[BOOK SPOILERS] EP101 Discussion, Mark II

[Brienne the Beauty]

I wonder how they'll play out the whole Sansa bit if it goes that far. I can a traumatised mid twenties man without much of a real childhood being so interested in Sansa without it getting super creepy (sepcially with how mature the Stark kids are), but a 40 year old dude?

It's damn creepy in the books, too. Much as I think their "relationship" is very interesting I think it's meant to be creepy. Sandor has all sorts of issues. It's not a sweet romance like between Robb and Jeyne. It is meant to have a tension of "wrongness" to it.

[AquariumDrinker]

There are at least four Others in that shot that I count...

Having seen 15 minute preview on a small TV, I was surprised by the number of Others in the scene... almost giddy even :)

[Papa Manderly's Meat Pie]

There are at least four Others in that shot that I count. There's the one with the sword beheading Gared, the other (#2) behind Gared that you saw, a third one behind and to the left of #2, and a fourth one to the right of #1. The third one's hard to make out in the single frame but it's definitely there, and the fourth one is easy to see if you know where to look.

I'm not sure what you think it is- not Ser Royce, I don't think. Just about a split second earlier (before Gared falls to the side) you can see Other #2 holding another ice sword.

I just meant is that actually an Other or am I seeing things.

I didn't even see the other Others. I really need to watch this in HD.

Also, I think the book is closed on how successful this adaptation is. HBO just renewed it for a second season. http://grrm.livejournal.com/211736.html

If they did that after just the first episode, then I am really excited for the future of this endeavor.

[Axon]

Oh, it's a great adaption. I just think fans believed it was going to shatter all opening records. Not so. It did extremely well, though it did not best Boardwalk Empire (though I don't think anything will for quite some time). I think the series will ultimately average a 3 rating per episode, because it only gets better from here.

[Tywin's bastard]

Oh, it's a great adaption. I just think fans believed it was going to shatter all opening records. Not so. It did extremely well, though it did not best Boardwalk Empire (though I don't think anything will for quite some time). I think the series will ultimately average a 3 rating per episode, because it only gets better from here.

Yeah, Boardwalk Empire had a pretty strong draw in Scorsese directing the pilot so it's of course hard to beat. It's like if GoT would have had Peter Jackson directing it's pilot.

[Dragonfish]

There isn't much more to see, really. http://i54.tinypic.com/b3v0y0.png shows more of the mural, but it's in less focus than before.

Thanks again. Although it is really out of focus, it looks to me like the water is rising up behind the ships. Could be the Doom, or it could be my brain playing tricks on me.

[wolverine]

It's damn creepy in the books, too. Much as I think their "relationship" is very interesting I think it's meant to be creepy. Sandor has all sorts of issues. It's not a sweet romance like between Robb and Jeyne. It is meant to have a tension of "wrongness" to it.

Ok, did I miss something in the books? I don't remember any romance between the two. I haven't read the books in 6 years, or however long ago it came out, but all I remember is Sansa feeling a bit sorry for him and maybe thinking he is not a complete monster.

So did they kiss, express their love for each other, do anything that constitutes a romance? I didn't know that feeling pity/understanding/compassion for someone meant they were romantic.

[Jon M]

Yes, FUCK shows up all the time in the books. You're self-censoring.

If you're really having a hard time with them changing completely unimportant details chances are there will never be a show that will work for you as far as this goes. If it bothers you that Dany doesn't have purple eyes or that they don't show a 13 year old getting naked and being raped on television, you're likely not going to be happy.

I haven’t read the books in a couple of years. I just started AGoT again. It certainly doesn’t appear as often as it’s used in the show.

And I didn’t say I’m having a hard time with them changing those details, just that they could’ve done it better.

As for the last comment, I won’t even dignify that with a response.

My problem with the post-wedding scene, which I just finished reading yesterday, is that Dany was not raped in the book. The scene ends with her saying “yes” and guiding his hand down and finger in. Them not taking that scene out all the way in the show ultimately takes away from Drogo’s character.

This thread includes Book Spoilers, and I was the one who brought up the topic of iron swords vs. spears in the show, because I feel that the iron swords in the book are important. So. Tangential maybe, but not irrelevant, in my opinion.

That was the fact that started the little discussion we were having. JackintheBeanstalk felt that there might have been a significance of the swords in relation to the Others and that this change would in that case not work with that.

