[BOOK SPOILERS] Episode 105 discussion

[thorny throne]

Cers/Robert - thumbs down for me. The raise of the cups and the mutual chuckle over their never-ending hate were good, I imagined they had many talks like this through-out their relationship. However, I REALLY dislike it when they suggest Cers had real feelings for Robert. Jaime was her one and true love, always.

[Spionkop]

Cers/Robert - thumbs down for me. The raise of the cups and the mutual chuckle over their never-ending hate were good, I imagined they had many talks like this through-out their relationship. However, I REALLY dislike it when they suggest Cers had real feelings for Robert. Jaime was her one and true love, always.

In the books Cersie says she tried to love Robert once but saw him with another woman and that crushed any flowering fondness.

[Tywin's bastard]

Cers/Robert - thumbs down for me. The raise of the cups and the mutual chuckle over their never-ending hate were good, I imagined they had many talks like this through-out their relationship. However, I REALLY dislike it when they suggest Cers had real feelings for Robert. Jaime was her one and true love, always.

Not quite correct. She developed some feelings for Rhaegar Targaryen, and when he died those feelings seem to have been projected on Robert for a short while, before their marriage, because she remembers that she found him handsome and valiant (or something in those lines, as I don't remember exactly) and seemed to think it could work.

[Abaddon]

Why the quote around "think"? We know how good he is in the books, or at least how good he isn't, because George has said so. ;)

To be pedantic, we know what George was thinking when he wrote the books. Whether he adequately communicated those thoughts on the written page is another matter, and it seems like there are quite varying opinions on that.

[thorny throne]

In the books Cersie says she tried to love Robert once but saw him with another woman and that crushed any flowering fondness.

Didn't she say whatever she felt for him (mostly wetness between her legs, cause he was handsome, etc) faded away when he called her Leanna on their wedding day, never mind hurting her when they slept together?

I never thought she ever loved him, I agree he didn't give her a chance to do it, but I never thought she turned to Jaime for comfort, she turned to Jaime because they've been doing things together since they were kids.

[anemona]

Akward

My hubby who has not read the books asked me if Stark's foot would heal.

He will definetely wont be limping!!!! I replied

[thorny throne]

Not quite correct. She developed some feelings for Rhaegar Targaryen, and when he died those feelings seem to have been projected on Robert for a short while, before their marriage, because she remembers that she found him handsome and valiant (or something in those lines, as I don't remember exactly) and seemed to think it could work.

Okay, good point. Forgot about Rhaegar. Still, it felt out of character for me. I just feels like the whole incest thing with Jaime never been properly explained (for starters, that they've been doing this since childhood), this secret is the driving force of the entire first book, and we gotten maybe two scenes between them.

[thorny throne]

Not quite correct. She developed some feelings for Rhaegar Targaryen, and when he died those feelings seem to have been projected on Robert for a short while, before their marriage, because she remembers that she found him handsome and valiant (or something in those lines, as I don't remember exactly) and seemed to think it could work.

Okay, good point. Forgot about Rhaegar. Still, it felt out of character for me. I just feels like the whole incest thing with Jaime never been properly explained (for starters, that they've been doing this since childhood), this secret is the driving force of the entire first book, and we gotten maybe two scenes between them.

[Abaddon]

my only gripe is apparently one that isn't share by anyone else. The fight scenes seem extraordinarily sloppy for some reason. These are supposed to be the most bad assed of bad asses and they are wielding their swords like hollywood actors on their first run through the choreography. But like I said, I'm apparently the only one. I must have an image in my head that isn't accurate at all.

I think there are some unreasonably high expectations here. These are actors, not trained sword fighters. Buster Reeves mentions that he got maybe a WEEK to work with Kit Harrington and even less with some of the lesser role actors. The fights are also being designed to appeal to people who have very little knowledge of real sword fighting and have been raised instead with unrealistic Hollywood martial arts.

Simply put, if you know very much about the subject, you're not going to find it very realistic. Personally, I don't know a heck of a lot, and I find myself suitably entertained. But give me a ludicrous Hollywood tech explanation of some computer system/programming language/super hackers and I'll be cringing where most everybody else is just fine with it. YMMV.

