Asian Fever II

[Spider From Mars]

Most men here have *een indoctrinated same as us women. Men from more enlightened societies haven't. So perhaps when they assume the same narrow minded, insulting stereotypes that 'our' men have forced us into for so long, it's disappointing and infuriating on another level? I know they don't have an o*ligation per se to dig deeper, look past the stereotype. Doesn't mean it won't piss the stereotypee (?) off.

I appreciate you sharing your perspective in a thoughtful manner on this and I can definitely see where experiencing the same type of stereotyping from “more enlightened” societies would be frustrating. You can, and should, expect members of that society to better than that. I respect women who are subject to oppression from within their own minority group who rightfully declaim against harmful stereotypes, but it is more difficult to appreciate that same opinion from male members of her minority group who are responsible for creating the stereotype and oppression in the first place, especially when their righteous indignation and umbrage at the stereotyping are commonly expressed against their new majority group alone.

Although it is anecdotal, I can only share what I have seen in my experience: I have dated four Asian women (2 Laotian, 1 Vietnamese, and 1 Japanese). Only one of them fit the “quiet and submissive” stereotype and that was the reason for our falling apart. In my experience, their penchant for speaking out and fighting back was directly influenced by their ability to do so safely in a western, whites-dominated culture. I doubt they would have ever been allowed to be as vocal if they had stayed in Laos or remained insulated within their ethnic communities here in the United States (thank you, public schools). They universally faced more pressure to conform to the “quiet and submissive” stereotype from their own peer group and all preferred White men because there was less of that particular expectation.

[Colder Hands]

NYULocal article

One problem with the above link is I cringe whenever I read the term Yellow Fever. If it is used I like to see a comment about how the term it self is disrespectful.

The comments in the above article represent some various views.

Village Voice old article

In the Village Voice article, the guy it follows and then raps with is a jerk, but it brings up some interesting points.

Hard Boiled frustrated

Seems to be a bigger pool of guys similar to the kid (fake or not) in the OP and people reacting similar to Yags

Blog post and loads of comments

This blog both makes some interesting insights and causes flame worthy reaction. Not supporting it, just presenting more reading and especially some of the comments. Obviously some of the comments are stupid, hateful and crap, but some are good. Adds some more perspective past the posters here going back and forth.

At the end of the day, yes it exists, just like there are other fetishes. Will it end or change? Not likely. So what can we do to change and better educate people?

The real discussion should be what are the detrimental results of this and what actions can be done to limit the damage and better educate?

See my big problem with this thread is Yags and the tone he takes in his posts, I don't doubt he is truly bothered and would like to see a change. I just think he causes more problems vs moving toward a positive movement.

[Tempra]

I appreciate you sharing your perspective in a thoughtful manner on this and I can definitely see where experiencing the same type of stereotyping from “more enlightened” societies would be frustrating. You can, and should, expect members of that society to better than that. I respect women who are subject to oppression from within their own minority group who rightfully declaim against harmful stereotypes, but it is more difficult to appreciate that same opinion from male members of her minority group who are responsible for creating the stereotype and oppression in the first place, especially when their righteous indignation and umbrage at the stereotyping are commonly expressed against their new majority group alone.

Although it is anecdotal, I can only share what I have seen in my experience: I have dated four Asian women (2 Laotian, 1 Vietnamese, and 1 Japanese). Only one of them fit the “quiet and submissive” stereotype and that was the reason for our falling apart. In my experience, their penchant for speaking out and fighting back was directly influenced by their ability to do so safely in a western, whites-dominated culture. I doubt they would have ever been allowed to be as vocal if they had stayed in Laos or remained insulated within their ethnic communities here in the United States (thank you, public schools). They universally faced more pressure to conform to the “quiet and submissive” stereotype from their own peer group and all preferred White men because there was less of that particular expectation.

Because Asians have been conditioned to believe the quiet and submissive minority does best in America. Don't try to shift the blame to minorities, Racist. And don't get all butthurty either because I called you out for what you are.

[Kalbear]

Gotta say, Yags, this is one of your better efforts in recent years.

[DanteGabriel]

So Tempra and Spider, if I read your posts correctly, all this stereotyping is Asians' fault and white people are the real victims here, for having to feel guilty about just buying what Asian men have been telling them about their women. Or something.

Also, black people engaged in slavery, so suck it, minorities.