Edit: Apparently I can't read and missed that Jack had already responded to this.

Gotcha. Like I said, I didn’t have the time or energy to read the previous 10 pages or the previous thread.

If you look closely, you'll see that it's great swords, not spears. They are held upright like spears, not over the knees as in the book, but they are still swords.

I will have to look at that again, thanks for catching that & letting us know!

Seriously? The word is used on numerous occasions, by multiple characters. The "40,000 men and their horses" line defines Viserys as well as any other line of dialogue he says. You don't remember that from the book?

I had forgotten about that scene until I read it yesterday.

They tried purple contact lenses for Viserys and Dany. Apparently they were extremely uncomfortable for the actors, so they dropped it.

Also, I've read that due to "Lost" also having a group of people known as "the Others," the producers decided to go with "White Walkers."

I forget how uncomfortable contacts are if you don’t normally wear them. That makes sense!

I thought about that regarding “Lost” but I think if they had just identified them in the opening, it would’ve been ok. It’s not like the makers of “Lost” could’ve copyrighted it. 

Also, regarding Tyrion's hair color, speaking as someone who's tried to go platinum blond- it's really hard to go that blond and not look like crap. You need just the right skin tone, and Peter Dinklage (Tyrion) does not have it. Going any blonder with him would have looked terrible.

That makes sense too. I can see that there are certain things like that which can’t be done for good reasons and these are small details, but they would’ve added to the show for me. At least they sort of forked Illyrio’s beard 

My only real concern is with opening scene (prologue of the book). I just can't figure out why they changed the scene from the book. Not only do we not have the dramatic scene of the kid hiding in the tree while the Others kill the rest of his scouting party, but we're left with a seriously un-explained escape by the kid.

In the pilot... the kid is on his knees within 10-15 feet of the Other. How did he escape sure death at the hands of the Others? Oh well.

I agree. I think the opening was entirely too long for as little as they did with it. But then, many scenes have been changed in ways that don’t make sense and seem unnecessary.

-- Kingsguard armor didn't bother me as much as it does some others, apparently. Hound's helm is pure awesome.

-- This episode was too short. A lot of things seemed rushed. Should have been 90 minutes, ending at the same place but filling in some of the scenes more.

-- Robb seems completely personality-free. Hopefully he has one somewhere. Rickon is completely invisible (although to be fair he's basically invisible in the books too).

I mostly liked the Kingsguard armor, though it certainly wasn’t white. The only thing there that I noticed was that Jaime wasn’t wearing his white cloak. There was nothing in the opening that showed he was part of the Kingsguard. Maybe it’s not relevant yet, but why not just start it off right?

I also loved the Hound’s helm!

I agree that it was too short. A lot of premieres are longer and they could’ve done a lot with the extra time. They left out a lot of stuff that will be missed and included stuff that was either irrelevant or unnecessary.

I think the kid playing Rickon is just right. I agree with you on Robb, though. I think they got the look right (unlike Jon) but he’s got no personality and the actor, like many, doesn’t seem comfortable with his character.

Regarding "fuck", it shows up five times in AGOT: Viserys threatening to let the khalasar have their way with Dany, Arya talking to city guards outside the Red Keep ("I want to fuck the queen myself, for all the good it does me"), Littlefinger goading Ned by asking if he "fuck with the King's ---", Tyrion raging against Mort the jailor in the Eyrie, and a dying Robert exasperated with Ned ("Ah, fuck you, Ned, I killed the bastard, didn't I?")

Thank you! I’ve only run into the first one so far in my re-read of AGoT. I guess the main thing I was getting at is that it’s not used nearly as much in the books as it was in the first episode, which you just verified. I know it’s HBO, but that doesn’t mean you have to include it in every other line, especially when it adds nothing to the show.

In the book, I think it comes as less of a surprise, because Bran is listening to Jaime and Cersei talk without seeing them at first, and from the conversation, you can figure out who it is and put two and two together - there are two pages of conversation and a few incriminating noises before Bran actually sees them, which has a different effect than the OMG SEX of the show. Although the scene isn't extremely sensual in the book, it shows a lot more about the kind of relationship that they have - obviously something that would have taken too long on TV, but nonetheless, one that has a much different and more personal tone.

A lot of what was said during this scene in the book they moved to the scene where Jaime and Cersei were looking down on Jon Arryn’s body. I don’t understand why they even included that scene, since it was unnecessary and didn’t appear in the book.

