[BOOK SPOILERS] Episode 105 discussion

[thorny throne]

That's one more scene between them than is in the first book. We only see Cersei and Jaime together through what Bran oversees in GOT.

And as the series goes on, it becomes more and more clear that Cersei doesn't care about Jaime the same way he does her.

Cersei and Jaime's twincest seems to have been more of an adolescent game to Cersei and one that she was willing to grow up and leave behind when she was going to marry Rhaegar.

It is possible I'm remembering things from later books (or, more correctly, more backstory as we hear it through Jahat ime's POV)

I don't think it was an adolescent game for her, only that she's a) too selfish B) cannot cope with the change in him.

[Abaddon]

A long time ago, in a thread that was locked far far away, Ran wrote:

Hey, geologist types, what do you figure that mountain [the Eyrie] is even supposed to be? I'm thinking some sort of karst limestone formation, with a bit of fantasy twist. I literally spent ten minutes researching and trying to figure it out for my recap.

I am not a geologist type. But it reminds me somewhat of a tepui.

[Kalbear]

I don't think it was an adolescent game for her, only that she's a) too selfish cannot cope with the change in him

He fulfills certain needs for her. She needs someone that she can trust implicitly, that will not betray her (even as she betrays him), that will worship who she is and know who she is. Cersei in the books is a narcissist, and fucking Jaime is as close to her fucking herself as she can get.

When Jaime starts actually thinking about jeopardizing her aspirations to go for love - that's when it all falls apart.

Cersei does, truly, love Jaime in the book. But it is not the devotion that jaime shows her, it is not the monogamy or the idolatry or the unquestioning love that Jaime has. Cersei would not throw a kid out a window to protect Jaime. (she'd happily throw a kid out a window for any number of other reasons, mind you, but she'd think about the value of it first.

[legba11]

It came up early in the thread (understandable to miss it in this mess).

The floor of the skycell is sloped, they show the water running out of it.

[The King's Foot]

Loved the episode - best so far.

Some seriously gasp-worthy moments:

- Gregor decapping the horse

- The Hound taking a knee right as Gregor's sword flies over his head - those two moments almost back to back were sheer awesomeness

- The revelation of the Eyrie - both in the opening credits and in the scene

Other things I loved:

- The looks exchanged between Cat and Tyrion in the Eyrie throne room. Absolutely brilliant acting. The "what the eff is going on here" vibe was so real, and the brief glance between the two was perfect.

- The Robert/Cersei and Varys/LF scenes: yes, they're not in the book. But they were enormously important to building up those characters in ways we can't get on screen from the inner monologues/observations of the POV chars in the books. Example: Though RB is a drunken lout in the books, there's enough memory/inner monologue from Ned that we know he was a legendary warrior in his youth and someone worthy of great respect and consideration. We can't get that on screen unless there are scenes with Robert acting serious and real. This scene also lets you see he isn't blithely ordering the hit on Dany because he hates all Targs since Rhaegar stole his twu wuv - he has considered the military problem of the Dothraki and concluded he's f*cked if they come across the narrow sea. Same beat on Cersei - she has added depth now that will make her all the more despicable when she offs RB and reveals she aborted/killed his trueborn son. Cersei in the show is different from Cersei in the books right now, and this episode was the first one where I started liking the changes.

- The fact that Loras looks like he should be in a boy band. I would have pictured him more muscular, but that's my only complaint. I always thought of a buff, plate-wearing Justin Timberlake. This Loras works fine for me, like he wandered over to the set from the Disney Channel where he just wrapped a guest spot on Hannah Montana or something.

Things I wasn't wild about but will learn to deal with:

- Overall the tourney was a disappointment in terms of the scale and grandeur of it. The payoff with Gregor/Sandor was great, but I never came close to seeing the enormous extravagance of the tourney, which is supposed to represent some of the gilded-age quality of Robert's reign. We're-in-debt-up-to-our-eyeballs-but-screw-it decadence. This looked like RB took Ned's advice and scaled the whole thing down. Oh well.

