Asian Fever II

[TerraPrime]

No, show some evidence that this is more widespread than a small group, or rail against that small group, not all white people.

Except, of course, the ability of this allegedly small group (how do you know it's small?) of people derives from the institutionalized power of the dominant group?

2. Not even society objectifies Asian people (unless it objectifies every single other group there are stereotypes for... so everyone).

So.... there're really no issues, then. That's reassuring. All we need to worry about are the behavior of a select few people who harbor racial stereotypes. When you put it that way, I can see why it's so over the top to have an internet thread in a forum about it. Talk about tempest in an oolong tea cup!

But that's not what this thread is about, is it? It's about the sexual preferences of some, and you're generalizing it to the whole of white people.

Except that it isn't.

[Asarlai]

Except, of course, the ability of this allegedly small group (how do you know it's small?) of people derives from the institutionalized power of the dominant group?

The ability of this group to do what? And who says it's only white people? I'm sure there are people of other races who prefer East Asian women, just like there are people of [insert race] that prefer [insert race], it just hasn't become a comedy-fueled stereotype like "Perseus" and unattractive white people like him obsessed with Asian culture ("superior" is his words).

How do I know it's small? I haven't seen any indication to prove that it's large. I thought you had to prove an allegation, not have to disprove it?

So.... there're really no issues, then. That's reassuring. All we need to worry about are the behavior of a select few people who harbor racial stereotypes. When you put it that way, I can see why it's so over the top to have an internet thread in a forum about it. Talk about tempest in an oolong tea cup!

It's making false claims.

Except that it isn't.

Then what is it about? I remember several posts by the thread starter about how an East Asian fetish is creepy and racist (which I didn't disagree with, actually). And that's kind of how this started, no? My problem is when it went from poking a little fun at "Perseus" to saying "white people" objectify East Asians.

Do "white people" (enough to use the sweeping term "white people") view East Asians as objects?

I would say no. I don't see proof that enough people do to say yes to such a generalization.

[DanteGabriel]

My problem is when it went from poking a little fun at "Perseus" to saying "white people" objectify East Asians.

Sucks to be generalized about, huh?

[Asarlai]

Sucks to be generalized about, huh?

It's not so much that it's a group I'm a part of (though don't particularly identify with), since I know how I am personally. It's that it's happening at all. It's basically just racial stereotyping, which is allegedly the target of this thread.

It's hypocritical. "Stereotypes are bad and forced on us by society... And white people objectify Asian women."

I'd feel the same if it was a white guy citing some black guy's "white women only" personal ad and complaining "Why are black guys all over white women? It's like they have a sick, racist fetish." Actually, that's not true, I'd regard that as much worse. But, intellectually, it's fairly similar.

[TerraPrime]

The ability of this group to do what?

To assert cultural dominance? To live with racial privileges conferred by the color of their skins? Are we back to inter-group power dynamics 101?

And who says it's only white people? I'm sure there are people of other races who prefer East Asian women, just like there are people of [insert race] that prefer [insert race], it just hasn't become a comedy-fueled stereotype like "Perseus" and unattractive white people like him obsessed with Asian culture ("superior" is his words).

Mere "preference" has never been the core of the complaint. I wish you'd stop deliberately minimizing the actual event. When I choose chocolate ice cream over vanilla, that's a preference. When I choose to hire white housekeeper instead of a black one because I fear that black people will steal my stuff, that's a preference born out of racism. You are describing the phenomenon of how some people in the dominant group fetishize and exoticize those in the minority group as if they are merely exercising a benign preference as in the case of ice cream flavors, when in reality, it is more similar to the second case.

How do I know it's small? I haven't seen any indication to prove that it's large. I thought you had to prove an allegation, not have to disprove it?

I learned from the internet that where there's neither evidence for nor against, one ought to adopt an agnostic point of view.

Do "white people" (enough to use the sweeping term "white people") view East Asians as objects?

I would say no. I don't see proof that enough people do to say yes to such a generalization.

Eh? it's almost like you think racist, sexist, or homophobic people get to be that way all by acting alone.

Are all men sexist? No. Is it possible to address sexism without talking about how men behave as an aggregate? You let me know.