And Hodor is FAT. I imagined him thin, but I dont remember the book description.

I haven’t gotten to the description of Hodor in the book, but I also thought was more “lean & mean” in the book and younger as well.

I'm pretty sure you'd miss the face in the godswood tree in standard definition. Even in HD, it's subtle.

I was watching in HD and the only reason I saw the face is because I looked for it. Even looking for it, it took me a minute to find it.

Didn't someone straight out mention the hart/direwolf omen in the book?

I agree, it would have made more sense if she said it before Dany stepped into the pool.

No one mentioned that omen in the book, as far as I recall. I just passed that scene in the book and it hasn’t been mentioned yet.

I don’t know what’s up with how this forum software works, but it’s driving me a little nuts. When I’m typing it keeps jumping to the top and “Multi-quote” only works one page at a time. Annoying!

[AquariumDrinker]

Didn't someone straight out mention the hart/direwolf omen in the book?

No, it is not voiced, but it is mentioned that people took it to mean something by how they reacted to the bit of antler. I didn't catch the significance of it until I did a reread.

[Myrish swan]

Okay, I've got a minor, and sort of silly question regarding Theon.

During the shaving scene with the three boys, Jon asks Rob and Theon why they have to get all fixed up (shaven?) for the king. Theon then makes a sly comment that he suspects its for the queen. And then he says something about the queen, but I really couldn't make it out. Did anyone else manage to catch his line there?

I know its ridiculous to be dwelling on small things like this, but its just that Theon got so few lines, I'm kind of dwelling on every one. Also, I'm really curious to see what Theon would say about Cersei...

[Edda van Heefmstra Ruston]

"I hear she's a sleek bit of mink." Or something like that. Definitely something "mink".

[Ferrum Aeternum]

I had forgotten about that scene until I read it yesterday.

That's cool. I've reread the series 3 times and there are "well known" lines I don't always remember verbatim either. That one just stuck out to me for whatever reason.

I mostly liked the Kingsguard armor, though it certainly wasn’t white.

I'm glad Kinsguard armor isn't *quite* white - enameled, solid white armor would draw derisive comparisons to Imperial stormtroopers from Star Wars. Sometimes things "read better" than they look in real life. On a GoT thread at another forum I frequent (unrelated to ASOIAF) a guy was complaining about Jaime's armor not being "golden" enough. Shiny golden armor is fun to read about but would probably look silly or cheap on a TV screen.

I think the kid playing Rickon is just right. I agree with you on Robb, though. I think they got the look right (unlike Jon) but he’s got no personality and the actor, like many, doesn’t seem comfortable with his character.

This is very common in pilot/premiere episodes in any genre. The actors don't really know exactly how to play their characters yet, especially if they don't have many lines. I expect everyone's performances to improve as the show progresses. That's one reason I haven't gotten my drawers in a twist over too many minor foibles thus far. It's just ONE episode and there are at least 19 more to go (hopefully many more than that).

As to Richard Madden as Robb, his performance didn't do much for me either with the notable exception of the look he gave Joffrey (making eyes at Sansa) in Winterfell's courtyard as the royal party rode in. Quite amusing and befitting a protective older brother.

A lot of what was said during this scene in the book they moved to the scene where Jaime and Cersei were looking down on Jon Arryn’s body. I don’t understand why they even included that scene, since it was unnecessary and didn’t appear in the book.

It was important for a number of reasons to non readers:

- Firmly established the Lannister family, particularly Cersei & Jaime, as important players in the series (remember, neither has a POV chapter in the first book)

- Drove home the death of Jon Arryn as an important event, and more than a passing mention from Cat to Ned in the next scene

- Explained what the "Hand of the King" is and began to sketch the outline of the power structure in King's Landing

- Hinted that something sinister was afoot and that Jon Arryn had knowledge of it

All these are essential points to establish with the audience. I thought the scene was executed brilliantly as it was 100% exposition but didn't immmediately appear that way. Like it or not, TV series need expository scenes like this for the benefit of those not familiar with the source material (or don't remember every detail ;)).

I haven’t gotten to the description of Hodor in the book, but I also thought was more “lean & mean” in the book and younger as well.

Younger yes, but I envisioned him being a very large, burly man, obviously strong. Build-wise I think Kristian Nairn is perfect. His age (34) is also fine considering all the aging-up that was done with other characters.