- Not enough explanation of the hill clans. Maybe we'll get that on Tyrion's exodus, but for this episode it was confusing as to who was attacking and why.

- Ned getting stabbed in the leg, not breaking his leg under his falling horse. I guess they wanted the ambush to happen right o/s the brothel, so Ned wasn't mounted yet. But I loved how this scene played in the books and merely liked it here. I guess this is just one of those scenes I wished they had taken straight out of the books, no changes whatsoever b/c it's so perfect.

- Theon's scene. Alright, I get it. The man is keeping the kraken down. Being a ward sucks. No one takes you seriously. No, really, I got it.

- Renly's portrayal (no, not the gay part). He's Robert's brother, he reads in the books like someone who is very martial and strong, but just doesn't take all that war stuff too seriously. Here, he's a dandy fop who looks like he could barely lift a longsword (no pun intended). I think he just needs to be a little tougher.

- No Jeyne Poole, at least not w/ Sansa at the tourney. If/when we get to season 4, we'll need a Jeyne Poole to come back out of the woodwork and pretend to be Arya (presumably after being plowed like a field in one of LF's brothels for a year or so).

I'm really fascinated by next week, as injured Ned should start having recollections of ToJ, right? I've been wondering all season how they're going to get us the historical backstory on R+L=J and the Robellion. Should be interesting. Maybe they should go Lost-style and starting featuring a relevant flashback at the opening of each episode.

[Bronn Stone]

- Ned getting stabbed in the leg, not breaking his leg under his falling horse. I guess they wanted the ambush to happen right o/s the brothel, so Ned wasn't mounted yet. But I loved how this scene played in the books and merely liked it here. I guess this is just one of those scenes I wished they had taken straight out of the books, no changes whatsoever b/c it's so perfect.

I wonder if the changes to the scene (daylight, no rain and no horse falling on Ned) were budgetary. And not wanting to risk a horse falling on Sean Bean. Honestly, I expected them to change Ned's injury even before I saw the scene play out.

I do want to praise them for the great horse work for Gregor's feisty stallion. That was handled well, though part of me cringes at what they might have been doing to the horse to get those reactions from it.

I hope they have smaller and steeper sky cells later on, though I'm not sure how they'd work them in. I also want Mord to say his important line, "is beans". Get that one wrong and you ruin the entire series.

[thorny throne]

Loved your list, the King's Foot.

This episode, though I frowned at a couple of things, was definitely great. As we keep saying this, it's a good sign. Can't believe only 5 more to go, this is just too brief, people barely had time to sink their teeth in it.

I'm totally with you on how cool it was to see the Eyrie in the opening credits. I love those little surprises.

[iheartseverus]

I do want to praise them for the great horse work for Gregor's feisty stallion. That was handled well, though part of me cringes at what they might have been doing to the horse to get those reactions from it.

Maybe that pretty white horse was a young mare in season. No need then to train a stallion how to react to that! :smileysex:

[shadow of death]

Addy as Robert is awesome. Wasn't there a scene in the book where robert knocks the Kingslayer on his but in the stands at the tournament. I was looking forward to that. I just love how he is really the only one that gives the lannisters a hard time, he actually enjoys it.

When he was trying to get his armour on I was trying to get a glimpse of his "hammer" I would love to see the show version of his weapon.

I really dont remember anywhere in the books that it is declared that Jamie is the greatest swordsman. They don't really say who the "best" is. Obviously Ned is pretty good, he survived many battles in the war.

What is up with those shields? They look like they couldn't block a spitball!

[QueenOfThorns]

My initial gut reaction to any scene that is not in the books is "yuck," however, I did like the Cersei/Robert scene after my initial reaction subsided. Mostly I can just understand why it was done. I mean, Robert dies not even 2/3 into AGOT, and in an season with only 10 episodes, we don't have much time left with the lovable lout. Non-readers need to learn more about his character and the Cersei/Robert dynamic. Either way, this scene was particularly superbly acted.

