atm_grifter]

Hello all. First post to the forums. To preface things, let me say I've been an advocate of the series since 1998, and am proud to say I've turned close to 30 people on to the series, each one, of course, becoming an addicted fan. This series coming to HBO has been a hope I've had for some time. So far, I'm quite pleased.

However, I think an interesting thing to discuss are the changes we've noticed, either in plot or character, that could have some significant effects on either plot or memorable scenes. I count two that stand out to me:

First, Tyrion being introduced as a whore-monger. While I don't think this is something that the writers can't handle in terms of steering the characters back towards their representation in the book, it still seems a challenge. This is in particular regard to Shae. In his first meeting with her it is quite clear that Tyrion is somewhat honorable, and later, once in King's Landing, that he holds his monogamous relationship to be important to maintain. Put simply, he loves her. In the book, this was easy to believe, because Tyrion was never set up to be so lecherous, but now the writers present themselves with a problem to solve so the viewer isn't taken aback, should the writers follow what was laid out in the book.

Secondly, the lack of significant scarring on the Hound's face. I've already had a couple of conversations with people who didn't realize that the Hound was actually the one speaking with Tyrion at one point (making the remark about paying for women). It's quite clear that it is, since A) it's the same actor who raised the face guard of the hound helm (which, even then, you could tell he wasn't scarred nearly enough), and B) his scalp was at least "scarred" (missing hair). This is hugely problematic for the encounters between him and Sansa (and potentially others). My guess currently, is that those scenes will simply be excised, which actually may be fine.

Anybody agree or disagree, or think of any other issues that should be interesting to see how they get resolved due to their noticeable difference.

[Isabella Stark]

They could've done some simple things, like colored contacts, to make Viserys & Dany's eyes the right color; same with Tyrion, with his one black eye & one green eye and his blond hair that's almost white, in curls down to his collar.

.......

And I swear, if I here "white walkers" one more time I'm going to scream! They are the "Others" 99% of the time! GRRR!

They tried purple contact lenses for Viserys and Dany. Apparently they were extremely uncomfortable for the actors, so they dropped it.

Also, I've read that due to "Lost" also having a group of people known as "the Others," the producers decided to go with "White Walkers."

[Isabella Stark]

Also, regarding Tyrion's hair color, speaking as someone who's tried to go platinum blond- it's really hard to go that blond and not look like crap. You need just the right skin tone, and Peter Dinklage (Tyrion) does not have it. Going any blonder with him would have looked terrible.

[Papa Manderly's Meat Pie]

And then we run into the Uruk-hai

LOL. Perfect description of "the Others".

Jon is the only one with a terrible look, but that may just because I never pictured him with poofy curly extravagant hair.

Yeah, I hate that look too.

Overall I absolutely loved it, and aside from the Others I don't feel like they got a single thing that matters wrong, it's pretty much as perfect as I could have hoped for.

Definitely. We can all nitpick about the details, but in the grand scheme of things, most of those don't matter. If it makes for a better TV show I'm all for changing the bookthings.

A good example is The Shining. Kubrick's Shining is a masterpiece, a brilliant example of film-making. Too bad it is radically different from the book.

There was also a made for TV remake (by Mick Garris) of The Shining that King got behind because he was mad at all the liberties that Kubrick took with the story. The result is an utterly ridiculous piece of crap. It adheres closely to the book, but just comes across as stupid.

I would much rather have a Kubrick Game of Thrones than a Garris version which adheres more closely but loses the essence of the story.

Edited because I don't want to change the actual books.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

My only complaint: Why did they have to have Jaime and Cersei going at it doggie style fully clothed?? That was literally the only kind of sex we saw all episode... I would have liked to see more of a contrast to the Dothraki stuff. They are actually lovers not just fuck buddies... Should have been more sensual...