[evanesco75]

I think Tempra was saying the opposite: that Asians feel they have to conform to such stereotypes in the West/US/White Majority societies?

Or was it sarcasm? Sorry if so!

[Tempra]

So Tempra and Spider, if I read your posts correctly,

You didn't.

[Spider From Mars]

So Tempra and Spider, if I read your posts correctly, all this stereotyping is Asians' fault and white people are the real victims here, for having to feel guilty about just buying what Asian men have been telling them about their women. Or something.

Also, black people engaged in slavery, so suck it, minorities.

If you got “all stereotyping” is the fault of minority groups and whites are victims out of my posts, then you definitely didn’t read my posts correctly. I suggest reading back through and seeing some of the great posts from people about how it is irresponsible to assign the actions of one person to an entire group. I didn’t think it was irrelevant to point out that while whites stereotype other ethnic groups, they are rarely the sole culprits. If we really want to eliminate the stereotype of the “quiet and submissive” Asian woman, you’ll see far greater results by starting with Asians and not Whitey. I’d like to hear a little more anger from Asian men about how their parents and grandparents perceived and treated other Asian women and less about how Whitey does it, because one of those is significantly more oppressive and bears a greater degree of responsibility for the way Asian women are stereotyped and mistreated on a daily basis.

But if you’d rather just attack the convenient target of the White Devil and ignore the real cause of the problem, have at it.

[DanteGabriel]

It's cool, Spider, I commend you for only being interested in strong-willed independent Asian women who have thrown off the oppressive shackles of their native cultures to bask in your sweet, sweet, enlightened Western empowerment.

[Spider From Mars]

It's cool, Spider, I commend you for only being interested in strong-willed independent Asian women who have thrown off the oppressive shackles of their native cultures to bask in your sweet, sweet, enlightened Western empowerment.

They liked me because I didn’t objectivize them as quiet and submissive wife material, like their peers in their minority group did. Is that really so hard to understand? But you just seemed more interested in scoring one-liners here.

Did you also intend to discount and dismiss the experiences and opinions of evanesco (who I was responding to) who finds it especially disappointing and infuriating when someone from a western “enlightened society” displays the stereotypical behavior she had come to expect from her “indoctrinated” peers?

[evanesco75]

I really resent the implication that Asian women can only *reak shackles etc in Western society/under the influence or patronage of Western/White/Enlightened Men. Vomit.

Those who do it do so of their own volition, for their reasons, their principles, their very fucking lives. Not when it suits them, or is safe/easy. It isn't a*out picking and choosing. It's a*out wanting something for yourself, something every human is entitled to, and fighting for it daily.

Not to sound all soap-*oxy, *ut that is what I like to think I do. The fact that it's so hard makes it more meaningful, even. Sometimes anyway.

And yes, when I visit the States/Europe (which I have done regularly since I was a tot) and get mistaken for a Le*anese/Israeli/Spanish woman *ecause I wear short dresses and drink wine, it's fucking annoying. Yet, I try and put across the idea that many women (ok, not proportionately *ut in a*solute terms) do what they want *ack home. That we aren't all one gigantic seething mass of fervent, meek slaves. And it's nice to feel you might have changed someone's mind :)

Not trying to step on any toes here (I'm still too new, dammit!). Just wanted to say this.

[Eyelesbarrow]

I deal with this a lot as the Asian in an Asian-Caucasian couple (see earlier post about the gay Asian social group).

My attitude is to just say: fuck'em (if they're hot).

I think most inter-racial couples can share some of their own experience about this. It's inescapable that the minority member of the pair will face some suspicions, and sometimes outright hostility, from their own social group. In the mean time, the one in the pair who belongs to the dominant social group will face suspicion of being an exploiter. That's just what we have to live with until the dynamics are different. Oddly, this is less true when it's a case of a white person marrying a SE Asian while in the SE Asian country. The dynamics there is very different than when the couple is here, which makes sense as the notion of race and power are very different between countries. I'm just pointing this out before someone tries to make a point about it. :P

Heh, this sums up my attitude too. Screw them all with their suspicions.

