[BOOK SPOILERS] Episode 105 discussion

[wolverine]

[*]A surprisingly candid and civilised discussion between Robert and Cersei. Who'd have thunk? It also showed that Robert is much more than a buffoon. He actually knows it would be suicide to meet a Dothraki army in the open field.

He also states how stupid it would be to sit and hide in their fortified cities letting the Dothraki rape and pillage the entire countryside as Jorah suggests.

I don't know that we ever actually hear alot about the Dothraki battle strategies but they are portrayed very similar to Mongolians IMO. If that is the case what are they supposed to do if they invade Westeros. When they say they should not meet them in the open field that they should choose non-open field places to fight or not fight them at all as Jorah suggests?

Generally the army where every warrrior is mounted gets to choose the place that they actually fight you at when you leave your castle. I am just curious what people think would be the best plan of defense for Westeros.

I for one agree with Robert that they can't just hole up in their castle waiting for them to get bored. But maybe I am an idiot. Are none of the free cities that they sack fortified?

[Huan]

EDIT - Looking at titles, is Episode 7 going to be when Ned gets beheaded? Aren't they taking a big risk by letting this episode get watched in advance a week early by the HBO Go (or whatever it is called) subscribers?

Episode 9 "Baelor" (as in Great Sept of) is more likely for Ned's execution. Episode 8 "The Pointy End" is probably when all hell breaks loose and Arya escapes. Episode 7 "You Win or You Die" probably contains the scene between Ned and Cersei when she delivers that line. Synopsis for episode 7 includes "An injured Robert takes pains to ensure an orderly transition at King's Landing" so I assume Robert's death will be either at the end of Episode 7 or beginning of Episode 8.

[DurararaFTW]

Re: Varys. Actually there are entire monologues from Varys about how his main motivation is the good of the realm. We really don't know yet what his motivations are. He may just believe that the Targs are what is good for the realm.

Since he doesn't have a POV chapter, I assume you mean monologues given for the benefit of whoevers he has as audience.

[Kalbear]

Bronn - a completely defined person is not what I"m talking about either. As an example, think about when we see Robb, Jon and Theon in the bathhouse. Theon's not exactly a stocky guy - none of them are. But they've all got at least some muscles.

[Cereal Forel]

Yeah, check around 3:45. That would be after they state that Lysa's behaviour is because she thinks the murderers of her huband are brought to her house and after they state that Varys is at any point just doing what is best for the Kingdom as he tries to convince Ned and Tyrion. It's not like Lysa killed her husband herself and Varys is at this point partial to Viserys' ascention to the throne, no matter what Ned does.

...

[DurararaFTW]

This is the book spoilers discussion, read the fourth book.

[Bronn Stone]

Oh, you mean like when GRRM said that Ned was the main character of the story? Behind the scenes snippets often don't contain the full truth due to the nature of spoilers. The showrunners can't bash Ned too hard, because they have to make him a convincing plot element.

And a second point, that is probably going to open up a whole 'nother can of worms that I don't even want to get into.

Listening to a creator's viewpoint on their work is almost NEVER a good idea. As odd as it sounds, the creator is often an unreliable narrator when talking about their work outside of the work itself. This is why millions of internet hours have been taken up defining "canon" as only what happens IN the books and whether or not authorial intent should be factored in.

It shouldn't.

If GRRM himself would do an interview and talk about a scene that isn't in the books, it wouldn't be canon, whether it was something ridiculous like a Ned-Cersei one night stand, or something perfectly believable like some new atrocity by Gregor Clegane. The same is true for D&D and the show-canon they're building, their interviews are meaningless and should not be seen as canon. (Although that doesn't mean its not INTERESTING)

As a further example, Loras and Renly would be gay in canon whether George answered the question or not, because its there in the book. Harry Potter's Dumbledore being gay is NOT canon, because it simply isn't in the books, and JK Rowling's interviews are no more canon than fan-fiction. Final example: HAN SHOT FIRST.

When you give terms your own definitions that don't correspond to how the rest of the world defines them, you are always right, but seldom actually communicating.

[Aganerral]

EDIT - Looking at titles, is Episode 7 going to be when Ned gets beheaded? Aren't they taking a big risk by letting this episode get watched in advance a week early by the HBO Go (or whatever it is called) subscribers?

hmm, that depends. The forums here only list 8 episode titles, but there are 10 in the season. I think episode 7 would have Cersei and Ned's chat in the Godswood...I think that's when the quote 'You win or you die' appears in the book. I'd imagine that the beheading would be end of episode 9/very start of episode 10. In terms of KL storyline, I'd guess that the next few eps cover:

Episode 6: Ned's recovery/Tower of Joy dream

Episode 7: Ned/Cersei conversation, Ned's deal with LF

Episode 8: Ned's arrest, Arya's escape (it's titled 'The Pointy End' :))

Episode 9: Ned's time in dungeon, Joffrey's 'forgiveness' of Sansa and reshuffling of kingsguard, closing on the steps of teh Sept either with Joffrey calling for Ned's head, or the actual beheading

[oneeye]

I think Theon's scene with the latest lovely whore was also setting up Tyrion's obsession with whores as they discussed him, and the scene later with Alayaya (?), even Tywin/and then Jaime, which is so crucial.