[Arya The Assassin]

This scene also lets you see he isn't blithely ordering the hit on Dany because he hates all Targs since Rhaegar stole his twu wuv - he has considered the military problem of the Dothraki and concluded he's f*cked if they come across the narrow sea

I think GRRM also showed a different, more 'humane' side of him in the book after Robert had been mortally wounded. Robert then said that he didn't want Dany to die, because she was only a child (just like Ned had told him). He believed it was the Gods who'd sent the boar to kill him, as a punishment. He might also have said this simply to make peace with Ned, of course, but it felt more like he was speaking from the heart, so to speak.

My impression is that Robert's judgment is often clouded by his constant drinking, but when he's dry he makes a lot more sense. I also feel that a lot of his loud talk and brash, boisterous behaviour not only has something to do with his alcohol problems, but that it's also a kind of 'facade'.

- Not enough explanation of the hill clans. Maybe we'll get that on Tyrion's exodus, but for this episode it was confusing as to who was attacking and why.

I felt that the explanation they gave in the TV episode was sufficient. Tyrion made it clear that the hill tribes or shadowcats would kill him if he tried to escape. Soon after they were attacked. I don't feel it's that important to know why they were attacked, because I think it's logical to assume that the hill tribes wanted to kill/get rid of them and steal their stuff.

[elmis]

Loved the ep, but I have a few nitpicks that I didn't like.

1. Littlefinger seemingly knows about Varys secret game? Doesn't that really change everything? I cannot believe that the book Varys would be SO sloppy.

2. They should have kept the Jamie vs. Ned scene exactly like the book.

"I want him alive"

<jump to where you have him alive, but after a fight seemingly to the death>

"I want my brother!"

<the leave him>

WTF? The scene is a lot more coherent and powerful in the books, and it shouldn't have been that hard to copy nearly play-by-play.

Also, that a politician who doesn't fight in tournaments and hasn't been in battle for the last 7 years is equally matched to Jamie Fucking Lannister is insane, at least if you take the books as a benchmark. Could be that they've given Ned a powerup in the TV series to make him fit the "hero" role better.

[Sword in the Morning]

What to say, what to say...

This was hands down my favorite episode thus far. I can see where the deviations from the book might irk some viewers, but really the whole presentation was dragging out oohs, ahs, and gasps from me the whole time.

Thoughts?

Renly. Him being gay with Loras is fine, but the way they presented the scene really changed his character. I also feel like a blatant manscaping/blowjob combo wasn't entirely necessary--the connection was there in the books, but you had to follow the breadcrumb trail. It was something that the more observant readers teased out of the woodwork (and was later confirmed by GRRM). It wasn't a scene that was called for due to it being confined to characters' thought process in the books, and I think the writers were trying to get an "OMGWTFBBQ" response out of the viewers. It worked, but at the cost of finesse.

They shoved a LOT of Lysa's crazy into one scene. They definitely got the point across. I'm not decided on whether I feel that's good or bad...but I LOVE-LOVE-LOVED the reaction shots between Catelyn and Tyrion.

I love the fight choreography in the show. They do an utterly fantastic job--avoiding the swashbuckling swordplay of most high fantasy in favor of realism--actual knights used their entire bodies in combat. They didn't just clash blades over and over... they would beat one another with the pommel, grapple, kick, anything it took to defeat the opponent. The choreography here is less flashy and more rough and tumble and brutal, and I love it.

The Tourney was underwhelming. 'nuff said.

Honestly, I like most of the added scenes. I feel like a lot of the complaints floating around this site are, for some reason "WHAT, why aren't the characters MORE ONE-DIMENSIONAL?!?!?" No. What I loved about the book series is the vast, all-encompassing gray areas. Whether you agree with the character or not, GRRM provides a reasonable framework for their actions, whether it's greed or lust or vengeance or pride. They're trying to make Cersei, a villain, into someone you can't just hate unreservedly because she's still a person. We don't allow any Saurons in this show, dammit.

