[ADwD Spoilers] Young Griff

[cteresa]

The knight Rhaella had a flirtation with was Ser Bonifer Hasty, aka Bonifer the Good. In AFfC, Jaime notes he was once a noted tourney knight until something made him give up tourneys as a vanity and he turned pious. Now we know why.

Good, thank you!

I do think that pain of Barristan telling this story, well is suggestive. (i like suggestive. I like to mentally list the possible, even if unlikely)

[generic]

I doubt there was a swap of children before the sack. It's easy enough to find a dead child in a city being pillaged.

[corbaekin]

I doubt there was a swap of children before the sack. It's easy enough to find a dead child in a city being pillaged.

Yeah, but that would require the Mountain to be in on it, and /that/ I cannot imagine.

[Bronn Stone]

Yeah, but that would require the Mountain to be in on it, and /that/ I cannot imagine.

Why so? If it occurs after the sack, all it requires is that Varys is aware that Gregor smashed the baby to pulp and the belief that Gregor Clegane's sworn word won't be sufficient counter-evidence, no?

Members of the royal family do not travel in the same plane. That is because you don't put all your eggs in one basket.

Aegon = Egg. Heh heh heh.

On topic, 100% with Ran on this one. Young Griff is the false dragon of Moqorro's vision.

[Maltaran]

I've just had a thought - there's a historical parallel here with James Edward Stuart, aka the Old Pretender (or James III and VIII, if you happen to be a Jacobite). Supposedly, the real baby was stillborn, and they smuggled the corpse out of the palace and replaced it with a living child. No real evidence, as this was mainly propaganda spread by William IV's supporters, but it's a well-known story, and if the parallels continue then Aegon is doomed (to failure if not death - the Old Pretender lived to a ripe old age in exile in France).

[Ran]

Hasty is a house of the Stormlands, yes. He was one who followed Renly, then joined Stannis, then was captured at the Blackwater and swore himself to Joffrey.

At one point Jaime names him "old Ser Bonifer", so he's definitely a deal older than Jaime, and as Jaime noted Hasty used to serve the old Lord Merryweather who had been Hand of the King.

[Lord Varys]

I'm pretty sure that, if Aegon is going to fail, Connington himself will bring him down. With that stupid Grey Plague he is bringing knowingly to Westeros. Or to be more precise, Connington is going to create a situation where it does not really matter who is the rightful King of Westeros...

[cteresa]

I'm pretty sure that, if Aegon is going to fail, Connington himself will bring him down. With that stupid Grey Plague he is bringing knowingly to Westeros. Or to be more precise, Connington is going to create a situation where it does not really matter who is the rightful King of Westeros...

Varys, I would say that by now, it has been long past the time where the rightful king mattered (if it ever did). The reason I want to know if Grigg is Aegon or not, is because for the dragons it might matter if Aegon is or not.

[Lord Varys]

Well, yeah, not sure if they are going to reveal that, either. I do believe that valyrian blood is needed to use that dragon horn, but if this is not the case, then Victarion might very well be able to enslave Rhaegal and Viserion. And if that works, I doubt they will care or recognize Targaryen blood anymore. Daenerys might be as alien to them then as any other guy except Victarion.

Drogon still could recognize Aegon's blood then, I admit that, but he might very well become a victim of that horn as well. Only later.

[Howling North]

I'm pretty sure that, if Aegon is going to fail, Connington himself will bring him down. With that stupid Grey Plague he is bringing knowingly to Westeros. Or to be more precise, Connington is going to create a situation where it does not really matter who is the rightful King of Westeros...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it's generally by touch and body contact that it spreads am I right? I imagine he can keep himself sufficiently covered before it becomes too bad if that's the case.

[Lord Varys]

So how did it spread to Connington in the first place? He did not touch any of the stone men. Tyrion did. All Connington did was drawing him out of the river.

It is foreshadowed that no one is going to follow a man with the Grey Plague. So it might be enough that he is secret is revealed. And he is very much the head of this whole operation. And he could touch Aegon or anybody else by accident...

[Howling North]

Tyrion was likely only touched on his clothes from what I can gather since he seems to be alright. We're not given the exact scene in regards to how Connington rescued Tyrion, could have just as likely accidentally touched the Stone Man holding Tyrion while knocking him away in order to pull Tyrion up.

Fear of infection most likely, still leaves others in charge of the venture if need be, especially if Aegon manages to step up by then. Connington's the head, but Young Griff is the heart. And I'm sure he'll be careful, he's desperate to get this done before he dies, but he's not anywhere near a fool.