[Spionkop]

Okay, good point. Forgot about Rhaegar. Still, it felt out of character for me. I just feels like the whole incest thing with Jaime never been properly explained (for starters, that they've been doing this since childhood), this secret is the driving force of the entire first book, and we gotten maybe two scenes between them.

Yes, But I've always read it as she knew it could never be a full relationship so was looking that strength of passion in someone she could be with properly.

[Abaddon]

As an example illustrating the above, I recently defeated a kendo sensei in a tournament. He was 5th dan, a sensei who's been practicing for close to 20 years or so (vs my 5 years of experience) with a lot of tournament experience (he also won quite a few of them), and has a very competitive style. In most circumstances, he would roflstomp me in less than a minute. But not only did I hold my own, I actually ended up beating him 2-1. [...] This does not mean I'm better than him. He would beat me probably 9 times out of 10, if not more often. But that doesn't mean it's impossible for me to beat him, or that it's impossible for me to put up a good fight if I do lose.

First of all, congratulations :).

Second, great point. And in addition, it's worth mentioning that Ned is fighting for his life, and the lives of his men. Desperation can make you reckless, but it can also drive you to heights of performance you can't normally reach. I really got the sense that Ned was fighting for his life, desperately, and Jaime was not (and was enjoying it far more). Ned seemed pushed to his limit, Jaime did not (to me).

I think it's fair to say that the Ned of the series is a better swordsman than the Ned of the books, but I don't think it's nearly as egregious a difference as it has been portrayed by some. And I definitely got the impression that Jaime was still better, if not earth-shatteringly so.

[legba11]

I don't understand the complaints about TV-Loras' body type. As somebody mentioned towards the end of the first thread, he's described as "slender as a reed". If this actor doesn't have the body type you pictured...well, that's fine, but you weren't picturing Loras as he was actually described in the books.

He would need some sort of muscle to be a knight. He has to fight while wearing 50+ lbs of armor, and he is quite good at it. We don't expect him to be a hulk, not at all, but he would need muscles to do what he does. He is built like a middle-school boy.

[Xenophon]

However, I REALLY dislike it when they suggest Cers had real feelings for Robert. Jaime was her one and true love, always.

Oh, I like TV-Cersei. I think this in particular makes her a much more interesting character than book-Cersei.

[john]

Convenient how Bran was learning the House words, Varys and Littlefinger were facing off like eight years after they first met and Robert and Cersei were discussing Lyanna only 17 years after they got married. It's almost like they knew they were on TV.

[Brewmaster]

Okay, good point. Forgot about Rhaegar. Still, it felt out of character for me. I just feels like the whole incest thing with Jaime never been properly explained (for starters, that they've been doing this since childhood), this secret is the driving force of the entire first book, and we gotten maybe two scenes between them.

That's one more scene between them than is in the first book. We only see Cersei and Jaime together through what Bran oversees in GOT.

And as the series goes on, it becomes more and more clear that Cersei doesn't care about Jaime the same way he does her.

Cersei and Jaime's twincest seems to have been more of an adolescent game to Cersei and one that she was willing to grow up and leave behind when she was going to marry Rhaegar.

[Gildenlow]

I assume they're going to make Ros/Roz the replacement for that woman Theon keeps around in A Clash of Kings, that Ramsay decides to take.

[Cereal Forel]

I think there are some unreasonably high expectations here. These are actors, not trained sword fighters. Buster Reeves mentions that he got maybe a WEEK to work with Kit Harrington and even less with some of the lesser role actors. The fights are also being designed to appeal to people who have very little knowledge of real sword fighting and have been raised instead with unrealistic Hollywood martial arts.

I don't care why it isn't convincing, just that it isn't. I'm also not looking for flourishes and whatnot, I just want their swings to have some weight behind them, know what I mean?

Luckily this series isn't dependent on good fight scenes, so as long as the Syrio Forel exit scene and the Red Viper / Mountain show down are sufficiently epic I'll be content :)

[Abaddon]

re the sky cells: one of the things I am happily appreciating is that they appear to be using Michael Komarck's art for inspiration for most things. Ned in the godswood, the sky cell, Arya and the skulls...I'm hoping that the dragon birth is as awesome as well.

I was ready to be all 'meh' but that dragon birth art is fucking awesome.

