US Politics...the Reckoning

[KazigluBey]

Now I'm an atheist myself, but (like Ormond) this fixation on Perry praying for rain strikes me as slightly odd.

What's your Plan A when an entire state desperately needs rain? Buy some? Import some? Make some? What is it that Perry should have been doing, but wasn't doing, because he was relying on the efficacy of prayer instead?

You're from an area that has abundant rain so I'll give you a pass here. When you live in a water stressed region like the southwest, you have to conserve water. I work in the conservation department of a water utility. He could be building water treatment plants to recycle the water for irrigation, desalination plants for potable water, injecting recycled water into the aquifers to replenish them, and hum drum conservation policies like ripping out lawns and requiring water efficient toilets and washing machines be installed in every house. I don't know if Texas is doing any of that, but if they aren't, and instead are praying for rain, then they're absolute idiots.

[Jon Sprunk]

Warren Buffett explains (again) why taxes need to be raised on the super-rich.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44143776/?GT1=43001

GOP response: "Nuh uh!"

[TrackerNeil]

There are many other, more worrying things about Perry, I understand - that he was unwilling to sign a stay of execution for a man who was probably innocent, and may have impeded an investigation into the matter, for example. That his economic record is partly based on slashing essential services for the poor. That his record on education is poor. Why fixate on the fact that he prayed for rain?

Actually, I think one can harbor serious doubts about Perry's impeding of an investigation of a criminal matter and still be worried that the guy proposed praying for rain.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Kaz,

Not all, or even most, of Texas is desert. This drought is rather unusual. The water conservation you work on in the SW makes more sense there than it does in Eastern Texas.

This is not to say anyone should ignore water conservation. I just makes more sense as State action in areas that are traditionally desert.

[mormont]

You're from an area that has abundant rain so I'll give you a pass here. When you live in a water stressed region like the southwest, you have to conserve water. I work in the conservation department of a water utility. He could be building water treatment plants to recycle the water for irrigation, desalination plants for potable water, injecting recycled water into the aquifers to replenish them, and hum drum conservation policies like ripping out lawns and requiring water efficient toilets and washing machines be installed in every house. I don't know if Texas is doing any of that, but if they aren't, and instead are praying for rain, then they're absolute idiots.

Thanks, but I don't really need the pass. The question was, what was it that Perry wasn't doing because he was supposedly relying on prayer instead? You say that you don't actually know whether he was attending to water conservation measures, so I'm afraid I don't see that you've really answered that question.

I'd be worried if Perry had, for example, refused to fund water conservation measures, because he was so utterly convinced that prayer would do the trick. But as it stands, everything I've read about this suggests that while Perry's call for prayer to end the drought might be the sort of public display of religious faith that's considered a bit embarrassing in European politics, it wasn't a sign of incipient insanity or anything like that.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

Thanks, but I don't really need the pass. The question was, what was it that Perry wasn't doing because he was supposedly relying on prayer instead? You say that you don't actually know whether he was attending to water conservation measures, so I'm afraid I don't see that you've really answered that question.

I'd be worried if Perry had, for example, refused to fund water conservation measures, because he was so utterly convinced that prayer would do the trick. But as it stands, everything I've read about this suggests that while Perry's call for prayer to end the drought might be the sort of public display of religious faith that's considered a bit embarrassing in European politics, it wasn't a sign of incipient insanity or anything like that.

The current President has stated that he prays daily, and has publicly acknowledged praying for Gabby Giffords to recover, for peace in Egypt, etc. I'm not sure why praying for a drought to end is any different. I know it's popular to say that it's just conservatives who bring religion into politics, but there is a pretty well-documented history of religion influence in politics from the Democratic side as well.

You're right -- to Europeans, this might sound strange. In the U.S., it's par for the course.

[TrackerNeil]

I know it's popular to say that it's just conservatives who bring religion into politics, but there is a pretty well-documented history of religion influence in politics from the Democratic side as well.

It's not just "popular" to say that conservatives are more ostentatiously religious than liberals; it's fact. Conservatives typically support policy on abortion, gay rights, spending and other issues based on nothing more than religious doctrine. You don't really see that from liberals very much.

Of course, it's been said, correctly, that most politicians have strong religious views stated vaguely, or vague religious views stated strongly.

While we're discussing the unsuitability of Rick Perry, here's an interesting bit from Matt Yglesias.

[TheKassi]

Since the group has now removed that sentence from their pledge, I can't be 100% sure of the context.

But usually the reasoning of anti-same-sex-marriage groups for why it should be prohibited is that allowing same sex marriage "devalues" marriage and therefore will make it even less popular with heterosexuals. It's probable that whoever wrote the preamble to the pledge was thinking something like "The African-American community already has a huge proportion of out of wedlock births, and if we allow same sex marriage that will increase even further."

I know it really doesn't make much sense, but the idea that same sex marriage will lead to fewer heterosexuals getting married, and therefore more kids being born to single mothers and raised without fathers, is one of the core arguments of those who try to give a non-religious reason for opposing same-sex marriage.