[Bronn Stone]

Well, yeah, not sure if they are going to reveal that, either. I do believe that valyrian blood is needed to use that dragon horn, but if this is not the case, then Victarion might very well be able to enslave Rhaegal and Viserion. And if that works, I doubt they will care or recognize Targaryen blood anymore. Daenerys might be as alien to them then as any other guy except Victarion.

Drogon still could recognize Aegon's blood then, I admit that, but he might very well become a victim of that horn as well. Only later.

I think it is pretty clear that not just anyone can blow the horn and survive, but I'd be surprised if Targaryen (or even Valyrian) blood was essential. I'd expect Thoros or Melisandre to have little problem. I'd not be too terribly surprised if someone with other magics could as well, though I'd bet against it.

[Wouter]

No inside knowledge. I just feel very strongly about it. :)

Seconded. I'm surprised so many seem willing to believe such a devious man as Varys, who seems to be even worse than Littlefinger is. And there seems to be plenty of foreshadowing that Aegon isn't who believes he is. We have seen so many people who look like Targaryens (even Barristan said how much Dany reminds him of Ashara, who is not a Targaryen) on the one hand, and on the other hand Jon very probably is Rhaegars son but he looks like ... Eddard Stark (and Lyanna, no doubt).

In fact, that seems a nice counterpoint: "Aegon" who looks quite like Rhaegar but isn't really his son (though he doesn't know), and Jon who doesn't look one bit like Rhaegar but is his son anyway (only doesn't know it). Such a delightful irony...

[TrackerNeil]

Even if Daenerys is Bonifer's daughter by Rhaella, she still has a claim. Rhaella was a Targaryen by blood as well as Aerys. :P

As to Young Griff, I'm with those who think he's a fake. What convinced me, other than Quaithe's words about a mummer's dragon, was the fact that while Viserys and Daenerys were left to wander pennilessly about the Free Cities for years after Aerys' fall, "Aegon" was carefully hidden, housed, and educated in all the things a Targaryen heir would need to know. Everyone in Westeros and Essos knew and accepted that Viserys and Daenerys were dragons, but the same could not be said of Aegon, and this to my mind largely explains the rigorous efforts that went into his fostering.

Actually, I think this fostering might provide an interesting glimpse into Varys true intentions. Perhaps he's interested in crowning a candidate who actually cares about governing well, instead of some entitled kid of noble lineage. (The latter half of that sentence applies to Daenerys, BTW.)

I think it's neat, also, that Jon Connington has greyscale, which means he's likely to go much further on Young Griff's behalf than some of his other Golden Company compatriots. A man with little to lose is a scary thing, and that pretty much describes Connington.

[Howling North]

Seconded. I'm surprised so many seem willing to believe such a devious man as Varys, who seems to be even worse than Littlefinger is. And there seems to be plenty of foreshadowing that Aegon isn't who believes he is. We have seen so many people who look like Targaryens (even Barristan said how much Dany reminds him of Ashara, who is not a Targaryen) on the one hand, and on the other hand Jon very probably is Rhaegars son but he looks like ... Eddard Stark (and Lyanna, no doubt).

In fact, that seems a nice counterpoint: "Aegon" who looks quite like Rhaegar but isn't really his son (though he doesn't know), and Jon who doesn't look one bit like Rhaegar but is his son anyway (only doesn't know it). Such a delightful irony...

Personally I prefer Varys and his talk of a higher cause and greater purpose versus Littlefinger whose just selfish prick. The foreshadowing of a prophecy from Danys perspective mind you, so call me crazy but I tend to think prophecies have their biases in regards to who they're concerned about. Viserys was a "fake" and yet no ones questioning that he was a Targ. Sending a fake to tame a Dragon in the first place seems also far too risky for someone as crafty as Varys, so I'm assuming he had reason to believe it could work. So for now what inference and logical deduction I can make from so far says Aegon is who he is said to be. I've seen a lot of Dollys (hybrids) that's true, and yet Dorne has probably intermarried the most with the Targs aside from the Dragonstone vassals, so them having similar features sometimes makes sense. And hey, look at Robert, he's a grandson of a Targrayean, yet he looks nothing like them either. Most of Ned's children look like Cat. Seed is strong and all that, depending on the House. That said, I find his 'noble features" the most telling in terms of his royal nature.

As to Young Griff, I'm with those who think he's a fake. What convinced me, other than Quaithe's words about a mummer's dragon, was the fact that while Viserys and Daenerys were left to wander pennilessly about the Free Cities for years after Aerys' fall, "Aegon" was carefully hidden, housed, and educated in all the things a Targaryen heir would need to know. Everyone in Westeros and Essos knew and accepted that Viserys and Daenerys were dragons, but the same could not be said of Aegon, and this to my mind largely explains the rigorous efforts that went into his fostering.