Loved the episode, they really cranked up the intensity this week.

[Arya The Assassin]

I wonder if the changes to the scene (daylight, no rain and no horse falling on Ned) were budgetary. And not wanting to risk a horse falling on Sean Bean. Honestly, I expected them to change Ned's injury even before I saw the scene play out.

I believe it was for dramatic purposes, but that's just speculation on my part. I think it looks better (from a TV series standpoint) to have Ned and Jamie fight each other than having Jamie simply ride away. It wouldn't have been that difficult or dangerous to make it look like the horse fell on Sean (with a bit of smart editing), so I don't think that was the problem here.

[Xenophon]

I wonder if the changes to the scene (daylight, no rain and no horse falling on Ned) were budgetary. And not wanting to risk a horse falling on Sean Bean. Honestly, I expected them to change Ned's injury even before I saw the scene play out.

Yeah, there's no way they could actually put Sean Bean in a scene with a falling horse, and it would have looked ridiculous if he had suddenly put on a helmet or everything had been filmed from behind.

Also, given the changes they've made to Ned for the show, the scene worked really well. We finally get the Ned-Jaime showdown. And the soldier stabbing Ned in the back, both makes the Lannisters seem eeevil, but we also see that Jaime doesn't like it, which helps with making him both villainous and sort of sympathetic at the same time.

What is up with those shields? They look like they couldn't block a spitball!

Actual jousting shields were pretty small in RL. They're mainly supposed to give your opponents lance a good target to break on, not to actually protect a man in war.

[Morrigan]

First of all, congratulations :).

Thanks! :)

Second, great point. And in addition, it's worth mentioning that Ned is fighting for his life, and the lives of his men. Desperation can make you reckless, but it can also drive you to heights of performance you can't normally reach. I really got the sense that Ned was fighting for his life, desperately, and Jaime was not (and was enjoying it far more). Ned seemed pushed to his limit, Jaime did not (to me).

I think it's fair to say that the Ned of the series is a better swordsman than the Ned of the books, but I don't think it's nearly as egregious a difference as it has been portrayed by some. And I definitely got the impression that Jaime was still better, if not earth-shatteringly so.

Agreed. Too many people seem to think that in a real fight, you have one fighter completely dominating the other. It's true if one is pretty bad and the other is skilled or experienced, but a very skilled fighter (let's say like 9/10, one of the best) vs a moderately skilled one (let's say 5/10) will still be in danger. Also, anything can happen in a fight, you can die pretty fast when handling live blades after all.

Convenient how Bran was learning the House words, Varys and Littlefinger were facing off like eight years after they first met and Robert and Cersei were discussing Lyanna only 17 years after they got married. It's almost like they knew they were on TV.

They handled the Lyanna thing well, when Robert said "all this time you never asked about her, why now?". I have my own issues with that scene (well, regarding the whole TV version of Cersei really) but that wasn't problematic in itself. In fact, it's perfectly handled exposition.

[The King's Foot]

Also, that a politician who doesn't fight in tournaments and hasn't been in battle for the last 7 years is equally matched to Jamie Fucking Lannister is insane, at least if you take the books as a benchmark. Could be that they've given Ned a powerup in the TV series to make him fit the "hero" role better.

I've always wondered how good a swordsman Ned was. He beat Arthur Dayne, but he had 7-3 odds in his favor that day. By picking Sean Bean to play him, I feel the producers opted for the "older but still athletic and capable" look, kind of a marine corps colonel sort of thing. I get the sense Ned spent a lot of time training, otherwise he wouldn't be in as good of physical shape. So, even though he doesn't fight in tourneys, he's kept his skills (honed by actual warfare, unlike Jamie's "one set of robbers plus stabbing Aerys in the back" experience) sharp. I also think tourney fighting might be lot showier in some sense, and that Ned's skills are more brutal and direct - solely aimed at killing his enemy before he himself is killed. That's all conjecture on my part though.