[Eponine]

I agree with you on Robb, though. I think they got the look right (unlike Jon) but he’s got no personality and the actor, like many, doesn’t seem comfortable with his character.

Well then that's true to the book at least.

I think that most people would be hard pressed to put together any real description of Robb's personality from the first book. In the first half, he behaves like almost any 16 year old boy would, and in the second half, we only see him from Bran's POV, he spends most of his time trying to behave like a man, and we are somehow supposed to believe that he grows up so fast that he unites all his father's lords to do what he wants, although he's not given all that much dialog. IMO, none of that adds up to a solid personality though.

[Original Ned's Bones]

I don't know if this has been mentioned, but I saw the Hound in the episode 2 clip. For those of you who were disappointed in his appearance (like me), he looks much much better in the next episode. They didn't take it to the burned up Two-Face level, but his hair and scars look better and he looks pretty rugged. No sound bite yet, but he looks more like our tormented "fuck your ser" character that we all love.

[Rodgex]

I don't know if this has been mentioned, but I saw the Hound in the episode 2 clip. For those of you who were disappointed in his appearance (like me), he looks much much better in the next episode. They didn't take it to the burned up Two-Face level, but his hair and scars look better and he looks pretty rugged. No sound bite yet, but he looks more like our tormented "fuck your ser" character that we all love.

That is quite good, I was disappointed that all he seemed to have was a hound shaped helmet, so hopefully we will see his scars!!!

[Rinso]

I see that there are many discussions around here. I also see that I'll beat a dead horse with some of my points, but I feel like I want to share my opinion, even though nobody but me cares and that it probably won't be new or fresh.

So, the easiest way is to do a simple list of the things I liked and the things I disliked, and then give my brief opinion.

Things I liked:

- The acting. Not a single performance I dislike so far, although we didn’t saw much from everyone involved and there are characters that are yet to appear.

I’d classify Mark Addy’s Robert and Nikolaj Coster-Waldau’s Jaime as the ones that made the biggest impression on me.

Mark Addy is Robert, the guys and gals who doubted him at first clearly have judged wrong. From his drunkenly flustered face, through his rough rowdy laugh, to his energetic body-language that doesn’t quite fit his body and shows that he once was a drasticly different person, he embodies what Robert is.

As for Nikolaj Coster-Waldau, the “Things I do for love” scene completely sold me, and I can’t wait to see more of him in the next episodes and seasons. The way he looked at Bran and said “Ten?” was brilliant, so much was conveyed into this simple one line. The look in his eyes and his voice said “My whole life I was labeled the Kingslayer, a liar and an oathbreaker, with shit for honor. And now I’m gonna kill a 10-year old kid because he saw me fuck my sister. What’s next?” The guy nailed Jaime for me, and I heartily forgive his unmatching-my-imagination look.

Tyrion and Cersei were also cool, but I’ll reserve my gushing for the second episode, when we should see more of them.

Ned was Ned – cold-blooded, stoic, a bit angsty, can’t ask for more. Michele Fairley’s Catelyn acted and behaved exactly like she should, even though there were considerable changes about her attitude towards Ned’s future Handship and I’m interested to see more of her.

The kids were all cool, but there’s more to see, one episode wasn’t enough to make any judgement whatsoever. We got good look at Jon, Bran and Sansa, but Robb and Arya needed more spotlight. Next episode will amend that.

- I’m in love with the intro. The bas-reliefs surrounding the stylistic sun and depicting the various events of the setting ‘s history were gorgeous. Especially loved the wolf, the lion and the stag killing the dragon – there’s the War of the Usurper explained symbolically in less than 10 seconds. And, considering that David & Dan have had spoilery conversations with GRRM, it’s save to say we finally saw what the Doom of Valyria is, methinks :read:

- The show is faithful as hell. Yes, it doesn't look like I imagine it when I read about it in the books. Yes, there are new scenes, and some of the canonic ones are slightly changed in one aspect or the other. But the spirit of ASoIaF is here. David & Dan are truly fans of the books, it's not just a stunt, and it shows.

Things I didn’t like:

- The “wedding night” of Dany and Drogo. Why did they change it? When I read the books for the first time, the way that Drogo treated Dany, with equal parts seduction and reassurance, made huge impression to me and it showed me that he wasn’t the monster she initially precieved him to be. In the books, he took his time and was very tender and considerate; here, he just undressed her and bent her over, and that was it? He basically raped her here. I think that his gentlemanly behavior in their wedding night was an important factor about how their relationship began, and I was sad to see this changed.