That I can consider a logical progression. I would disagree with the dark view of it's consequences, but it still makes sense. A lot more sense then going into slavery when you are taking a trip down marriage glorification lane.

As for people made uncomfortable by Rick Perry talking about prayer, for the secular crowd prayer is a lot like shaving your head. Different, but not necessarily bad. Heck, many might even consider it attractive. Pair it with some military surplus boots with white laces however, and it starts to raise eyebrows. Add in fatigues and people really start to get uncomfortable.

Prayer doesn't make you a religious zealot anymore then shaving your head makes you a skinhead. Pair it up with other behaviors, like using your faith to justify bigotry, attempting to selectively legislate from the old testament, and talking about how proper women submit before their husband and people start to get uncomfortable, even if in other context they would consider the same thing innocuous.

[Ser Greguh]

Now I'm an atheist myself, but (like Ormond) this fixation on Perry praying for rain strikes me as slightly odd.

What's your Plan A when an entire state desperately needs rain? Buy some? Import some? Make some? What is it that Perry should have been doing, but wasn't doing, because he was relying on the efficacy of prayer instead?

So far as I can see, the sensation here is: 'religious guy in need resorts to prayer'. Well, um... yeah.

There are many other, more worrying things about Perry, I understand - that he was unwilling to sign a stay of execution for a man who was probably innocent, and may have impeded an investigation into the matter, for example. That his economic record is partly based on slashing essential services for the poor. That his record on education is poor. Why fixate on the fact that he prayed for rain?

Quite obviously he should have been doing any number of things to utilize the power of the state to ease the effects of the drought. Put money into irrigation systems, provide relief for farmers, institute conservation policies to mitigate the damage done by the weather. He did none of that, and instead he used the opportunity for a bit of religious grandstanding - he didn't just pray for rain, he established three official "Days of Prayer for Rain". In the grand scheme of things I don't really care if he personally prayed for rain - I think it's silly, but ultimately harmless so long as actual plans are put in place. However the pattern that Texas has seen with Rick Perry has been one of putting an evangelical mindset before anything else when it comes to determining public policy.

Yes, you can hammer him to hell and back on his policy, you can talk about his failure to stay the execution in the case of arson-that-wasn't, you can speak to the horrific state of Texas private schools, but none of that really captures just how scary a potential Perry presidency would be. This is the sort of evangelical that hasn't yet been unleashed on the public at large from the U.S. just yet. I care more about the fact that he has consistently referred to politics as "his pulpit" throughout his political career far more than I care about any number of his failed policies or individual decisions. This is a man who has all but dedicated his life to the abolition of the separation of church and state, who explicitly and overtly aligns with and agrees with those that seek to turn the U.S. into a true Theocracy. I focus on his prayer for rain because it speaks to his overall philosophy; hammering him on failed policies and poor decisions doesn't have nearly the same effect.

[Atreides]

I think part of the problem people have with Perry and the rain prayer wasn't just that he prayed for rain. It's that he issued a proclamation calling on Texans to pray for three days for rain. An official proclamation to pray for rain =/= personal praying for rain, which is fine.

[Lummel]

Not all, or even most, of Texas is desert. This drought is rather unusual. The water conservation you work on in the SW makes more sense there than it does in Eastern Texas.

This is not to say anyone should ignore water conservation. I just makes more sense as State action in areas that are traditionally desert.

Drought is not unusual in Texas. It is unusual compared with the late 70s and the 1980s but they seem to have been wetter than normal.

[IheartTesla]

I think part of the problem people have with Perry and the rain prayer wasn't just that he prayed for rain. It's that he issued a proclamation calling on Texans to pray for three days for rain. An official proclamation to pray for rain =/= personal praying for rain, which is fine.

This is what Sonny Purdue did in Georgia too, a couple of years ago. When Atlanta had only 40 days of reserve water left, hehehehe.

Well, at least he lied about returning the Confederate symbol to the state flag, so we should be thankful for something.

[The Progressive]

The problem for drought-stricken Texas was that instead of sacrificing some virgins to go along with the prayers, Perry executed only an illegal Mexican instead.

Clearly that didn't please the rain gods.

[Shryke]

Here's Matthew Yglesia on the top 10 crazy things in Perry's book:

http://thinkprogress.org/yglesias/2011/08/15/295427/295427/

— 10. Social Security Is Evil

— 9. Private Enterprise Blossomed Under Conscription and Wartime Price Controls

— 8. Medicare Is Too Expensive But Must Never Be Cut

— 7. All Bank Regulation Is Unconstitutional

— 6. Consumer Financial Protection Is Unconstitutional

— 5. Almost Everything Is Unconstitutional

— 4. Federal Education Policy Is Unconstitutional

— 3. Al Gore Is Part Of A Conspiracy To Deny The Existence Of Global Cooling

— 2. Not Only Is Everything Unconstitutional, Activist Judges Are A Problem

— 1. The Civil War Was Caused By Slaveowners Trampling On Northern States’ Rights: Rather than simply citing chattel slavery as an exemption to his “states’ rights are good” principle, Perry argues that slaveholder activism in the 1850s was an example of big government federal overreach. “In many ways it was was the northern states whose sovereignty was violated in the run-up to the Civil War,” he argues, citing the Fugitive Slave Act and completely ignoring the human rights of the enslaved African-Americans of the south. He says “we can never know what would have happened in the absence of federal involvement,” ignoring again the fact that federalism would have bought peace at the price of continued slavery.