Made sense to me, precisely because they were known put them at great risk. So it was smart in my view to put them out in the open and draw the attention of would-be assassins and the like. At the same time it shifted the bulk of the work in building alliances for House Targrayean onto them, which we saw could be just as dangerous as their enemies. Also, Viserys was already grown enough to feel entitled on who he was, and for others to recognize that he was a bit crazy, and both he and Dany had their own handlers and protectors at that time. They could have just as easily become threats to Aegon's claim later on, Viserys in particular. Varys and Illyrio on the other hand would have their own Targrayean heir to groom and shape from birth, and give him the chance to experience and live a commoners life without the sense of entitlement that would cause them to spurn it like Viserys did. I thought it was smart in any event, it place another egg in another basket as people have noted, in case one plan fell through, they had a back-up.

[Wouter]

Varys talks about higher causes and greater purposes, sure, but is it just that - talk - or does he really mean it? I'm far from convinced he does. The children without tongues are not a good thing, and Varys and Illyrio have been described to us as con artists and thieves. IMO they may be busy with a very large robbery, here.

Dany may be and feel entitled to a large degree, but nevertheless she is the prime subject of the books (along with Jon and Tyrion) and thus likely to be the one who moves things in the end (with the other 2, and some others like Bran). Aegon seems destined to fail, in spite of all what Varys said.

The talk about Dany possible being born out of rape of Rhaelle by Aerys makes me wonder about Rhaegar and Lyanna, and possibly even Joanna and Aerys. Though Rhaegaer seems unlikely to have actually raped Lyanna and the Tyrion as Targaryen theory is still a long shot at this point.

[Jon AS]

That said, I find his 'noble features" the most telling in terms of his royal nature.

Funny, I think it's just about the most subjective description one could come up with. I mean, what the fuck does that even mean, how would you describe "noble features" if you had to give a precise description to the police (after the noble-featured guy tried to steal your dragon/kingdom/magic sword)?

[Lord Damian]

Young griff is Aegon, It seems the whole plan was for him, the true heir, not Visery's to get married to Dany, I do not think, Vary's nor his other conspirators wanted Drogo as king but they suspected Visery's was nuts and would get himself hanged and removed as an obstacle. Dany, however is a problem. She seems no closer to getting to Westeros than before.

[Howling North]

Varys talks about higher causes and greater purposes, sure, but is it just that - talk - or does he really mean it? I'm far from convinced he does. The children without tongues are not a good thing, and Varys and Illyrio have been described to us as con artists and thieves. IMO they may be busy with a very large robbery, here.

Dany may be and feel entitled to a large degree, but nevertheless she is the prime subject of the books (along with Jon and Tyrion) and thus likely to be the one who moves things in the end (with the other 2, and some others like Bran). Aegon seems destined to fail, in spite of all what Varys said.

The talk about Dany possible being born out of rape of Rhaelle by Aerys makes me wonder about Rhaegar and Lyanna, and possibly even Joanna and Aerys. Though Rhaegaer seems unlikely to have actually raped Lyanna and the Tyrion as Targaryen theory is still a long shot at this point.

I found the children to be a perfect example myself, to show how far Varys was willing to go and the sacrifices he's willing to make in the pursuit of his higher cause. Whispers by others, by people who are always suspicious of them, sometimes with good cause but just as often due to their own paranoia. We hear all this talk about the hatred and scorn Varys endures as part of his position and how he bears that monequr of being some kind of bogeyman, to the point I'm convinced a lot of it isn't true and simply George wanting to engender that same paranoia in readers. That often makes them exaggerate the worst features in a character more then that character usually can in my experience, look at Bloodraven for example, Jamie too in regards to Aerys, etc.

And we saw her... fail miserably when it came to winning peace or ruling. My argument concerning Dany is near her last chapters, about being a bringer of death and destruction. She may be able to win a war, but winning the peace is a whole other matter as we saw, perhaps a remnant of the Dothraki residing inside her, and it wouldn't surprise me if she only served to bring House Targaryean back into power to do what she could not, serve justly and peacefully, and retire from there as she often wishes, whether it be for Aegon or possibly Jon.

Funny, I think it's just about the most subjective description one could come up with. I mean, what the fuck does that even mean, how would you describe "noble features" if you had to give a precise description to the police (after the noble-featured guy tried to steal your dragon/kingdom/magic sword)?

I'm going with Tyrion on this okay? He'd know better then most what noble features look like in any event. So I'm assuming they didn't pick Aegon off the street like some street urchin for the time being.