- I’m still “so-so” on the Prologue and its Brownish-Blackish Walkers. I watched the episode with my father, he’s read the books, and he couldn’t recognize them as the Others. Nuff' said.

- Also, the Dothraki just don’t look right. Not only are they not appropriately Mongolian-like, but they are also inconsistent – some of them are clearly Caucasian, with lighter skin and fairer hair while others are almost completely Africanoid. They definitely dropped the ball with the Dothraki look in my eyes. Though, I admit, their language sounds cool.

- Almost no direwolf presence, apart from Summer. There was scenes where there was room for Nymeria and Ghost, at least, to be shown and for the viewer to see that there is an actual bond between Ned’s kids and the wolf pups. That can be fixed in the next episode, and probably will be, but still.

Also, the symbolism of the stag and the wolf that killed each other was completely unexplained, and would have been good to be otherwise. There is the hope that people might catch the subtext as the season progresses, though I have doubts.

- I think that, so far, the show isn't very friendly to non-readers. It's not really their fault, though. They have put a decent amount of infodumps, and have tried really hard to make all of this understandable to people who haven't read the books, but the sheer amount of characters that are introduced with their agendas and personalities is stunning. Ned, Catelyn, Jon, Sansa, Bran, Jaime, Tyrion, Cersei, Viserys, Daenerys, Illyrio, Drogo... and those are only the guys with more lines and screen time, there are as much secondary ones. To a non-geek who hasn't read the books, it's probably a mess of guys with greasy hair and furry cloaks.

So, all in all? Yay or nay? Absolutely yay. Yes, my complaints are more, but they are also more meaningless. The important things - acting and faithfulness are nailed (or, at least, nailed enough, there is a tiny bit more to be desired in the faithfulness stuff). I watched it and I loved it, and I want more.

[Kalbear]

- The “wedding night” of Dany and Drogo. Why did they change it? When I read the books for the first time, the way that Drogo treated Dany, with equal parts seduction and reassurance, made huge impression to me and it showed me that he wasn’t the monster she initially precieved him to be. In the books, he took his time and was very tender and considerate; here, he just undressed her and bent her over, and that was it? He basically raped her here. I think that his gentlemanly behavior in their wedding night was an important factor about how their relationship began, and I was sad to see this changed.

It was changed because they weren't going to spend a couple minutes on a porn scene that they can address later on in a slightly modified but more expedient way. It's also going to play pretty badly in a cheesy romance novel way if you can't see Dany's thoughts and all you see is her first being unsure then totally into it from this huge guy she barely knows, doesn't speak the language and doesn't want to marry. On TV that would almost certainly not have worked.

[Rinso]

So simply undressing her then bending her over to have your way with her is better and less cheesy?

[AquariumDrinker]

So simply undressing her then bending her over to have your way with her is better and less cheesy?

They cut out the picnic due to time issues

[Xenophon]

- Also, the Dothraki just don’t look right. Not only are they not appropriately Mongolian-like, but they are also inconsistent – some of them are clearly Caucasian, with lighter skin and fairer hair while others are almost completely Africanoid. They definitely dropped the ball with the Dothraki look in my eyes. Though, I admit, their language sounds cool.

...

- I think that, so far, the show isn't very friendly to non-readers. It's not really their fault, though. They have put a decent amount of infodumps, and have tried really hard to make all of this understandable to people who haven't read the books, but the sheer amount of characters that are introduced with their agendas and personalities is stunning. Ned, Catelyn, Jon, Sansa, Bran, Jaime, Tyrion, Cersei, Viserys, Daenerys, Illyrio, Drogo... and those are only the guys with more lines and screen time, there are as much secondary ones. To a non-geek who hasn't read the books, it's probably a mess of guys with greasy hair and furry cloaks.

Re. the Dothraki, I think HBO has deliberately re-envisioned them as less racially homogeneous than in the books. Which actually makes sense if you think of them as like the Mongols, conquering and absorbing various peoples (it also makes Drogo's choice of wife less unusual). I agree, though, that the execution wasn't great. The combination of the anything-brownish casting with crazy costumes made them look straight out of a B-movie, IMO.

Re. new viewers, I also thought it would be too much, but neither my wife, nor my friend had much trouble with it. They didn't follow everything, but they got enough for the outlines to be clear.