I like NMH (need more hound)

[Ser Warpechowski]

Ned Stark crossed blades with the Sword of the Morning and lived to tell about it. Or rather, lived to say infuriatingly little about it. He's no slouch when it comes to swordplay, and I would say he's definitely on the level where Jaime has to break out his A material in order to win.

Dunno, they were 7 against 3, and Im pretty sure his bannerman tried to protect him. Everyone says that The Sword of the Morning was the best knight in all the realms and Ned told Bran that the only reason he was alive was because of Rowland Reed, the other survivor from the 7. Im pretty sure Rowland used poison or some kind of trick, since it looks like that is what the crannognmen use.

[alguien]

Since he doesn't have a POV chapter, I assume you mean monologues given for the benefit of whoevers he has as audience.

So you admit that its a valid interpretation?

And do you mean the monologue he gave to the imprisoned Eddard Stark that would serve no ulterior motive whatsoever since Stark was either about to take the black or be executed?

[Jaime L]

I also loved that moment when Tyrion looked out of the sky cell and suddenly there was this yawning gulf, with clouds floating by below him. Both Bellis and I jumped straight up out of our chairs when it happened. It definitely transmitted a feeling of vertigo to the viewer.

Yeah, bringing the sky cells to the screen was one of the overwhelming successes of their design team thus far. They even got the sense of scale and vertigo with the pan out and even the sloping floor. Just another example of the series sweating every detail.

This series really hasn't missed much if any of the minutae from the books. Love it because as readers we know with confidence that they're going to try to tackle everything, they're not just going cut it out...so we can begin to wonder what future scenes hold (Ned's fever dream of the Tower of Joy, Riverrun, Walder Frey) with the knowledge that they're going to be as true to the books as humanly possible. Both a satisfying and frightening thought.

[Kalbear]

re the sky cells: one of the things I am happily appreciating is that they appear to be using Michael Komarck's art for inspiration for most things. Ned in the godswood, the sky cell, Arya and the skulls...I'm hoping that the dragon birth is as awesome as well.

[The Knight of Grasses]

Yeah, bringing the sky cells to the screen was one of the overwhelming successes of their design team thus far. They even got the sense of scale and vertigo with the pan out and even the sloping floor. Just another example of the series sweating every detail.

This series really hasn't missed much if any of the minutae from the books. Love it because as readers we know with confidence that they're going to try to tackle everything, they're not just going cut it out...so we can begin to wonder what future scenes hold (Ned's fever dream of the Tower of Joy, Riverrun, Walder Frey) with the knowledge that they're going to be as true to the books as humanly possible. Both a satisfying and frightening thought.

The Eyrie was not at ALL how I pictured it, but it's easy to see why they did it that way. They didn't have the time to devote to climbing for a night, and they wanted to convey just how out in the open it was. They definitely did well with the sky cells.

The scene with Lysa was about as well done as it could have been, given their lack of time to build any kind of relationship between Catelyn and her sister. It was plain that both Cat and Tyrion knew that Lysa had gone crazy.

[alguien]

Just read D&D's most recent interview on EW here.

Favorite bit:

DB: You also got these fantastic actors and you want to play them off each other. For instance, the scene with Varys and Littlefinger. We so fell in love with Aiden Gillen’s performance as Littlefinger and Conleith Hill playing Varys we wanted to give them some time together. You have these two master connivers, and perhaps with the exception of Tyrion, the two smartest guys in the story, you know they talk from time to time, so what do they talk about? It’s like the head of the KGB and the head of CIA getting together for a coffee break.

:thumbsup:

[Tywin's bastard]

Dunno, they were 7 against 3, and Im pretty sure his bannerman tried to protect him. Everyone says that The Sword of the Morning was the best knight in all the realms and Ned told Bran that the only reason he was alive was because of Rowland Reed, the other survivor from the 7. Im pretty sure Rowland used poison or some kind of trick, since it looks like that is what the crannognmen use.

But since everyone but Howland and Ned died it's not at all unlikely that Ned had to hold his own against Dayne a little while. Just because you're the best doesn't mean you beat everyone in 10 seconds. That's also further established in the show when Jaime praises Barristan for killing Simon Toyne with the best move he ever saw. Barristan was the greatest knight left after the war of the usurper and he still pointed out that Toyne's weakness (and thus undoing) was his stamina. So the great Ser Barristan won because he could fight hard for a longer time.