[Asarlai]

To assert cultural dominance? To live with racial privileges conferred by the color of their skins? Are we back to inter-group power dynamics 101?

And that's what Perseus is doing? He's asserting cultural dominance? Seems like he's saying he prefers Asian culture ("superior") and is expressing his racist sexual preferences. Perseus, however, is not all white people.

Mere "preference" has never been the core of the complaint. I wish you'd stop deliberately minimizing the actual event. When I choose chocolate ice cream over vanilla, that's a preference. When I choose to hire white housekeeper instead of a black one because I fear that black people will steal my stuff, that's a preference born out of racism. You are describing the phenomenon of how some people in the dominant group fetishize and exoticize those in the minority group as if they are merely exercising a benign preference as in the case of ice cream flavors, when in reality, it is more similar to the second case.

You're right, I wasn't trying to downplay it like that. I think the discussion can progress much better with your language... "some people in the dominant group." Of course, some people in other minority groups do the same, but if you don't want to discuss that, you don't have to.

I learned from the internet that where there's neither evidence for nor against, one ought to adopt an agnostic point of view.

:D Glad you had a change of heart.

Eh? it's almost like you think racist, sexist, or homophobic people get to be that way all by acting alone.

Are all men sexist? No. Is it possible to address sexism without talking about how men behave as an aggregate? You let me know.

Sexism is ingrained in society (though not nearly so much now as 60 years ago). Sexual fetishes are not. Racial stereotypes are, but those are there for all groups. Hell, even some of the language used by Yag ("model minority") shows that the stereotypes for Asians aren't so bad as the stereotypes for other minorities. Of course, they're still bad, and that's not what I'm trying to say.

Okay, I don't think you're understanding what I'm saying, and maybe I'm not understanding what you're saying.

What I am saying

-Perseus is objectifying East Asian women in a negative way.

-Racial stereotyping, including racial fetishism, is negative.

-Perseus and people like him DO NOT represent "white people" as a whole

-Society in general, however, does have a problem with stereotypes (non-sexual)

-Claims that "white people" as a whole objectify or "fetishize" East Asian women are stereotypical in themselves and only contribute to unjustified, negative stereotypes. Like if someone said "black men objectify and fetishize white women."

[Kosciuszko]

Meh, this thread has gone to hell in a dozen ways, so I might as well make a post lamenting the clear hatred directed at people that like anime/manga and happen to be white. We all aren't Perseus!

(to be clear, I've not seen any of this and am just making a joke)

[Asarlai]

The Perseus ad is really funny, though. Rereading it... Petite build, but he still likes his women with some meat on them. He'll discuss the meaning of life with you over a glass of wine in the 'even. And he would prefer a "traditional ladies' education." :laugh:

[DanteGabriel]

The Perseus ad is really funny, though. Rereading it... Petite build, but he still likes his women with some meat on them. He'll discuss the meaning of life with you over a glass of wine in the 'even. And he would prefer a "traditional ladies' education." :laugh:

Does anyone actually think that ad is for real? It screamed parody at me.

[Eponine]

-Claims that "white people" as a whole objectify or "fetishize" East Asian women are stereotypical in themselves and only contribute to unjustified, negative stereotypes. Like if someone said "black men objectify and fetishize white women."

It might be better stated that as a minority group with long standing stereotypes perpetuated against them, East Asian women are in a position where they are able to be thoughtlessly objectified and fetishized by the dominant culture. You apparently get your panties in a wad at the idea of identifying the dominant culture as "white people", even though it's been nowhere stated that anyone is talking about all white people. But your fucked up comic just goes to prove that apparently a huge number of people in American culture understand exactly the position that East Asian women are in. If it wasn't a popular and well known view of East Asian women, there would be no point to referencing it. Even the asshole in the comic, while giving lip service to the idea that he's wrong for thinking that way, is really perpetuating the message that "yeah, this is what men really think when they see an Asian woman, anything we say to the contrary is just to make us look less like assholes". And that's what you call funny. And then you whinge about how this is somehow unfair to white people.

But you're coming across as being like - this isn't a big problem for me, so why are we even talking about it. Which really isn't cool at all.

[Asarlai]

Does anyone actually think that ad is for real? It screamed parody at me.

Yeah, especially with the name. But it could be real, you know? And I think we've all met people like that, though perhaps not so extreme.