[Shryke]

This is also some more analysis from 538 on the effect of Iowa on the Primary and such: http://fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/08/15/is-iowa-irrelevant/

Fairly interesting, though not easy to really summarise beyond "It's complicated but there seems to be some sort of effect".

[mormont]

Quite obviously he should have been doing any number of things to utilize the power of the state to ease the effects of the drought. Put money into irrigation systems, provide relief for farmers, institute conservation policies to mitigate the damage done by the weather. He did none of that

Did he really not do any of these things? How many of them were in his power to do, anyway? And did he fail to do these things because he sincerely believed them unnecessary because prayer would bring rain, or did he fail to do them because he's ideologically opposed to them, was unable to get political support for them, was too late in implementing them, or because there was no money in the state's budget for them?

But I'll tell you what - skip those questions. Just consider this. Politicians talk about issues 'having traction' with voters, independent voters in particular. Now as I said, I'm a godless Eurocommie, way less religious and way more left-wing than the average US independent: and yet, this issue doesn't really have any 'traction' even with me. Do you really think it'll be a problem for Perry with independents, let alone Republicans?

An Evangelical philosophy is not really a major handicap for a US Presidential candidate. And Perry, I understand, is happy to put that philosophy second to economic issues. Credibility on those issues (something Michelle Bachmann can't lay claim to) is what will really matter in the end. Unless Mr Perry has significantly bigger skeletons in his closet than praying for rain, of course.

[DanteGabriel]

Dear Teabaggers,

The more America learns about you, the more it dislikes you. Kindly fuck off.

http://people-press.org/2011/04/08/tea-party-better-known-less-popular/

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

It's not just "popular" to say that conservatives are more ostentatiously religious than liberals; it's fact. Conservatives typically support policy on abortion, gay rights, spending and other issues based on nothing more than religious doctrine. You don't really see that from liberals very much.

Of course, it's been said, correctly, that most politicians have strong religious views stated vaguely, or vague religious views stated strongly.

Social conservatives base their positions on religion, but they're far from being all conservatives or all Republicans. On the other hand, black churches have been politically active for a long time, and their members are a core Democratic constituency.

I'd agree the religious element is stronger in the GOP, but there is certainly enough of it in the Democratic Party (though maybe not among the liberal white elite), that any stones being cast would damage both houses pretty severely.

[Ser Greguh]

But I'll tell you what - skip those questions. Just consider this. Politicians talk about issues 'having traction' with voters, independent voters in particular. Now as I said, I'm a godless Eurocommie, way less religious and way more left-wing than the average US independent: and yet, this issue doesn't really have any 'traction' even with me. Do you really think it'll be a problem for Perry with independents, let alone Republicans?

An Evangelical philosophy is not really a major handicap for a US Presidential candidate. And Perry, I understand, is happy to put that philosophy second to economic issues. Credibility on those issues (something Michelle Bachmann can't lay claim to) is what will really matter in the end. Unless Mr Perry has significantly bigger skeletons in his closet than praying for rain, of course.

The lack of "traction" that the issue has with you I would say has less to do with your own political viewpoints and probably much more to do with isolation from the full effect of the evangelical alliance within US politics. Most politicians, even ones with strong religious views and who actively court and courted the evangelical far-right base, have tended to be able to separate that kind of advertisement with their day-to-day policies and politics; while GWB was able to get those voters out in droves to vote for him as "one of their own", where the rubber hit the road he got very little done in terms of advancing the socially-conservative agenda he talked about on the campaign trail, and most of his work as president centered upon the hawkish agenda of his neocon inner circle.

Perry is a different beast altogether; while his talking points can potentially paint a picture of an economic-minded small-government free-market conservative, his day-to-day rhetoric is that of a true-blue Jesus-is-the-answer-to-everything complete religious nut, leading up to the 33,000 person prayer rally he organized and hosted in Houston a couple of weeks ago. He is without a doubt the most overtly evangelical serious presidential contender the USA has seen, something that historically gains huge traction amongst fellow evangelicals but is seen as a major liability amongst most everyone else.

It goes well beyond the fact that he organized three official days of prayer for rain.

[Shryke]

Perry is one of those "act of God" type guys.

As in "the BP oil spill was an Act of God".

Or, in the case of others "The earthquake in Haiti was an act of God".

Or, "Katrina was because of gays" or the like.