With that in mind I see no problems with Ned holding up against Jaime as he did. Ned looks to be trying hard, and doing fairly well, but we still see Jaime smile at his best attempts and only look to struggle when they have their test of strength.

And in the book, apart from some small tales about Jaime, we don't see him do anything impressive until the Whispering Wood. The book talks about that he's good but only shows him being unhorsed by the Hound rather violently.

[Rodgex]

The Eyrie was not at ALL how I pictured it, but it's easy to see why they did it that way. They didn't have the time to devote to climbing for a night, and they wanted to convey just how out in the open it was. They definitely did well with the sky cells.

The scene with Lysa was about as well done as it could have been, given their lack of time to build any kind of relationship between Catelyn and her sister. It was plain that both Cat and Tyrion knew that Lysa had gone crazy.

Ya, for me as well, the Eyrie was not as I imagined it, they aslo didn't show the Bloody Gate at the entrance to the Vale, which really disappointed me, but having said that, the scene where the pan to look at the Eyrie was fantastic, it was very well done, and the sky cells were done to perfection, I loved it. The scene where Lysa is breastfeeding Rob was also very well done, and clearly Lysa was very very insane.

Also seeing Arya hiding in the Dragon bones, and sneaking around the castle walls was brilliant.

I absolutely loved the scene with Littlefinger and the Spider. I'd say overall this has been the best episode for me so far. :)

[Ser Greguh]

The performance of the kid playing Sweetrobin reminds me of how damned lucky the producers got when casting the major kids in the story to find incredible young talents like Maisie, Sophie, and Isaac (of course, they do have the advantage of being older, but most actors of their age are still not very good). It was pretty grating. Apart from that minor blip the Eyrie scenes were totally flawless. I've heard some complaints that Lysa was "too crazy" but I think that in determining the appropriate level of crazy you start with the fact that she's breast feeding a six year old and let the rest just trickle down from there, and that seems like what happened (which was to my mind spot on).

[thorny throne]

OH yikes, just watching.

Lysa is CREEPY, they should have kept her fat. She looked like an unnatural creature. How will they ever 'sell' her and littlefinger, I don't know. SweetRobin was very good, though I imagined him a touch more sickly.

I'm a touch disappointed at the Loras/Renly scene, full body shaving, really? I never saw Renly as the gay sterotype, and I agree with whoever said he should have been a touch tougher than that. And Loras I imagined like Ethan from as queer as folk. Angelic looking, yet fierce. I didn't like his character, either. He should be young, brave, stupid and in love. Cutting Renly on purpose and encouraging him to make a play for the crown? Loras?!

[NW Deserter]

Finally got a chance to watch earlier today. Wow, this series just keeps getting better and better! I was not about to read all 26 pages of discussion but I have read the past several, I apologize if my random thoughts have been said multiple times already.

Good Stuff

-Lysa and Sweetrobin was disgusting, disturbing, and just plain weird...in a word, perfect! They went to extreme lengths to get this dynamic perfect and just how it was in the books. Shame that Lysa didn't get more screen time.

-The Eyrie in general was well-designed, the sky cell in particular was awesome. I like that they showed the rivulets of water flowing off the edge to give off that ever-so-slightly sloped impression that Tyrion makes note of in the book.

-Bronn was freakin' legit against the mountain clans, he fought like I pictured when reading that chapter. As seems to be a recurring theme with freshly introduced characters, he remains unnamed though. :(

-I actually really liked what they accomplished with the Renly/Loras scene. Renly's wussification did seem odd given what we see of him in the books, but we never got to see him alone or only with Loras, so it makes sense to me. And Loras looked pretty much like I imagined. I never pictured him as very defined at all.

-The Robert/Cersei scene had me drawn in more than any scene in this episode...I LOVE what they're doing with Cersei's character in the show vs. in the books.

-Like someone else said, I got the impression that Jaime was kinda toying with Ned in that last scene. Ned was sweating and battering at Jaime while Jaime was grinning a bit and didn't even seem that tired. Very well done scene except for how that one Lannister guardsman took it upon himself to stab Ned in the leg...it seemed like the director couldn't decide how to end the fight and so he wrote that in as a bit of a cop-out. Jory's death made me sad though. :(

-Arya talking to the guards was awesome. Love Maisie.

-The biggest positive about this episode was the lack of Dany and Jon, very good decision on the part of the writers. This was the most well-paced episode by leaps and bounds, I never felt like it was dragging at all.

Bad Stuff

-I want more Barristan!

-The LF/Varys scene was a bit too muddled...I'm not totally sure what they were trying to accomplish there. Leading off of that, seeing Varys in three scenes in a row (in three different locations) was a bit odd.

-Although Stannis was finally mentioned, I feel like his name should've been dropped a long, long time ago.

-I thought the Bran/Luwin scene was a bit clunky.

-A whole nother week to wait...but two episodes next weekend!! :D