It might be better stated that as a minority group with long standing stereotypes perpetuated against them, East Asian women are in a position where they are able to be thoughtlessly objectified and fetishized by the dominant culture. You apparently get your panties in a wad at the idea of identifying the dominant culture as "white people", even though it's been nowhere stated that anyone is talking about all white people. But your fucked up comic just goes to prove that apparently a huge number of people in American culture understand exactly the position that East Asian women are in. If it wasn't a popular and well known view of East Asian women, there would be no point to referencing it. Even the asshole in the comic, while giving lip service to the idea that he's wrong for thinking that way, is really perpetuating the message that "yeah, this is what men really think when they see an Asian woman, anything we say to the contrary is just to make us look less like assholes". And that's what you call funny. And then you whinge about how this is somehow unfair to white people.

But you're coming across as being like - this isn't a big problem for me, so why are we even talking about it. Which really isn't cool at all.

Hm, I think I've been misunderstanding what you're saying. Yes, I think the racial stereotypes present in our ("white dominated") culture do make it easier for people like Perseus to objectify certain (Asian, in his case) women. And while it isn't that behavior that society as a whole has, it's that they perpetuate the stereotypes used by such people.

And I suppose the stereotype is more liable to exploited in a sexual way. Black people eating chicken or Jews loving money or the Irish drinking a lot don't lend themselves particularly well to sexual fetishes, but Asian women being submissive seems to play out in an exploitative/sexual manner.

On an aside, all East Asian women I've known well personally have been quite out-spoken about their views. I suppose the "submissive" thing comes from stereotypical "traditional culture." Hence why "Perseus" (if he's real) wants one with a "traditional ladies' education."

[TerraPrime]

You're right, I wasn't trying to downplay it like that. I think the discussion can progress much better with your language...

Oh I see. I had quite forgotten about the butthurt that some people in the dominant group feel when they feel that their entire group is criticized for committing some sort of unsavory acts when we should all know that only some of them do. My bad.

"some people in the dominant group." Of course, some people in other minority groups do the same, but if you don't want to discuss that, you don't have to.

Hmmm... what? I was the first one to bring up an example of it, as far as I can tell. The fact that you didn't choose to comment on it does not mean that I haven't acknowledged it.

Let's also be clear that this is another typical reaction that some people in the dominant group do when their group is criticized: to point out that the same criticized event takes place in the minority group, too. For instance, if we talk about how black people suffer from being stereotyped as being criminals, we can expect to hear that some black people stereotype another group, like maybe Koreans, too. It's usually then followed by a somewhat sneering remark about how we don't hear nearly the same level of criticism against black people on theirracism, implying that there's the criticism on the racism of some white people is either blow out of proportion or not warranted. Typically, we also hear the example on how it's not fair that white people cannot call black people "ni**ers" but black people do it all the time to each other as a lead in to bemoan the hypocrisy and special treatment that black people enjoy in this society.

I sure hope you're not going down that road!

Sexual fetishes are not.

Say that again? Sexualizing the minority has existed for as long as, well, minority groups have been established. Orientalism is a term, after all, and not just in the last 30 years. Drawing on the comparison of Africans as more animalistic, for instance, were born the stereotypes that black men have ferocious sexual appetites. This type of thinking has been around for a long time.

Racial stereotypes are, but those are there for all groups. Hell, even some of the language used by Yag ("model minority") shows that the stereotypes for Asians aren't so bad as the stereotypes for other minorities. Of course, they're still bad, and that's not what I'm trying to say.

I don't think Yags, nor me, nor anyone else, is denying that there are other sexually-charged racial stereotypes. I'm not sure what's germaine about bringing it up.

What I am saying

-Perseus is objectifying East Asian women in a negative way.

-Racial stereotyping, including racial fetishism, is negative.

-Perseus and people like him DO NOT represent "white people" as a whole

- While Perseus and people like him do not represent "white people" (why are we using quotes?) as a whole, they are products of a white dominant culture, which enables them to behave in this way. Therefore, if we are to discuss the roots of this behavior, we need to address the factors that lead to it, and that includes talking about inter-group dynamics, which in turn requires the acceptance that we need to talk about groups of humans instead of individuals. Perseus is one individual (fake or otherwise), but he by himself is not the issue. It is people like him, as a group, that is the issue, and the group of people like him are part of a larger grouping that confers that power.