[Cable]

Akward

My hubby who has not read the books asked me if Stark's foot would heal.

He will definetely wont be limping!!!! I replied

Underappreciated post, I laughed.

[Arya The Assassin]

Yeah, there's no way they could actually put Sean Bean in a scene with a falling horse, and it would have looked ridiculous if he had suddenly put on a helmet or everything had been filmed from behind.

They don't need to put Sean on a falling horse: They don't even need to show the horse falling :) Editing would create the illusion that the horse is falling. There are several ways you could do it. If you really wanted to show the horse falling, you could use this approach (for example):

- First of all, you use a stuntman :)

- Make the horse fall (using trained horses) in a long shot

- Insert closeup cuts to make it look like the horse is falling on the stunt man

- Insert closeups of Sean's face for dramatic impact

- Show the horse on the ground, from an angle so that it appears as if the horse is actually lying on top of the stuntman's leg.

You could also do it without showing the horse fall, although it would look less dramatic. You could achieve this effect by implying that the horse is falling. A common way to do this is to shoot the horse from a bottom up perspective (beginning of the horse's 'fall'), with closeups that suggests a falling horse and facial closeups of Sean. Then you cut to the long shot mentioned above.

[WordOf]

For some reason, this is the first episode i have serious beef with. Or some many reasons perhaps, where even to start...

Aright first.. Loras and Renly scene.

Loras looks far too much like a prepubescent girl. Yes, he's described as slender and all that in the book, but that much? Self-admittedly, he trains hard every day, for around a decade. Surely, even with his ectomorphic constitution, he ought to at least look more toughened, if not more muscular. Also, the felatio scene at the end was WAY over the top. The whole shaving thing was unambiguous a clue enough. More so than what the book offers (if my memory serves). I don't feel the need to be slapped in the face with it, just so we're sure to be completely convinced that they're gay. Where's sublety?

Which brings us to LF-Varys scene. A huge blunt, crude pissing contest between the two master web weavers of the realm. Sorry, if the realm's "trickiest" tricksters are on a level where they casually meet in the throne room[/] no less and trade less-than-veiled suggestions of secret knowledge of each other, then it doesn't really matter what anyone does, the realm is absolutely doomed. Again, subtlety please!

The fight scene between the Hound and Mountain was awesome stuff. I'd call it a bit too clumsy and slow, but hell, the choreography was stunning and i definitely prefer lumbering giant swings that are kinda required to make damage through all those layers of padding and armor.

I guess what my problem with swordfighting is the inevitable lack of skill and ability of the actors. It's simply unavoidable. No matter how much training they do, there's no real substitute for a lifetime of fighting caste lifestyle. The techniques may be authentic enough, given the western medieval fighting manuals information, but the manner of their execution cannot be. And i can't really think of a way to offset that.

The difference is made stark by the drastic differences between analysis of the few preserved medieval bones of person of the fighting caste and modern people.

The Jamie - Ned duel is... strange. There's somewhat conflicting information as to Ned's fighting ability. On one hand he's said to have fought Sword of the Morning. The old Kingsguard. On the other, that he barely survived, mostly due to his comarades and luck and favorable circumstance. His exploits in the rebellion are rather vague as to his personal proficiency, they seem to imply more of his ability as a commander. Add to that the fact that his fighting days are long over, that he hasn't fought in a decade.

Jamie on the other hand, is by many accounts, counted among the top swords in Westeros. He's in prime condition, in best years, also with enough experience not to be overmatched there.

And they are shown to have fought in a stalemate?

I just can't buy that.

Phew, all the venom is out of my system :D

For all the spit i spew, it's mostly just the difference between my interpretation of the story and what's shown. It's still best series i've ever watched. Even if this 5th episode blemishes the gleam somewhat.