This reminds me of one of my recent experiences. I was in a queue in fancy supermarket in Berlin and in front of me was an older, Caucasian guy, maybe 20 years older than me. We were both buying spring rolls. (Hey, I miss my food!) The guy at the counter took our orders and later on, I realized that he rang it together. I didn't get it at first, but it hit me when there was the inevitable confusion over the bill. I couldn't help it, my face just went dark. I was a bit away from the Caucasian guy and was not talking to him. No sign that we knew each other at all. I was annoyed by it because 1. He jumped into conclusions. Would he have made the same mistake if I were not Asian? and 2. He had to re-do the order again, call the manager, which meant I was not able to eat my spring rolls hot from the pan. Hmph. I like my spring rolls, yeah.

[Seventh Pup]

Never mind carry on...

[Spider From Mars]

I really resent the implication that Asian women can only *reak shackles etc in Western society/under the influence or patronage of Western/White/Enlightened Men. Vomit.

Those who do it do so of their own volition, for their reasons, their principles, their very fucking lives. Not when it suits them, or is safe/easy. It isn't a*out picking and choosing. It's a*out wanting something for yourself, something every human is entitled to, and fighting for it daily.

Not to sound all soap-*oxy, *ut that is what I like to think I do. The fact that it's so hard makes it more meaningful, even. Sometimes anyway.

And yes, when I visit the States/Europe (which I have done regularly since I was a tot) and get mistaken for a Le*anese/Israeli/Spanish woman *ecause I wear short dresses and drink wine, it's fucking annoying. Yet, I try and put across the idea that many women (ok, not proportionately *ut in a*solute terms) do what they want *ack home. That we aren't all one gigantic seething mass of fervent, meek slaves. And it's nice to feel you might have changed someone's mind :)

Not trying to step on any toes here (I'm still too new, dammit!). Just wanted to say this.

Who is saying that gender expectations and stereotyping can only be broken in western society? My point was that Asian women are more often, and to a far more significant degree, pushed to conform to gender roles and stereotypes within their own peer group. Many, as you clearly have, transcend them, but many do not. I think it is an odd argument to suggest that gender stereotyping of Asian women as “quiet and submissive” is more prevalent and thus harmful flowing from White Men-Asian Woman than Asian men-Asian Woman, especially in their own country or within insulated communities within the United States or other western societies.

And don’t worry about stepping on toes. Intelligent discourse requires people to be in disagreement.

[Yagathai]

And don’t worry about stepping on toes. Intelligent discourse requires people to be in disagreement.

<_<

[Addien]

Are we really uncritically saying that East Asian ethnic groups expect their women to act "submissive and docile"? Because you have a whole other thing coming. Dude, I live in Korea and while the typical hyper-femininity act is encouraged, you wouldn't call these women submissive little flowers at all.

Patriarchy is worldwide.

ETA: I just remembered the pesky little fact that Western emissaries often encouraged practices like sex selection and overt sexism in East Asia because it further helped their colonizing agenda. Double suppression, high five!

[BigFatCoward]

can we all chip in for a new keyboard for evanesco75? it is really hurting my head.

though i greatly admire their perseverance!

[Spider From Mars]

Are we really uncritically saying that East Asian ethnic groups expect their women to act "submissive and docile"? Because you have a whole other thing coming. Dude, I live in Korea and while the typical hyper-femininity act is encouraged, you wouldn't call these women submissive little flowers at all.

Patriarchy is worldwide.

In comparison to expectations of them acting “submissive and quiet” in the United States because of their gender and race, absolutely. I think the pressure is higher in Japan than in New York for an Asian woman to adhere to expected gender roles and stereotypes.

But that is me acting defensive and derailing the thread. We really should get back to blaming the White Devil for inventing and propagating the stereotype of Asian women as "delicate flowers" who are "quiet and submissive."

[Lord O' Bones]

I'm not your "dear" or anyone's "dear", and I feel like there is a parallel to "boy" here. Would you call a male poster "my dear"? I don't think so.

Would I? Absolutely! Though I realise that you don't know me that well so apologies for any induced aggravation on my part.

For the record, I was referring to the conversation as a whole. Some posters seem really invested in proving Yags has some personal agenda, thus negating the topic of conversation. I find that level of investment itself worth comment.

Fair enough.

I would call Bones that.

:love:

[Addien]

In comparison to expectations of them acting “submissive and quiet” in the United States because of their gender and race, absolutely. I think the pressure is higher in Japan than in New York for an Asian woman to adhere to expected gender roles and stereotypes.

And from what factual source do you base such an observation? The lived experiences of Japanese women versus USian women? Ethnographies? Back that assertion up.