As far as what I'm talking about, it is this: that we are witnessing, in this thread, the behavior of some majority group people's tendency to dismiss, minimize, and suppress criticisms on the behavior of that majority group. To be sure, it was all done in a rather slick manner, in that the messenger was an easy target to rip into. I was also responding, earlier, to the question on whether this type of discussion is of any use at all, and what purposes do these discussions serve.

[Lord of Oop North]

I only wish Perseus = all white people.

It would mean more asian women for the rest of us.

[Asarlai]

TerraPrime, I find it interesting that you feel the need to characterize me as a "member of the dominant group" in this discussion, rather than just a person. As I said, I would have reacted even more negatively if the claim was "Black men objectify and fetishize white women."

Otherwise, I'm not arguing that the underlying societal stereotypes contribute to this behavior, nor am I saying that it isn't wrong, on both counts. It is.

[Lord of Oop North]

I'm fairly comfortable with the generalization that people like Perseus = not getting laid.

[Asarlai]

Now, now. We don't know what kind of responses his ad has generated. Who is to say that Perseus isn't having the last laugh? Any attempt to make a reasonable attempt is just stereotyping.

I checked out the main website. Not so funny, unfortunately. Mainly just odd little ads and cringe-worthy photos (http://dating.failblog.org/2011/08/09/dating-fails-ye-olde-laytex-condomes/).

I'm fairly comfortable with the generalization that people like Perseus = not getting laid.

There are female Perseods.

[Lord O' Bones]

Yags does act very uppity. It's a constant headache for me. Why can't he behave like a good Asian would? Minaku is good with music, Eponine and Naz and Cyrano are all good with science. I'm not sure what went wrong with Yags, to be honest. I told him not to raise an issue in a confrontational way because it will upset the majority, but did he listen? No, of course he didn't.

:lol:

Does anyone actually think that ad is for real? It screamed parody at me.

Anything is possible. But it seems too much like a perfect storm to be for real. This is what I was talking about in the pot stirring thread. Overall, I am agnostic on this issue.

[TerraPrime]

It's sure not unfair to white people in any broad sense, but I don't like the notion that in said scenario I would be viewed by many (of many races and backgrounds) as someone living out their racial fetish rather than just dating someone I liked. To be sure, many wouldn't see it that way, but the stereotype is a powerful one.

I deal with this a lot as the Asian in an Asian-Caucasian couple (see earlier post about the gay Asian social group).

My attitude is to just say: fuck'em (if they're hot).

I think most inter-racial couples can share some of their own experience about this. It's inescapable that the minority member of the pair will face some suspicions, and sometimes outright hostility, from their own social group. In the mean time, the one in the pair who belongs to the dominant social group will face suspicion of being an exploiter. That's just what we have to live with until the dynamics are different. Oddly, this is less true when it's a case of a white person marrying a SE Asian while in the SE Asian country. The dynamics there is very different than when the couple is here, which makes sense as the notion of race and power are very different between countries. I'm just pointing this out before someone tries to make a point about it. :P

[sologdin]

t's hypocritical. "Stereotypes are bad and forced on us by society... And white people objectify Asian women."

dude, if you're gonna adopt stalinist trade dress in your title, at least try to avoid damaging my marketing materials (by virtue of bad association/confusion of internet-dress) with fallacious arguments.

[Lord O' Bones]

Oddly, this is less true when it's a case of a white person marrying a SE Asian while in the SE Asian country. The dynamics there is very different than when the couple is here, which makes sense as the notion of race and power are very different between countries. I'm just pointing this out before someone tries to make a point about it. :P

Respectfully beg to differ here.

This may be true in China/ Hong Kong or Singapore, not sure about Thailand, Korea, Indonesia, Borneo Malaysia, Guam, Saipan, or the Philippines as I wasn't paying any attention. But I definitely encountered hostility in Japan on a fairly regular basis when out with a Japanese woman.

ETA: I only mention the countries/territories I've been to. Sorry if that seemed random.

Edit2: forgot Borneo is in Malaysia and inexplicably Singapore entirely.