[Jaime L]

The Eyrie was not at ALL how I pictured it, but it's easy to see why they did it that way. They didn't have the time to devote to climbing for a night, and they wanted to convey just how out in the open it was. They definitely did well with the sky cells.

The scene with Lysa was about as well done as it could have been, given their lack of time to build any kind of relationship between Catelyn and her sister. It was plain that both Cat and Tyrion knew that Lysa had gone crazy.

Yeah, really thought the view from the sky cells and the great hall made it all come together - the former provided the sense of openness and sheer altitude, the latter with its grand and cold white blue veined marble and the coolness of the sunlight that filters in through it. The high altitude, off kilter feel (enhanced by Lysa's sheer creepocity) felt a little Shiningesque IMO.

[Arya The Assassin]

Things that I liked:

• The Eyrie: Loved the design and the sky cells. The shot were Tyrion peeks over the edge of his cell was great. In the book it took much longer to reach the top, and you had the feeling that it was a very perilous ascent, but for quite understandable reasons they simply couldn't spend that much screentime on this part of their journey. I also liked the rendering of The Eyrie in the opening title sequence.
• The Mountain vs The Hound: The fight was cool ... as long as it lasted. I think the fight should've lasted a bit longer, though. It felt rushed and lost some of its impact.
• Arya: "I'm not a boy!"
• The hill-tribe fight: Nice action-sequence, showcasing Bronn's skills with the blade (which will come in handy later...). Tyrion: "I'm willing if she is". LOL, straight from the book.
• The first dialogue scene with Barristan and Ned: I like the Barristan character and it also shows why Sean Bean is one of the best actors in the series. He seemed genuinely annoyed.
• The scene with Bran and Maester Luwin: I think Isaac's performance in this scene is very good.
• The swordfight between Ned and Jamie: They deviated a bit from the book here, but I don't really mind. In the book Jamie simply rides away, letting his men take care of Ned and his soldiers. In the TV series it's been suggested several times that Ned is a very skilled swordsman, so when Ned and Jamie confronted each other, I expected it to be an even fight. And it was, until one of the soldiers interferred. I suppose the writers chose to deal with the scene in this way to make things more dramatic, because in the book there's no duel between Ned and Jamie, and Ned injures himself when he falls under his horse.

Things that I was less excited about:

• The scene with Cersei and Robert: I had the impression that their relationship was much colder. I also felt that the scene was too long.
• The scene with Loras and Renly: I actually think a more subtle approach would've worked better here. And frankly speaking, I didn't feel that Gethin's (Renly) performance was particularly impressive. I didn't really have a problem with Loras' slender frame, though, because he's supposed to look that way (and it doesn't necessarily contradict the fact that he's supposed to be a skilled knight and jouster).

The Loras/Renly scene has been the subject of some debate ("were they gay or not?"). Here's an article about gay characters in GOT:

Gays Go Medieval in Upcoming "A Game of Thrones" Fantasy Series

Quote:

Renly is "gay in the books, too," says George R.R. Martin, the author of the bestselling novels. But online chatter suggests that not every reader picked that fact up. "I never meant to make it a mystery," Martin says. "I like to handle things subtly. I couldn't ever actually say, 'such-and-such is gay,' because, as I'm sure you know, the word wasn't invented until the 60s. And I'm talking medieval times, and I'm not going to say, 'so-and-so is gay.' But I thought it was pretty clear in context."

... "I do have lesbian characters in the books, and bisexual characters too," he adds. "The Red Viper of Dorne [in book three] is bisexual. I try to reflect a whole spectrum of humanity as best I can."

... "One of the luxuries of a show like this, one of the upsides to it, is you can really get a chance to dig in deep to the characters and explore who they and what makes them, and why they're doing the things they're doing," Weiss says. "We had two great actors, Finn [Jones] and Gethin [Anthony] who play Loras [Tyrell] and Renly [baratheon]. [Their being gay is] an integral part of who they are, their relationship to each other." Weiss gives credit to HBO for being allowed to explore the characters' sexuality. "One of the great things about [that channel] is that they give you the freedom to show full people, and sexuality is an integral part of who they are. It's really important to present their sexuality openly and honestly, even if they aren't able to in the [fictional fantasy] world in which they live."